392 réponses à ce sujet

[wulf3n]

Inverness Moon wrote...
You don't have the benefit of holding off the choice of what to do with the collector base until you know whether it is the last resort or not. It would take time to upgrade the Alliance fleet with the technology from the collector base. It's not some super weapon that you can hold off on using until you have no other choice. You have to make your choice then and there.

You don't seem to understand the situation you're in.

This is another dilemma, a so called "meta-gaming" that has been pointed out to me. If "I" was in this position, i would have kept the base, but not given it to TIM, maybe used my ability to destroy the base as leverage to insure his willingness to cooperate, and ultimately made sure the research done on the base was ethical, conducted properly and that all could benefit from the knowledge acquired...but i can't, due to the limitations of the games story line. Now i also know because of those same limitations that what i do won't have a major impact in the overall outcome.

So i end up with a simple decision, make TIM and Cerberus stronger, which could have negative repercussions, or destroy the base, that has seemingly no negative consequences.

[Inverness Moon]

wulf3n wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
You don't have the benefit of holding off the choice of what to do with the collector base until you know whether it is the last resort or not. It would take time to upgrade the Alliance fleet with the technology from the collector base. It's not some super weapon that you can hold off on using until you have no other choice. You have to make your choice then and there.

You don't seem to understand the situation you're in.

This is another dilemma, a so called "meta-gaming" that has been pointed out to me. If "I" was in this position, i would have kept the base, but not given it to TIM, maybe used my ability to destroy the base as leverage to insure his willingness to cooperate, and ultimately made sure the research done on the base was ethical, conducted properly and that all could benefit from the knowledge acquired...but i can't, due to the limitations of the games story line. Now i also know because of those same limitations that what i do won't have a major impact in the overall outcome.

So i end up with a simple decision, make TIM and Cerberus stronger, which could have negative repercussions, or destroy the base, that has seemingly no negative consequences.

All that stuff is what would happen in ME3. I think you're making some pretty incorrect assumptions. The consequences of destroying the base, and how you will be able to use the base if you keep it will all come in the next game.

Arijharn wrote...

NO IT'S THE PROMETHEUS DRIVER!!!!111!!!

Errr, what? 

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 24 juillet 2010 - 05:41 .

[wulf3n]

Inverness Moon wrote...
All that stuff is what would happen in ME3. I think you're making some pretty incorrect assumptions. The consequences of destroying the base, and how you will be able to use the base if you keep it will all come in the next game.

I'm sure there'll be consequences to Keeping/destroying the base, but none which will ultimately hinder my ability to stop the reapers. I would love it...if it did, but i doubt bioware will risk upsetting all the paragons out there for the sole purpose of making a deep, and thought provoking story.

[Inverness Moon]

wulf3n wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
All that stuff is what would happen in ME3. I think you're making some pretty incorrect assumptions. The consequences of destroying the base, and how you will be able to use the base if you keep it will all come in the next game.

I'm sure there'll be consequences to Keeping/destroying the base, but none which will ultimately hinder my ability to stop the reapers. I would love it...if it did, but i doubt bioware will risk upsetting all the paragons out there for the sole purpose of making a deep, and thought provoking story.

That is metagaming. I'm not concerned with that.

[wulf3n]

Inverness Moon wrote...
That is metagaming. I'm not concerned with that.

Isn't that what i just said?

[Christmas Ape]

Arijharn wrote...
Absolute nonsense. The collector base had collector weapons in it (collector beam rifles for instance, presumably with methods of their construction).

So does the SR-2 Normandy, between post-Horizon and the Collector's Edition. Cerberus technicians have even modified a Collector assault rifle to take thermal clips. No value added by the base.

Also, finding the way of Reaper manufacture is potentially quite useful (in comparison to well, ignorance). What if by understanding the method of how a Reaper shell is constructed (melted down organics for example) you could find a way to interfere with whatever individual minds of the Reaper collective contribute to the whole. Of course, I admit I'm reaching here, however lets assume it's a valid method, that's one more option allowed to you compared to simply destroying the base.

If you were reaching any farther you'd be scraping your knuckles on the advancing Reaper fleet.

One other thing too, the Collector's were never meant to be found, therefore you could argue that while the Collectors are instruments for the Reaper fleets, their discovery was not counted on to 'direct technological evolution' in the same way as the Mass Relays.

Irrelevant; I don't consider the Collector base a deliberate trap. I consider it a four hundred megaton planet-****** fusion warhead with a big red "on" switch left among cavemen. I consider it disaster in a box, but not a Reaper trap.

As to TIM, well... obviously I may be in the minority here, but I'm squarely in the frame of mind that due to our options (or lack thereof) in regards to methods/opportunities available to us in regards to the ending of ME2, then even if everyone's worse fears come to pass (TIM somehow leads humanity to complete dominance of other species in any/all way(s)) then that is still preferable to complete annihiliation at the hands (tentacles) of the Reaper menace... because you know, as long as those other species exist, they still have hope for a better future.

I don't think the Collector base is, at the end of the day, any help against the Reaper threat, given that between having some personal Collector weapons and letting EDI take a download romp through their computer system we have everything in it of note other than some corpses and the ReaperCo Juice-O-Matic. I do, however, think that handing it to tIM is a great way to bring about that first option once he feels he has the time to do so.

[Arijharn]

Christmas Ape wrote...
So does the SR-2 Normandy, between post-Horizon and the Collector's Edition. Cerberus technicians have even modified a Collector assault rifle to take thermal clips. No value added by the base.

Not the same thing, we know how to work Collector Beam Rifles because we aren't morons, that's not to say that we know how to manufacture more of them (which, IIRC, still eludes us). We know how to 'modify' something, that's not the same as 'mass producing' or even attempting to further understand it's inner workings by analysing its methods of construction.

Christmas Ape wrote...
If you were reaching any farther you'd be scraping your knuckles on the advancing Reaper fleet.

Yet, you don't see this as something that could be useful? Not to mention that we have to have some way to defeat the Reapers most insidious weapon; Indoctrination, and there aren't many avenues of that we could explore in any safer conditions.

Christmas Ape wrote...
I don't think the Collector base is, at the end of the day, any help against the Reaper threat, given that between having some personal Collector weapons and letting EDI take a download romp through their computer system we have everything in it of note other than some corpses and the ReaperCo Juice-O-Matic. I do, however, think that handing it to tIM is a great way to bring about that first option once he feels he has the time to do so.

I think that's rather unimaginative to be frank. Presumably the base was used to build their cruiser with that nice cannon, I think it's also way too premature to say that it has no intrinsic value to it.

[Inverness Moon]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Arijharn wrote...
Absolute nonsense. The collector base had collector weapons in it (collector beam rifles for instance, presumably with methods of their construction).

So does the SR-2 Normandy, between post-Horizon and the Collector's Edition. Cerberus technicians have even modified a Collector assault rifle to take thermal clips. No value added by the base.

Thermals clips are only for getting rid of heat. That is why vastly different weapons can use the same thermal clips. Rigging something like that is much easier than figuring out how to fuel the weapon or how it works. That is not a good example.

Christmas Ape wrote...

One other thing too, the Collector's were never meant to be found, therefore you could argue that while the Collectors are instruments for the Reaper fleets, their discovery was not counted on to 'direct technological evolution' in the same way as the Mass Relays.

Irrelevant; I don't consider the Collector base a deliberate trap. I consider it a four hundred megaton planet-****** fusion warhead with a big red "on" switch left among cavemen.

If you think that then I believe you are overestimating what the base is capable of. What do you base your assumptions on?

Christmas Ape wrote...

As to TIM, well... obviously I may be in the minority here, but I'm squarely in the frame of mind that due to our options (or lack thereof) in regards to methods/opportunities available to us in regards to the ending of ME2, then even if everyone's worse fears come to pass (TIM somehow leads humanity to complete dominance of other species in any/all way(s)) then that is still preferable to complete annihiliation at the hands (tentacles) of the Reaper menace... because you know, as long as those other species exist, they still have hope for a better future.

I don't think the Collector base is, at the end of the day, any help against the Reaper threat, given that between having some personal Collector weapons and letting EDI take a download romp through their computer system we have everything in it of note other than some corpses and the ReaperCo Juice-O-Matic. I do, however, think that handing it to tIM is a great way to bring about that first option once he feels he has the time to do so.

You're saying information on advanced technologies including directed energy weapons, and schematics on the reapers themselves isn't going to help defeat them? Bull****. Don't make assumptions about how much information EDI could have gained from the base before it was destroyed. And having collector weapons only means you have to try to figure out how they work that takes time and effort that could be skipped if you got the schematics from the base. That also doesn't mean you'll be able to immediately apply that technology to ships.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 24 juillet 2010 - 06:13 .

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

Shandepared wrote...

Christmas Ape seems to know a hell of a lot about that base despite not taking the time to study it. I wonder if he's a Reaper agent?

Be careful, you might get indoctrinated.

[Christmas Ape]

So getting Collector weapons isn't the same thing as having Collector weapons? Given there isn't a single sapient being on that entire base except during the suicide mission, I highly doubt there's a technical manual to particle beam weapons laying around the base. They're tools, husks Harbinger can borrow if he needs to but otherwise runs through the Collector General. The Reapers know how to make particle beam weapons, and they do so through the Collectors. No conceivable reason for schematics to be available with any greater ease than scanning the weapons you already have.

Yet, you don't see this as something that could be useful? Not to mention that we have to have some way to defeat the Reapers most insidious weapon; Indoctrination, and there aren't many avenues of that we could explore in any safer conditions.

I find it so implausible as to not be worth discussing. Putting asari in the melting pods might produce delicious Skittles in abundance, but it's also pretty goddamn unlikely and I don't mean to bring it up again.

And there's really no sign of indoctrination-related technology anywhere on the base - why would there be? The Collectors are beyond the need for indoctrination and the base is not intended as a trap.

I think that's rather unimaginative to be frank. Presumably the base was used to build their cruiser with that nice cannon, I think it's also way too premature to say that it has no intrinsic value to it.

There's no sign of ship-building facilities and it's not exactly a good territory to mine, so that's pure speculation.

As to the Collector cannon, the only advantage it appears to have over any presently employed ship-to-ship weapon is sustained fire. The Destiny Ascension and Sovereign are, to date, the only two ships in the entire Mass Effect universe shown to take a hit from ship-to-ship weapons and not suffer severe damage or even complete destruction. The only value sustained fire even seems to offer is "cuts big dramatic holes in the hull" and "can keep crew from escape pods". What Mass Effect ships need are better articulated weapons, like Sovereign's Thannix Fingers, not marginally more impressive bow guns with huge power draw.

Thermals clips are only for getting rid of heat. That is why vastly different weapons can use the same thermal clips. Rigging something like that is much easier than figuring out how to fuel the weapon or how it works. That is not a good example.

Redesigning a weapon based on unknown technology to operate with universal human thermal clips doesn't indicate a certain familiarity with the device? Who does Cerberus employ, Tech-Priests?

If you think that then I believe you are overestimating what the base is capable of. What do you base your assumptions on?

The fact that it makes Reapers. Collector base + humans = Reaper. That equation has no upside for people who aren't indoctrinated.

You're saying information on advanced technologies including directed energy weapons, and schematics on the reapers themselves isn't going to help defeat them?

I'm saying that these directed energy weapons are ultimately not much more effective than weapons which currently exist - the SR-2 completely spanks the Collector Cruiser when one considers the size difference and respective damage done - and believing the functionally mindless Collectors leave detailed technical schematics of their weapons strewn about the base is wishful thinking of the most "I didn't hear a word Mordin said about them" kind. I'm not even going to dignify "schematics of the Reapers themselves" - why would they possibly entrust that information to any being other than the member of their species directly orchestrating their reproduction?

[NephilimNexus]

Cerberus did not create the Geth nor start a war with them because they were too proud to just let go of the leash.

Cerberus did not trigger the Rachni invasion.

Cerberus did not uplife the Krogan to stop Rachni because they didn't want to do the heavy lifting themselves.  

Cerberus did not create the genophage to nearly sterilize the Krogan. 

Cerberus did not ignore the threat of Reapers.

Cerberus did not stand idly by while human colonies were attacked.

Cerberus did not write Shepard off as MIA/KIA.

Cerberus nearly bankrupted themselves to bring back Shepard, build a new Normandy and pay for it's new crew.

Cerberus thus made it possible for Shepard to stop Harbringer.

Without Cerberus, Sherpard would have remained dead and Harbringer would have won.

"As always, I will carry you through this, kicking and screaming, and in the end you will thank me for it."

[wulf3n]

NephilimNexus wrote...

Cerberus did not create the Geth nor start a war with them because they were too proud to just let go of the leash.

Cerberus did not trigger the Rachni invasion.

Cerberus did not uplife the Krogan to stop Rachni because they didn't want to do the heavy lifting themselves.  

Cerberus did not create the genophage to nearly sterilize the Krogan. 

Cerberus did not ignore the threat of Reapers.

Cerberus did not stand idly by while human colonies were attacked.

Cerberus did not write Shepard off as MIA/KIA.

Cerberus nearly bankrupted themselves to bring back Shepard, build a new Normandy and pay for it's new crew.

whoa! where'd all this come from?

NephilimNexus wrote...
Cerberus thus made it possible for Shepard to stop Harbringer.

Without Cerberus, Sherpard would have remained dead and Harbringer would have won.

"As always, I will carry you through this, kicking and screaming, and in the end you will thank me for it."

I dunno, to think shepard is the only one that can save the galaxy is kind of arrogant. I mean TIM being the intelligent person he is wouldn't have put all his eggs in one basket. I'm sure he has back up plans in case shepard fails.

edit: I know this is shepards story, and ultimately he'll have practically single handedly saved the galaxy, that doesn't necessarily mean he was the only person that could have.

Modifié par wulf3n, 24 juillet 2010 - 08:02 .

[Behindyounow]

I agree with Cerberus. Stick it to the Asari and Turians! Although leave the Salarians and other council races if you can.

[Kroesis-]

ShadowJ20 wrote...

mosor wrote...

ShadowJ20 wrote...

All Cerberus does is screw up experiments...except when resurrecting Shepard. If you give TIM the Collector base all he'll do is try to build another reaper and control it...but they'll screw up as always and it'll be time for Shepard and company to fix mistakes.

I always hear this accusation that cerberus wants to build another reaper. Where did this accusation come from? I never heard TIM or anyone else even suggest that in game. Actually the only place I even heard tthat Cerberus would do this insaine idea  (Outside some Cerberus haters on this forum) was on the gawd awful and innacurate Prima strategy guide.

With TIM anything is possible...wouldn't suprise me if he finds another way of fueling the Reaper (instead of liquifiying people)

Liquified people weren't fuel, they were to actually build the structure of the Reaper. I doubt that even TIM has the resources of a population of a planet the size of say, Earth, to build a Reaper in the same fashion. Besides, missing people of that magnitude would get noticed. Apparently even the collectors would have had to have hit Earth to complete the Reaper.

[Kroesis-]

ShadowJ20 wrote...

Most of this stuff is screw ups or led to very little use.  Only good things on the list are on the bottom 2. As for them bringing back Shepard, yeah they didn't screw that up because it's pretty much a given.

This is only the stuff that we know about.

[Christmas Ape]

ShadowJ20 wrote...
Most of this stuff is screw ups or led to very little use.

Some yes, some of unknown utility.

They kidnapped an Alliance admiral off the Citadel and assassinated him, which was then covered up. Fate of the assassination cell: unknown, assumed operational.

A highly placed military official, intent on exposing their organization, dies without political blowback. That's a success.

They have twice used thresher maws as traps for Alliance marines, with great success, once for initial hands-on research of the species' capabilities and once as an investigation-stalling tactic. Fate of the cells: one neutralized years after the fact, one unknown and assumed operational.

Utility of thresher maw research remains to be seen. They did, however, kill the crap out of Kahoku's men, which was the goal of that attack.

They unleased husk-creation technology on a remote pioneer team, resulting in husks. Purpose unknown. Fate of the research cell: unknown, assumed operational.

As the purpose is unknown, so the results remain.

They maintain high-risk research bases on remote, uninhabitable worlds with poor mineral resources and very little Alliance survey data. These research teams are exposed by Kahoku, possibly as the result of a Cerberus leak to shut down failed projects, and eliminated by Shepard and associates.

Either a failure or a flawless success, depending on the state of those projects before Shepard's arrival (but given they were dealing with uncontrollable "super-soldier" potentials, imminent failure seems likely).

They acquired 'properly matured' rachni from Binary Helix, indicating high-clearance connections within the corporation, and underestimated the intelligence of a hive-dwelling insect life form, operating on the presumption they were instinct-driven drones. One Cerberus remote facility lost, two Alliance listening posts attacked.

Granted this is in fact a screw-up, but a perfectly logical one. Until I had some kind of direct evidence to the contrary I assumed rachni soldiers and drones were in fact non-sapient.

Certain researchers, plagued by a poor moral compass, conduct torturous and lethal experiments on biotic potentials to explore the outer limits of the science. The facility is lost in a riot, permitting the most powerful human biotic alive (having been 'matured' at the facility) to escape.

We'll call this one a push. They did create the most powerful human biotic and then hid their surviving research team in an Alliance biotic studies project, but the facility itself was lost.

A research team developed successful understanding of geth language, and in pursuit of one two many shortcuts permitted several geth to network and activate an assortment of mobile platforms. Bear in mind, this also describes a certain quarian experiment from the first comma on.

Another push, and identical in failure to a quarian experiment. Given the gaps in relative experience between Cerberus and the quarians re: the geth, that's pretty damn impressive. And for once, Cerberus was working the more ethical experiment.

[Kroesis-]

ShadowJ20 wrote...

If Bioware decides to reveal anymore experiments they'll probably have similiar results like Overlord.

Possibly considering that it would be boring for the player if they're made to go to a planet to see a successful and uneventful experiment.

I'm waiting for missions based on stuff done by other groups, but Cerberus is a handy organisaion for Bioware to use for storytelling.

[mosor]

ShadowJ20 wrote...

Kroesis- wrote...

ShadowJ20 wrote...

Most of this stuff is screw ups or led to very little use.  Only good things on the list are on the bottom 2. As for them bringing back Shepard, yeah they didn't screw that up because it's pretty much a given.

This is only the stuff that we know about.

If Bioware decides to reveal anymore experiments they'll probably have similiar results like Overlord.

However I will admit that they did do something right..I think Miranda and Jacob did do a mission together (not the one with Ish) that involved saving the Council or something.  You have to talk to Jacob on the Normandy.  Most likey a Cerberus mission but I find it ironic Cerberus would do anything because it didn't involve  saving any humans.  Correct me if I'm wrong

They built you a new normandy and managed to intergrate reaper tech and build EDI. That's something. Besides, to the player, Cerberus experiments are need to know. You don't need to know all their sucessess unless that success could help you on your mission. You don't need to know all their failures either. A lot of simple failures could have been  handled by someone else. You know about big cerberus failures because TIM thinks you're the best person for the job to solve them. In short, we know mostly about Cerberus failures because in addition to fighting the reapers, Sheppard is also the Cerberus cleaner.

As for Jacob and the Batarians, Cerberus sent Miranada to help Jacob with that incident. Cerberus doesn't hate aliens. It wants humanity to be the most powerful. It's not mutually exclusive. It's like sayinfg some CIA director who wants to keep the USA as the sole superpower, must by default hate Chinese, German and Indian people because they are competitors.

[Estelindis]

I am not pro-Cerberus.  I don't agree with their goals, and I most certainly don't agree with their methods.