392 réponses à ce sujet

[Giggles_Manically]

If the only say 65% of the completed reaper FETUS took over 100,000 people to make where the hell is Cerberus going to get MILLIONS more to finish it?



A charity rumage sale? They number only around 150, now with streched resources its not feasible for them to pull this off. Someone is bound to say hmm things are sure quieter around here I wonder why?

[Kroesis-]

Freakaz0idx wrote...
Well Cerberus is always trying insane ideas and failing.  I don't think anyone would be surprised if we have to kill some messed up malfunctioning reaper because of Cerberus. 

Always? Are you certain? Does Shepard get invited to all the Cerberus cells and their research or just the ones that go wrong? I don't recall getting an invite to the Cerberus staff Christmas party and listening to their banter about how we did this, we did that, well we had to call in Shepard to nuke the place.

Unless you're aware of all the things that Cerberus are doing, you cannot say that they always try insane things and always fail.

Oh and +1 on the Pro-Cerbeus count. Mind you I think the leadership could be better... Shepard for Cerberus leader.

Modifié par Kroesis-, 24 juillet 2010 - 02:08 .

[Christmas Ape]

Zulu_DFA wrote...



You see, there is no "incriminating evidence" whatsoever against Cerberus, designating them as "perpetrators" instead of just ignorant witnesses on this particular instance of Chaska colony. Other than the popular hatred for them, that is. Like, you know, in case of Socrates: he wasn't found guilty of violating any of Athens' laws, but the mob wanted him dead, so a new law with retro active force was invented specifically for him and he died. Or of Jesus Christ: Pontius Pilatus thought that he was innocent, but the mob wanted him dead, so, WTH, who needs due process anyway? Panem et circenses!!! Totally justified, in-game and IRL, I say, but when we here on a real life game forum discuss the in-game fictional facts, why does it hurt so much to get them straight?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You have mistaken "agree with me" for "get [the facts] straight".

Do we have a clear log of events at Chasca? Not that we are permitted to read in person, but what Shepard finds leads the narration to pronounce them guilty. Combined with the Cerberus track record, one version of events is far more likely.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Cerberus gives me money, crew, ship and free reign to do what I want to do without an increase in repercussions from my previous job. Sounds like a swell career change to me.

[Arijharn]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Spectre_907 wrote...

"They were building a Reaper. That knowledge, that framework, can save us." - The Illusive Man
"Don't be short sighted. Our best chance against the Reapers is to turn their own resources against them." - The Illusive Man

"By using our technology you develop along the paths we desire". - Sovreign

Ordinarily I might agree with you, but considering we don't really have a timetable for when the Reapers will show up en masse it's quite frankly stupid to throw away whatever our 'edge' (since we know for sure current weapon fire is largely ineffectual against Reaper armaments) because we might be hesitant on following technology on paths it's 'benefactor' supplied.

Which brings me to my next point. Surely you can see the difference between giant space based neutral technology (i.e., those that responds to simple commands given to it in presumably basic language (binary)) that were clearly meant to be found because they are impossible to miss (Mass Relay's, the Citadel) and space based weapon systems on a sentient warship that clearly is meant to dominate and destroy all 'hostile' targets and usually hides out of sight until they are needed.


In case you don't get what I'm about, let me further explain; one was meant to be found, the other... not so much. Therefore technology gained from the second source could be considered 'less suspect' for the simple reason it wasn't supposed to be shared. Incidentally, I'd like to remind you of the fact that the Protheans basically developed their 'own' version of the Mass Relay, which allowed yourself (and Saren) to use a Mass Relay that was wholly independant of the Reaper network, and thus circumventing their inbuilt 'traps.'

[Freakaz0idx]

Kroesis- wrote...

Freakaz0idx wrote...
Well Cerberus is always trying insane ideas and failing.  I don't think anyone would be surprised if we have to kill some messed up malfunctioning reaper because of Cerberus. 

Always? Are you certain? Does Shepard get invited to all the Cerberus cells and their research or just the ones that go wrong? I don't recall getting an invite to the Cerberus staff Christmas party and listening to their banter about how we did this, we did that, well we had to call in Shepard to nuke the place.

Unless you're aware of all the things that Cerberus are doing, you cannot say that they always try insane things and always fail.

Oh and +1 on the Pro-Cerbeus count. Mind you I think the leadership could be better... Shepard for Cerberus leader.

Okay then, only every piece of content related to the game, excluding the Lazarus project. Happy?

Modifié par Freakaz0idx, 24 juillet 2010 - 02:23 .

[Christmas Ape]

Okay then, only every piece of content related to the game, excluding the Lazarus project. Happy?

Or phrased another way, "you only learn about Cerberus operations in the past tense, and then only the ones events lead you directly to". In the intelligence community, that's success.

[Count Viceroy]

Arijharn wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...

Spectre_907 wrote...

"They were building a Reaper. That knowledge, that framework, can save us." - The Illusive Man
"Don't be short sighted. Our best chance against the Reapers is to turn their own resources against them." - The Illusive Man

"By using our technology you develop along the paths we desire". - Sovreign

Ordinarily I might agree with you, but considering we don't really have a timetable for when the Reapers will show up en masse it's quite frankly stupid to throw away whatever our 'edge' (since we know for sure current weapon fire is largely ineffectual against Reaper armaments) because we might be hesitant on following technology on paths it's 'benefactor' supplied.

Which brings me to my next point. Surely you can see the difference between giant space based neutral technology (i.e., those that responds to simple commands given to it in presumably basic language (binary)) that were clearly meant to be found because they are impossible to miss (Mass Relay's, the Citadel) and space based weapon systems on a sentient warship that clearly is meant to dominate and destroy all 'hostile' targets and usually hides out of sight until they are needed.


In case you don't get what I'm about, let me further explain; one was meant to be found, the other... not so much. Therefore technology gained from the second source could be considered 'less suspect' for the simple reason it wasn't supposed to be shared. Incidentally, I'd like to remind you of the fact that the Protheans basically developed their 'own' version of the Mass Relay, which allowed yourself (and Saren) to use a Mass Relay that was wholly independant of the Reaper network, and thus circumventing their inbuilt 'traps.'

Fair enough, and to play the devils advocate, the thanix cannon is a living example of this, so to speak. I guess on a fundamental level, I don't trust the Illusive man enough to hand that kind of power over to him. It might be a tactical error, but then again giving him access to something like that could end up making things worse. Who knows what other traps the reapers have in store for organics who fiddle with their tech, they've proven quite adapt in this field before. Cerberus could just as easily develop something out of that tech that spells our doom, and they wouldn't even realise it until it was too late. 

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 24 juillet 2010 - 02:34 .

[Arijharn]

Count Viceroy wrote...
Fair enough, and to play the devils advocate, the thanix cannon is a living example of this, so to speak. I guess on a fundamental level, I don't trust the Illusive man enough to hand that kind of power over to him. It might be a tactical error, but then again giving him access to something like that could end up making things worse. Who knows what other traps the reapers have in store for organics who fiddle with their tech, they've proven quite adapt in this field before. Cerberus could just as easily develop something out of that tech that spells our doom, and they wouldn't even realise it until it was too late. 

Failing to do something because you fear the consequences of what might happen is backwards reasoning in my opinion, but there is some merit at least in being hesitant to trust TIM. In my opinion, my fear of the Reapers and what they represent (galactic mass genocide etc) wholly eclipses any misgivings I have about Cerberus' end motivations.

Although entirely fanciful, maybe there will be an option to 'leak' weapon design specs to other manufacturers (i.e., to companies that would be above suspicion against being one of Cerberus' front companies, perhaps Elanus Risk Control Services? If memory serves, isn't that a Turian weapons provider?) anyway.

I trust TIM in doing what he can to stop the Reaper menace but that's as far as I get really. I find it to be highly implausible however that should he get the Collector base and all it's myriad of secrets that afterwards he'd want to conquer the rest of the galaxy though because so much time has passed and people are generally used to the concept of 'equal power.' Despite TIM being highly charismatic, he can't actually control people's hearts and minds, therefore there would be a lot of internal resistance to the Alliance (and note; alliance, not cerberus) suddenly deciding that they want to be top-dog (at the expense of everyone else)

[Count Viceroy]

Honestly, I'd rather go down fighting than giving that guy that much power, I honestly believe he'll do too much damage with that tech. Something about him just doesn't sit well with me. Call me foolish for letting it get personal but there you go.
WIth humans being pretty much set for becoming a powerhouse however you ended Me1, giving TIM even more toys in ME2 sets up a pretty obvious script for ME3 imo. That man will try his best to get his way, and if he doesn't succeed he'll take humanity down with him. It's not humanity best interests that matters for him, it's his vision of humanity, ie him or nothing. I think all the experiements shows this quite well. There's also the plot in the upcoming book to consider.

There's also some theories about cerberus being suported by the alliance already and what ever implications that brings...

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 24 juillet 2010 - 03:38 .

[wulf3n]

Arijharn wrote...
Failing to do something because you fear the consequences of what might happen is backwards reasoning in my opinion,

perhaps, but i would call it a result of millions of years of evolution.
I think it comes down to a Risk vs. Reward situation.

example: Would you drink a strange colored liquid that has a pleasant smell? to not drink it because it might be poison is technically backwards reasoning, but the smart thing to do. (give it to someone stupid you know, let them drink it )

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

wulf3n wrote...

Arijharn wrote...
Failing to do something because you fear the consequences of what might happen is backwards reasoning in my opinion,

perhaps, but i would call it a result of millions of years of evolution.
I think it comes down to a Risk vs. Reward situation.

example: Would you drink a strange colored liquid that has a pleasant smell? to not drink it because it might be poison is technically backwards reasoning, but the smart thing to do. (give it to someone stupid you know, let them drink it )

Isn't it instinct?

[Inverness Moon]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Honestly, I'd rather go down fighting than giving that guy that much power, I honestly believe he'll do too much damage with that tech. Something about him just doesn't sit well with me. Call me foolish for letting it get personal but there you go.
WIth humans being pretty much set for becoming a powerhouse however you ended Me1, giving TIM even more toys in ME2 sets up a pretty obvious script for ME3 imo. That man will try his best to get his way, and if he doesn't succeed he'll take humanity down with him. It's not humanity best interests that matters for him, it's his vision of humanity, ie him or nothing. I think all the experiements shows this quite well. There's also the plot in the upcoming book to consider.

There's also some theories about cerberus being suported by the alliance already and what ever implications that brings...

Get over yourself, seriously. This isn't just about you. The reapers have perpetuated a cycle of extinction for tens of millions of years that has resulted in hundreds of trillions in casualties at the very least. And now you want to throw away opportunities that could help prevent your species and the rest of the galaxy from becoming statistics on a list that no-one will ever remember because you are worried about what TIM might do with the technology? Get real.

Anyhow, I think people that make that decision aren't playing from the in-character perspective that they maybe should be. Even your team members will agree with you if you blow up the base. If I could I'd get in their faces and tell them exactly what is at stake because it doesn't seemed to have clicked for them.

wulf3n wrote...

Arijharn wrote...
Failing to do something because you fear the consequences of what might happen is backwards reasoning in my opinion,

perhaps, but i would call it a result of millions of years of evolution.
I think it comes down to a Risk vs. Reward situation.

example: Would you drink a strange colored liquid that has a pleasant smell? to not drink it because it might be poison is technically backwards reasoning, but the smart thing to do. (give it to someone stupid you know, let them drink it )

That is not comparable to your choice at the end of ME2.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 24 juillet 2010 - 04:33 .

[Christmas Ape]

Inverness Moon wrote...
Anyhow, I think people that make that decision aren't playing from the in-character perspective that they maybe should be. Even your team members will agree with you if you blow up the base. If I could I'd get in their faces and tell them exactly what is at stake because it doesn't seemed to have clicked for them.

I think they've realized what's at stake, actually. Giving an ultra-nationalist, openly biased, megalomaniac his very own Golden Ticket to being the next galaxy-scale threat.

And I say this as, generally speaking, a Cerberus backer. I think tIM is exactly the man we need with the resources he has available, but I don't think giving him Plan B of the Reaper Extinction Agenda is in anyone's best interests. That station's machinery has no defensible purpose.

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 24 juillet 2010 - 04:31 .

[Arijharn]

Part of the problem Inverness is that while I absolutely agree with you, obviously pure Paragon players will be able to soundly defeat the Reapers, even if their reasoning I personally find to be distasteful and they well, squandered, any rights to technological parity with the invading fleets.

[Arijharn]

To me the equation is sorta like this:



Reapers = galactic genocide.

TIM = (possible) human dominance.



I don't think A = B at all...

[Inverness Moon]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
Anyhow, I think people that make that decision aren't playing from the in-character perspective that they maybe should be. Even your team members will agree with you if you blow up the base. If I could I'd get in their faces and tell them exactly what is at stake because it doesn't seemed to have clicked for them.

I think they've realized what's at stake, actually. Giving an ultra-nationalist, openly biased, megalomaniac his very own Golden Ticket to being the next galaxy-scale threat.

And I say this as, generally speaking, a Cerberus backer. I think tIM is exactly the man we need with the resources he has available, but I don't think giving him Plan B of the Reaper Extinction Agenda is in anyone's best interests. That station's machinery has no defensible purpose.

You think TIM could become a threat worse than the reapers? I think he would be flattered if he knew you thought that. But I don't think there is a chance of that at all.

TIM is just one man, he may have a lot of resources, but neither he nor Cerberus alone could use the technology from that base to stop the reapers. It would have to be shared with the rest of the Alliance because they have the ships that would be using the technology against the reapers in a direct confrontation.

[wulf3n]

Inverness Moon wrote...

wulf3n wrote...
example: Would you drink a strange colored liquid that has a pleasant smell? to not drink it because it might be poison is technically backwards reasoning, but the smart thing to do. (give it to someone stupid you know, let them drink it )

That is not comparable to your choice at the end of ME2.

I understand that, the whole point was an exaggeration.

Arijharn wrote...

To me the equation is sorta like this:

Reapers = galactic genocide.
TIM = (possible) human dominance.

I don't think A = B at all...

I'm not technically disagreeing with anything, just trying to point out that the decision isn't as simple as people seem to think it is. While the Collector base may contain tech, that could be crucial to the upcoming war, giving it to someone as dangerous as TIM goes against a lot of peoples "instincts" as MTN Dew Fanatic correctly put it.

[wulf3n]

Inverness Moon wrote...
You think TIM could become a threat worse than the reapers? I think he would be flattered if he knew you thought that. But I don't think there is a chance of that at all.

Ok this is where a lot of people seem to be getting the wrong impression. Just because some of us see TIM as a potential "threat" to the galaxy, doesn't mean we think TIM is a greater threat than the reapers. IF that were the case TIM wouldn't need shepard.

So while fighting the reapers, giving TIM anything that makes him stronger would only be a last resort! for me at least.

[mosor]

Spectre_907 wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...

Spectre_907 wrote...

"They were building a Reaper. That knowledge, that framework, can save us." - The Illusive Man
"Don't be short sighted. Our best chance against the Reapers is to turn their own resources against them." - The Illusive Man

"By using our technology you evolve along the paths we desire". - Sovreign

Precisely.

Let me reply to both your points at once.

1. That quote doesn't mean "Lets build a reaper and use it against other reapers". It means "They were building
reapers, the knowledge of how they are built and work may be the key to defeating them" As for the collector base. It's filled with resources and information. How the hell is cerberus, a group of less then a couple hundred people going to round up millions of people to build one reaper?

2."By using our technology you evolve along the paths we desire" We already used their tech and evolved along the path they desired. The galaxy was ripe for the pikcing 2 years ago. Aquire more technology than they intended, then you become a wolf, not some lamb they planned to slaughter.

[wulf3n]

mosor wrote...
 How the hell is cerberus, a group of less then a couple hundred people going to round up millions of people to build one reaper?

I always wondered something about reapers, They contain thousands if not more "programs", for lack of a better word, within them, does that mean, that each individual that is used in their construction have some form of consciousness within the reaper? cos if it does i reckon to TIM could put up fliers asking for volunteers and get enough people...hell i'd sign up.

Modifié par wulf3n, 24 juillet 2010 - 05:01 .

[Christmas Ape]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
Anyhow, I think people that make that decision aren't playing from the in-character perspective that they maybe should be. Even your team members will agree with you if you blow up the base. If I could I'd get in their faces and tell them exactly what is at stake because it doesn't seemed to have clicked for them.

I think they've realized what's at stake, actually. Giving an ultra-nationalist, openly biased, megalomaniac his very own Golden Ticket to being the next galaxy-scale threat.

And I say this as, generally speaking, a Cerberus backer. I think tIM is exactly the man we need with the resources he has available, but I don't think giving him Plan B of the Reaper Extinction Agenda is in anyone's best interests. That station's machinery has no defensible purpose.

You think TIM could become a threat worse than the reapers?

No, but I think handing him the single worst device that may have ever existed sets him up to be next.

TIM is just one man, he may have a lot of resources, but neither he nor Cerberus alone could use the technology from that base to stop the reapers. It would have to be shared with the rest of the Alliance because they have the ships that would be using the technology against the reapers in a direct confrontation.

How exactly is human mousse going to stop the Reapers? The base had no weapons, no sensors, no actual kinetic barriers - basically a complete lack of defensive technologies we could study. It's a place to liquify human beings and turn them into layers of bonded carbon Reaper-metal, plus a computer system EDI can already hack. At worst, Cerberus will adapt the human-smelting portions to smelt something else - turians, if I had to bet - and at best it's a useless abomination. The Illusive Man wants it in Cerberus hands because he's an amoral opportunist, and it will do no-one an ounce of good to hand it to him.

[Inverness Moon]

wulf3n wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
You think TIM could become a threat worse than the reapers? I think he would be flattered if he knew you thought that. But I don't think there is a chance of that at all.

Ok this is where a lot of people seem to be getting the wrong impression. Just because some of us see TIM as a potential "threat" to the galaxy, doesn't mean we think TIM is a greater threat than the reapers. IF that were the case TIM wouldn't need shepard.

So while fighting the reapers, giving TIM anything that makes him stronger would only be a last resort! for me at least.

You don't have the benefit of holding off the choice of what to do with the collector base until you know whether it is the last resort or not. It would take time to upgrade the Alliance fleet with the technology from the collector base. It's not some super weapon that you can hold off on using until you have no other choice. You have to make your choice then and there.

You don't seem to understand the situation you're in.

Christmas Ape wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

You think TIM could become a threat worse than the reapers?

No, but I think handing him the single worst device that may have ever existed sets him up to be next.

Based on that I think you're either overestimating TIM's capabilities and/or overestimating what the base can be used for.

So please explain your reasoning.

Christmas Ape wrote...

TIM is just one man, he may have a lot of resources, but neither he nor Cerberus alone could use the technology from that base to stop the reapers. It would have to be shared with the rest of the Alliance because they have the ships that would be using the technology against the reapers in a direct confrontation.

How exactly is human mousse going to stop the Reapers? The base had no weapons, no sensors, no actual kinetic barriers - basically a complete lack of defensive technologies we could study. It's a place to liquify human beings and turn them into layers of bonded carbon Reaper-metal, plus a computer system EDI can already hack. At worst, Cerberus will adapt the human-smelting portions to smelt something else - turians, if I had to bet - and at best it's a useless abomination. The Illusive Man wants it in Cerberus hands because he's an amoral opportunist, and it will do no-one an ounce of good to hand it to him.

The answer is quite obvious. If the base can build reapers then it would have information and their defensive and offensive technologies. If not on the reapers then it should have information about collector technologies which is better than nothing.

And I think you forgot about those oculus things that were hidden in the debris field that can shoot directed energy beams right through your ship and kill one of your team members if you don't properly upgrade the ship. Those seem pretty valuable to me. I'm sure the schematics for those are also in the base.

Also, I think it is safe to say that the collector base was used to build their ship, you know, the one that easily destroyed the Normandy SR1.

As for the idea that TIM would use the base to melt down some other species like the turians, that is nonsense. I shouldn't even have to explain why it would be a bad idea for TIM to abduct hundreds of thousands or millions of turians to use to build what exactly? A reaper? Those things that the rest of the galaxy and/or the Alliance fleet is going to be arming themselves to destroy.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 24 juillet 2010 - 05:37 .

[Arijharn]

Christmas Ape wrote...
How exactly is human mousse going to stop the Reapers? The base had no weapons, no sensors, no actual kinetic barriers - basically a complete lack of defensive technologies we could study. It's a place to liquify human beings and turn them into layers of bonded carbon Reaper-metal, plus a computer system EDI can already hack. At worst, Cerberus will adapt the human-smelting portions to smelt something else - turians, if I had to bet - and at best it's a useless abomination. The Illusive Man wants it in Cerberus hands because he's an amoral opportunist, and it will do no-one an ounce of good to hand it to him.

Absolute nonsense. The collector base had collector weapons in it (collector beam rifles for instance, presumably with methods of their construction). Also, finding the way of Reaper manufacture is potentially quite useful (in comparison to well, ignorance). What if by understanding the method of how a Reaper shell is constructed (melted down organics for example) you could find a way to interfere with whatever individual minds of the Reaper collective contribute to the whole. Of course, I admit I'm reaching here, however lets assume it's a valid method, that's one more option allowed to you compared to simply destroying the base.

One other thing too, the Collector's were never meant to be found, therefore you could argue that while the Collectors are instruments for the Reaper fleets, their discovery was not counted on to 'direct technological evolution' in the same way as the Mass Relays.

As to TIM, well... obviously I may be in the minority here, but I'm squarely in the frame of mind that due to our options (or lack thereof) in regards to methods/opportunities available to us in regards to the ending of ME2, then even if everyone's worse fears come to pass (TIM somehow leads humanity to complete dominance of other species in any/all way(s)) then that is still preferable to complete annihiliation at the hands (tentacles) of the Reaper menace... because you know, as long as those other species exist, they still have hope for a better future.

[Arijharn]

Inverness Moon wrote...

wulf3n wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
You think TIM could become a threat worse than the reapers? I think he would be flattered if he knew you thought that. But I don't think there is a chance of that at all.

Ok this is where a lot of people seem to be getting the wrong impression. Just because some of us see TIM as a potential "threat" to the galaxy, doesn't mean we think TIM is a greater threat than the reapers. IF that were the case TIM wouldn't need shepard.

So while fighting the reapers, giving TIM anything that makes him stronger would only be a last resort! for me at least.

You don't have the benefit of holding off the choice of what to do with the collector base until you know whether it is the last resort or not. It would take time to upgrade the Alliance fleet with the technology from the collector base. It's not some super weapon that you can hold off on using until you have no other choice. You have to make your choice then and there.

You don't seem to understand the situation you're in.

NO IT'S THE PROMETHEUS DRIVER!!!!111!!!