392 réponses à ce sujet

[chapa3]

Shandepared wrote...

Of-course the turians aren't robots. If they were that rigid and uncreative they'd have never developed space travel.

The turians were the same race that used the genophage without batting an eye (salarians created it, but it were the turians that actually used it). If they are willing to use bio-warfare, im sure they have no quams bout stealth systems.

[chapa3]

I do agree on one thing with nightwriter. If Cerberus must exist, it must be controlled by a government. A private clandestine organization is just asking for trouble. The fact that Illusive Eyes said that "Cerberus Is Humanity" is just proof that Illusive Man could easily be on a power trip.

[angj57]

Nightwriter wrote...

Cerberus supports Shand's way of thinking, which is, anyone who can grasp power should grasp power, everyone has the right to take power if they can take it, and they should be in power because might is right.

In other words, they have not evolved or progressed past an animalistic way of looking at the universe. They are still, for the most part, animals. Surprise that they stoop to levels we would ascribe to animals.

I believe that as evolved creatures we should place principles upon our patterns of behavior and our ways of existence. We should decide to make life more than just animalistic survival of the fittest; we're not beasts. We can take what we want, but we should choose not to, because the more we grow the more we choose to be better than animals.

It would be nice if the Krogan had remembered this before rampaging through the galaxy, if the Salarians and Turians had remembered this before unleashing a devastating, arguably genocidal biological weapon on the Krogan, if the Batarians remembered this before declaring that slavery is an essential part of their "culture", if the Quarians had rememebred this before trying to create a slave race and then turing them into angry rebels by trying to wipe them out, etc. Humanity is part of the galactic community, and it has to base its actions on the realities of that community rather than pure ideals.

There is a duality to political existence. Real life countries have peace-corps, diplomatic corps, foreign aid programs, while at the same time having militaries, nuclear weapons, and black-ops organizations. In Mass Effect, the Council has its diplomacy and then they have the Spectres. The duality between the Alliance and Cerberus is similar. In my opinion, they both need each other, whether the two sides like it or not. As I said in my other post, I don't think the Alliance is fully up to the task of defending humanity's legitimate interests.

And no, I don't approve of some of Cerberus's experiments, but that doesn't mean the organization should be destroyed or eliminated.

[mosor]

chapa3 wrote...

I do agree on one thing with nightwriter. If Cerberus must exist, it must be controlled by a government. A private clandestine organization is just asking for trouble. The fact that Illusive Eyes said that "Cerberus Is Humanity" is just proof that Illusive Man could easily be on a power trip.

There is a good possibility Cerberus is still part of the alliance. I wouldn't be suprised if that was the case.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

chapa3 wrote...

I do agree on one thing with nightwriter. If Cerberus must exist, it must be controlled by a government. A private clandestine organization is just asking for trouble. The fact that Illusive Eyes said that "Cerberus Is Humanity" is just proof that Illusive Man could easily be on a power trip.

I don't know why people are so quick to hate on private organizations yet inexplicably so trusting of government.

[chapa3]

Shandepared wrote...


I used to think so but then another poster pointed out that maybe Cerberus' freedom was its primary advantage over its competitors. 

Free market, baby.

One huge problem. It's impossible to white wash if something goes bad. Also impossible to regulate, Illusive Man has the only say, and he is not exactly the best at damage control.

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

It should be a group that solidifies our formidableness and looks out for human safety and human protection, not human safety and human protection + human domination.

How will humanity advance if not by actively attempting to increase its status and influence?

I'm all for raising humanity's status and influence, but it comes down to knowing when to stop.

When we've reached the status, influence, and respect level of the turians or asari, I think that's enough. Anything beyond that is greed, ambition, desire for unfair domination, etc.

Hell, if human domination didn't mean cruelty or unfairness to the other races, I might not even have a problem with it. But that's not the future of human domination I see in TIM's plans.

[DarkSeraphym]

chapa3 wrote...

I do agree on one thing with nightwriter. If Cerberus must exist, it must be controlled by a government. A private clandestine organization is just asking for trouble. The fact that Illusive Eyes said that "Cerberus Is Humanity" is just proof that Illusive Man could easily be on a power trip.

To be fair, there isn't much knowledge as to what Cerberus is just yet since it has been elaborated upon in a slight form in Mass Effect and then much more in Mass Effect 2. There are theories floating around that Cerberus may have never went rogue from the Alliance at all and more or less functions as a "black ops" organization on the behalf of the Alliance while simultaneously maintaining the persona of a rogue, private organization so that the Alliance would not be directly in trouble for anything done on the behalf of Cerberus.

Likewise, these same theories also maintain that the Armistan Banes mentioned in Mass Effect is likely The Illusive Man. These two theories are quite compatible since all Dr. Michel can really tell you is that Banes more or less vanished after being assigned by the Alliance military to a classified project. All that is known past that is that Kohaku's men found the body of Banes and after that were attacked by Cerberus. There is little more known after that. These theories maintain that either Banes was never actually found dead, or that it's possible that Banes was indeed killed but could have been brought back from a similar Lazarus Project that Shepard was brought back from and as such had to maintain a new identity.

They are merely theories at this point, but if you look at some threads on them you will see that there is some evidence behind both arguments. Not to mention, both of these theories are very compatible with one another. Really, I was just bringing it to everyone's attention to show just how little of Cerberus we actually know.

[chapa3]

mosor wrote...

There is a good possibility Cerberus is still part of the alliance. I wouldn't be suprised if that was the case.

Most likely not. I believe EDI (and/or the books) stated how Illusive Man gets his money from private business big shots and former alliance big shots. And Cerberus makes profit off private fronts. Seems to privatized to have any connection with the alliance, aside from moles and sympathizers on both ends.

"I don't know why people are so quick to hate on private organizations yet inexplicably so trusting of government."

Like I said, more responsibility, means that Alliance would be at the least more careful. Cerberus isn't as concerned with being caught with AI experimentation and biotic testing as the alliance, considering the alliance already had things blow up in their face.


"He always gets Shepard on the scene to clean up the mess before any real harm can be done so I'd say he is actually quite good at damage control. "

Yeah, Pragia was such a great cleanup...

Imagine there was no Shepard. Things would get ugly.

Modifié par chapa3, 22 juillet 2010 - 08:53 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Shandepared wrote...

chapa3 wrote...

Like I said, more responsibility, means that Alliance would be at the least more careful.

Yeah, if only that were actually true.

Exactly. If anyone believes that a government is accountable to its people in practice, they are mistaken.

[chapa3]

Shandepared wrote...

Yeah, if only that were actually true.

Well, Alliance is already on somewhat thin ice after they were caught researching AI and hit with sanctions.

"Exactly. If anyone believes that a government is accountable to its people in practice, they are mistaken."

I'm not refering to people, I'm refering to them getting caught.

Modifié par chapa3, 22 juillet 2010 - 08:56 .

[DarkSeraphym]

chapa3 wrote...

mosor wrote...

There is a good possibility Cerberus is still part of the alliance. I wouldn't be suprised if that was the case.

Most likely not. I believe EDI (and/or the books) stated how Illusive Man gets his money from private business big shots and former alliance big shots. And Cerberus makes profit off private fronts. Seems to privatized to have any connection with the alliance, aside from moles and sympathizers on both ends.

"I don't know why people are so quick to hate on private organizations yet inexplicably so trusting of government."

Like I said, more responsibility, means that Alliance would be at the least more careful. Cerberus isn't as concerned with being caught with AI experimentation and biotic testing as the alliance, considering the alliance already had things blow up in their face.


"He always gets Shepard on the scene to clean up the mess before any real harm can be done so I'd say he is actually quite good at damage control. "

Yeah, Pragia was such a great cleanup.

Are you aware that the Human Alliance gets its money as well from private business big shots since part of the Systems Alliance Charter is also made up of the private human corporations that also make up the economic sector of the Systems Alliance? Corporations are just as much a part of the System Alliances funding as it is the funder of Cerberus.

This argument is actually used as evidence that Cerberus and the Systems Alliance could still be related to one another since they both receive their funding from similar sectors.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 22 juillet 2010 - 08:59 .

[Giggles_Manically]

No one group in Mass Effect has my support. They are all idiots who cant see past their own noses.



This man shall be my guide and example in the dark:

[Nightwriter]

angj57 wrote...

It would be nice if the Krogan had remembered this before rampaging through the galaxy, if the Salarians and Turians had remembered this before unleashing a devastating, arguably genocidal biological weapon on the Krogan, if the Batarians remembered this before declaring that slavery is an essential part of their "culture", if the Quarians had rememebred this before trying to create a slave race and then turing them into angry rebels by trying to wipe them out, etc. Humanity is part of the galactic community, and it has to base its actions on the realities of that community rather than pure ideals.

There is a duality to political existence. Real life countries have peace-corps, diplomatic corps, foreign aid programs, while at the same time having militaries, nuclear weapons, and black-ops organizations. In Mass Effect, the Council has its diplomacy and then they have the Spectres. The duality between the Alliance and Cerberus is similar. In my opinion, they both need each other, whether the two sides like it or not. As I said in my other post, I don't think the Alliance is fully up to the task of defending humanity's legitimate interests.

And no, I don't approve of some of Cerberus's experiments, but that doesn't mean the organization should be destroyed or eliminated.

So what? You want to base your behavior off of everyone else's? They made mistakes, so you shouldn't care about making mistakes? The quarians screwed up, but I could make an argument for them. The krogan were uplifted before their time. The turians and salarians were responding to a galactic threat. The batarians are scum anyway. Basically, sh*t happens. It doesn't mean you should lower your standard of behavior.

I'm not pretending we don't need doers of dark deeds, I'm not pretending we don't need these kinds of groups. I'm not pretending we can do the right thing every time or that we can make it pretty-picture-perfect. I'm only saying the pursuit of perfection is what's important, just as the pursuit of justice is what's important. If Cerberus's injustices are known, they should be fought against.

And for the record, I don't think the organization should be destroyed or eliminated, I think it should be put under new management.

[chapa3]

DarkSeraphym wrote...


Are you aware that the Human Alliance gets its money as well from private business big shots since part of the Systems Alliance Charter is also made up of the private human corporations that also make up the economic sector of the Systems Alliance? Corporations are just as much a part of the System Alliances funding as it is the funder of Cerberus.

Wasn't aware of that. Interesting. Maybe Cerberus is part of Alliance. Genius too, could always claim not to be responsible and reap the research at the same time. Zero accountability.

[Giggles_Manically]

Who wont be suprised when Cerberus is actually part of the alliance, and the alliance actually let cerberus do that to get an edge, while keeping a clean face. I hate conspiracy theories but this makes sense that powerful people want cerberus doing terrible things to give humans an edge in the galaxy, while making humans as a whole look nice.

[DarkSeraphym]

chapa3 wrote...

DarkSeraphym wrote...


Are you aware that the Human Alliance gets its money as well from private business big shots since part of the Systems Alliance Charter is also made up of the private human corporations that also make up the economic sector of the Systems Alliance? Corporations are just as much a part of the System Alliances funding as it is the funder of Cerberus.

Wasn't aware of that. Interesting. Maybe Cerberus is part of Alliance. Genius too, could always claim not to be responsible and reap the research at the same time. Zero accountability.

Precisely. Unlike the STG and the Asari Commandos that are publicly known to be involved with a government, Cerberus is able to get away with the more drastic things it does because it is believed to be rogue. If the STG or the Commandos did some similar activities, the Salarian Union or the Asari Republics would become implicated in the public eye. However, Cerberus is believed to be separate from the Systems Alliance so the Alliance has zero accountability for the actions of Cerberus. In a sense, it makes Cerberus the "perfect" black ops military organization.

[chapa3]

Maybe Illusive Man saying "Cerberus Is Humanity" is more cryptic then I thought.

[Whatever42]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

No one group in Mass Effect has my support. They are all idiots who cant see past their own noses.

This man shall be my guide and example in the dark:

Definately a paragade.

Mal: If anyone gets nosy, just, you know, shoot 'em.
Zoe: Shoot 'em?
Mal: Politely.

[DarkSeraphym]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Who wont be suprised when Cerberus is actually part of the alliance, and the alliance actually let cerberus do that to get an edge, while keeping a clean face. I hate conspiracy theories but this makes sense that powerful people want cerberus doing terrible things to give humans an edge in the galaxy, while making humans as a whole look nice.

I won't be. Too much of the ME Universe adds up to the point that I will actually be more surprised if the Alliance and Cerberus actually don't have anything to do with one another. If anyone is interested, there is a thread by a user named something Zulu that had a very extensive theory on the subject. I don't want to spam this thread with some key evidence posted on that particular thread, but it makes for a spectacular read.
Update: I found a link to that thread.
http://social.biowar...index/1600890/1

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 22 juillet 2010 - 09:09 .