1536 réponses à ce sujet

[Sable Rhapsody]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Loghain was a great villain for exactly the reasons Sable mentioned. There was a thread recently where people said Ganon and Sephiroth were great villains. But Loghain was great because he was just so damned sure that his opinion was the right one, that only he knew what was best for EVERYBODY, and in the end, that he chose death rather than living with the hell of being wrong.

Yeah, he was such a realistic villain.  And he had a quality of "real life" bad guys, so to speak, where he wasn't out for some evil agenda.  He thought he was doing the right thing, and really just made a terrible mess of it.  I love Magnificent Bastard villains, don't get me wrong, but Loghain was great because he wasn't one.  He just wasn't cut out for what he was trying to do, and made a huge craphole out of Ferelden.  Nice job 

And as for Ganon and Sephiroth, I like the aesthetic appeal of white haired bishies as well as the next girl, but these guys are stereotypical Punch Clock Villains.  Sephiroth is cute, yes.  Ganon has some hellishly fun boss fights.  But good villains?  Please.  

[Bryy_Miller]

They really need to stop the trend of "Fight Ganondorf 50 times and then have an EPIC deal with Human Ganon".

[DragonRacer13]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Yeah, he was such a realistic villain.  And he had a quality of "real life" bad guys, so to speak, where he wasn't out for some evil agenda.  He thought he was doing the right thing, and really just made a terrible mess of it.  I love Magnificent Bastard villains, don't get me wrong, but Loghain was great because he wasn't one.  He just wasn't cut out for what he was trying to do, and made a huge craphole out of Ferelden.  Nice job 

Reminds me a bit of that Harvey Dent quote in The Dark Knight: "You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." Quite tragic, honestly.

[Anarya]

DragonRacer13 wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Yeah, he was such a realistic villain.  And he had a quality of "real life" bad guys, so to speak, where he wasn't out for some evil agenda.  He thought he was doing the right thing, and really just made a terrible mess of it.  I love Magnificent Bastard villains, don't get me wrong, but Loghain was great because he wasn't one.  He just wasn't cut out for what he was trying to do, and made a huge craphole out of Ferelden.  Nice job 

Reminds me a bit of that Harvey Dent quote in The Dark Knight: "You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." Quite tragic, honestly.

Yeah this is why I liked Loghain but I'm a tragiphile I guess.

[Bryy_Miller]

It's ironic that right after I said I would never bang Alistair, I banged Alistair. I think we all know my position on gays right now.

[mopotter]

Saibh wrote...

mopotter wrote...

phaonica wrote...

mopotter wrote...
He has a dead wife you know.   Ohhh and he was in love with the dead queen.  :devil:

That's true. He's an older guy, though, so it'd be rather curious if he didn't have *any* past love interests.

I disagreed with a lot of what he did, too, but for various reasons, I decided to give him another chance, and then it turned out that I really liked him. What can I say.

The dead wife comments are mostly for the ones who want a LI without a dead wife in their background. 

I actually don't mind the dead wife syndrome.  Carth was 38, I'm not sure how old Sky was but I assumed he was at least in his late 20's, Thane is older for his race, and for me, the dead wife shows they were able to have a relationship in the past they cared about so have a good chance to care about my character.  It's not a necessity, Kaidan is one of my favorite LI, but I won't mind if they use it again.  

Loghain isn't my type, he tried to control everything way too much in the books and I can see him trying to tell my character what to do.  She would react badly.  Tell her to go right and she will go left, even if it means she walks in a puddle.  Tell her there is a puddle up on the left and she will go around it.  but I can see the appeal.

But why must they be dead? Why must we be compared to them? 

I tell you, no man in his right mind would dare compare you to his dead spouse and expect you to stay with him. That's not healthy, that's not okay.

I'm pretty sure the reason BioWare makes all these dead wives is because they assume we love commitment, and they don't want the love interest being a divorcé (either because that makes him a bad guy in our eyes, or because it means there's "the other woman" hanging around somewhere), they kill her off. Now he has feelings.

I disagree that being told something about me reminds my LI of a dead loved one is a bad thing, now if he said something reminds him of his x then I'd be concerned.   and I remember once when Carth does make the comparison, he asked if it was inappropriate, but I have to admit I don't remember how often he makes the comparison.   I just remember that one time.  I may need to dust it off and play again.  

I do agree with you that BioWare may be/probably does - use the dead wife because of the other idea of woman hanging around and they may think women have a bad attitude about divorced men, but that's not necessarily true, especially if you are married to the divorced man.    

I would love to have another background for future LI,  X's are fine as long as he stays with me and doesn't expect me to fight for him.    I just don't have a problem with the dead wife one.   I wouldn't mind a player - a guy who has a few past relationships, and my character is the last.  

[Anarya]

mopotter wrote...

I disagree that being told something about me reminds my LI of a dead loved one is a bad thing, now if he said something reminds him of his x then I'd be concerned.   and I remember once when Carth does make the comparison, he asked if it was inappropriate, but I have to admit I don't remember how often he makes the comparison.   I just remember that one time.  I may need to dust it off and play again. 

I can only remember the one time. If you ask him what his wife was like he lists a few pretty broad personality traits and then says "...kind of like you".

[Anarya]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

It's ironic that right after I said I would never bang Alistair, I banged Alistair. I think we all know my position on gays right now.

Well it's not your fault. I hear he's quite delightful in the tent.

He claims to be all innocent but I think he secretly knows he's got game.

[mllrthyme]

Okay, just caught up on the thread and I just have to put my 2 cents in on Loghain.

*duck and cover for upcoming Loghain rant*

I think the writers did an amazing job with him just because I hate him so much! Any fictional character that can elicit a strong emotional reaction is aces in my book. However, due to good writing, Loghain comes off as a hypocritical poopy head! He about pisses himself because Cailin has reinforcements coming from Orlais and he doesn't approve and so leaves his king (and son-in-law) to his death. Then he states to the nation for half the game that there is no blight and it's just a bunch of BS. Then in the second half of the game he resorts to slavery, unlawful imprisonment and torture, and other heinous icky-ness in order to raise money and troops for the Blight. But wait, I thought there was no blight??? At the Landsmeet he defends these actions by saying that he would do anything to protect his country, which he screwed over in his pride by refusing help at Ostagar from the Orlesians in the first place. For a great a military leader as he was supposed to be, his actions at Ostagar were fueled by pride, he made a colossal mistake, and spent the rest of the game trying to cover his a** and not look like such a turd.

This is why I love to hate Loghain.

*rant over, thank you*

[Sable Rhapsody]

mopotter wrote...

I disagree that being told something about me reminds my LI of a dead loved one is a bad thing, now if he said something reminds him of his x then I'd be concerned.   and I remember once when Carth does make the comparison, he asked if it was inappropriate, but I have to admit I don't remember how often he makes the comparison.   I just remember that one time.  I may need to dust it off and play again.  

I do agree with you that BioWare may be/probably does - use the dead wife because of the other idea of woman hanging around and they may think women have a bad attitude about divorced men, but that's not necessarily true, especially if you are married to the divorced man.    

I would love to have another background for future LI,  X's are fine as long as he stays with me and doesn't expect me to fight for him.    I just don't have a problem with the dead wife one.   I wouldn't mind a player - a guy who has a few past relationships, and my character is the last.  

The thing is that from a social psychology standpoint, IRL, comparing a current relationship to a previous relationship and continuing to draw parallels between the two, ESPECIALLY if the previous partner is dead, is usually unhealthy and uncomfortable for the other partner.  Carth compares you to his wife.  Thane has replacement goldfish syndrome up the wazoo, even calling Shep "siha" as he did for Irikah.  I understand this is a video game and we can get away with bending or idealizing reality, but there are just some things that bother me IRL or in video games.  One is the Cullenmance.  The other is this kind of replacement thing.

Worse is that you can't call Carth out on it.  And if you try to call out Thane, he interprets it as breaking the romance.  If you could just work out your issues, then have it be over and done with, it'd be fine.  But as it is, I find it distressing.

[Thiefy]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Xette wrote...

Garrus. That is all.

Yeah, it's hard to not love Garrus.  That voice, those scars, that sniper rifle...mmm...  Though for me, it was always just Garrus that I found attractive, and not turians in general.  I liked Garrus for his snark, his personality, and that sexy-as-sin voice.

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...
Well it's kind of like how some people can't really stand the "paladin" types and think carth/kaiden/alistair are just rehashes of each other, though I personally think they have pretty different personalities. or how people are very por loghain or pro alistair.

I'd call Anomen, Casavir, and Samara "paladin" types.  Carth, Kaidan, and Alistair are good guys, and ardently so, but I wouldn't call them paladin types.  To me, what epitomizes a "paladin" type character as opposed to a normal good guy is a certain moral inflexibility.  Or, more colloquially, having a GIANT STICK UP YOUR TUSH.  I have met a grand total of about three no-kidding paladins that I haven't wanted to curbstomp at some point.  One of them was my own D&D character.

But just to prove that any trope can be redeemed, here's my 2 cents.  I can't stand paladin types on even my good days.  I usually end up either killing off those NPCs, never picking them up, or just dumping them somewhere nice and hidden.  But I adored ME2's Samara, because she managed to be Lawful Good without being Lawful Stupid.  She knew what her code required of her and followed it unwaveringly, but she was flexible enough to seek solutions that would satisfy the code and spare innocents.  I thought she was awesome.

Oh i didn't think those three were paladin types personally, just repeating the popular opinion on the forums  But yeah i know some people have things they gravitate towards and distance themselves from. I can't really stand Elanee right now and she's perma camped at the Flagon in NWN2. I seem to like the companions that bicker with everyone else (Neeshka, Sand, Bishop) except Qara.

How about someone like Dexter?  Not sure if anyone watches it, I watched it once and couldn't watch it again, it's just to disturbing to me.  He seems to be a total sociopath without any feeling of right or wrong, but only goes after people who have committed really bad crimes.  I think that's how it goes.  He mimics the emotions of other people and is very good at it.  The one show I watched, he had a girlfriend and co-workers who thought he was just like them.  Not sure how that would work in a video game.

actually, i dont think i've seen that show

Anyway I don't think Bishop is entirely a sociopath, I mean a sociopath wouldn't get jealous over a girl with another guy, that and he actually does show a bit of concern for the fem p/c plus a little bit of guilt (mostly hate, but a smidgeon of guilt) over his past.

[Dave of Canada]

Anarya wrote...

Yeah this is why I liked Loghain but I'm a tragiphile I guess.

Is.. is that legal?

[Kohaku]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Anarya wrote...

Yeah this is why I liked Loghain but I'm a tragiphile I guess.

Is.. is that legal?

Of course it is! {Whispers: Around these parts.}

[Anarya]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Anarya wrote...

Yeah this is why I liked Loghain but I'm a tragiphile I guess.

Is.. is that legal?

Don't judge me!

[Dave of Canada]

Anarya wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Anarya wrote...

Yeah this is why I liked Loghain but I'm a tragiphile I guess.

Is.. is that legal?

Don't judge me!

*judge*

[Anarya]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Anarya wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Anarya wrote...

Yeah this is why I liked Loghain but I'm a tragiphile I guess.

Is.. is that legal?

Don't judge me!

*judge*

Oh how...tragic.

I'll be in my bunk.

[Saibh]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

mopotter wrote...

I disagree that being told something about me reminds my LI of a dead loved one is a bad thing, now if he said something reminds him of his x then I'd be concerned.   and I remember once when Carth does make the comparison, he asked if it was inappropriate, but I have to admit I don't remember how often he makes the comparison.   I just remember that one time.  I may need to dust it off and play again.  

I do agree with you that BioWare may be/probably does - use the dead wife because of the other idea of woman hanging around and they may think women have a bad attitude about divorced men, but that's not necessarily true, especially if you are married to the divorced man.    

I would love to have another background for future LI,  X's are fine as long as he stays with me and doesn't expect me to fight for him.    I just don't have a problem with the dead wife one.   I wouldn't mind a player - a guy who has a few past relationships, and my character is the last.  

The thing is that from a social psychology standpoint, IRL, comparing a current relationship to a previous relationship and continuing to draw parallels between the two, ESPECIALLY if the previous partner is dead, is usually unhealthy and uncomfortable for the other partner.  Carth compares you to his wife.  Thane has replacement goldfish syndrome up the wazoo, even calling Shep "siha" as he did for Irikah.  I understand this is a video game and we can get away with bending or idealizing reality, but there are just some things that bother me IRL or in video games.  One is the Cullenmance.  The other is this kind of replacement thing.

Worse is that you can't call Carth out on it.  And if you try to call out Thane, he interprets it as breaking the romance.  If you could just work out your issues, then have it be over and done with, it'd be fine.  But as it is, I find it distressing.

To add, it's happened so many times. If it happened once or twice, I doubt I would have noticed. But there's a dead-something in just about every BioWare game. BGII, ME, ME2, DAO, JE, KOTOR, NWN and NWN: HotU. All of them. Some of them are more blatant and groan-worthy than others, but I think that's an overabundance, don't you?

[Thiefy]

Saibh wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

mopotter wrote...

I disagree that being told something about me reminds my LI of a dead loved one is a bad thing, now if he said something reminds him of his x then I'd be concerned.   and I remember once when Carth does make the comparison, he asked if it was inappropriate, but I have to admit I don't remember how often he makes the comparison.   I just remember that one time.  I may need to dust it off and play again.  

I do agree with you that BioWare may be/probably does - use the dead wife because of the other idea of woman hanging around and they may think women have a bad attitude about divorced men, but that's not necessarily true, especially if you are married to the divorced man.    

I would love to have another background for future LI,  X's are fine as long as he stays with me and doesn't expect me to fight for him.    I just don't have a problem with the dead wife one.   I wouldn't mind a player - a guy who has a few past relationships, and my character is the last.  

The thing is that from a social psychology standpoint, IRL, comparing a current relationship to a previous relationship and continuing to draw parallels between the two, ESPECIALLY if the previous partner is dead, is usually unhealthy and uncomfortable for the other partner.  Carth compares you to his wife.  Thane has replacement goldfish syndrome up the wazoo, even calling Shep "siha" as he did for Irikah.  I understand this is a video game and we can get away with bending or idealizing reality, but there are just some things that bother me IRL or in video games.  One is the Cullenmance.  The other is this kind of replacement thing.

Worse is that you can't call Carth out on it.  And if you try to call out Thane, he interprets it as breaking the romance.  If you could just work out your issues, then have it be over and done with, it'd be fine.  But as it is, I find it distressing.

To add, it's happened so many times. If it happened once or twice, I doubt I would have noticed. But there's a dead-something in just about every BioWare game. BGII, ME, ME2, DAO, JE, KOTOR, NWN and NWN: HotU. All of them. Some of them are more blatant and groan-worthy than others, but I think that's an overabundance, don't you?

For what it's worth, even though Valen has a dead ex girlfriend in HotU, he actually IS over it, doesn't bring it up unless you ask about it, and doesn't compare you to her.

[mllrthyme]

I really enjoyed the romance with Valen. Some of the flirting was very funny as well as his reaction to it. His VA is just dreamy, although it did get almost too sugary-sweet towards the end with the "yes, my love" and all.

[Thiefy]

mllrthyme wrote...

I really enjoyed the romance with Valen. Some of the flirting was very funny as well as his reaction to it. His VA is just dreamy, although it did get almost too sugary-sweet towards the end with the "yes, my love" and all.

i liked his interaction with the other npcs, like when he asks nathyrra about some elvish words and it happened to have an obscene refference to his tail (unbeknownst to him) and when Deekin asks him if demon have babies.

*snicker*

i actually liked the "my lady/my love" part

what i thought was weird was asker the knower of names who my true love was  and getting valen, then asking her who the sleeping man's true love was and getting me.

I literally sat up in my chair and was like "WHAT?"

I think that was just oversight on the dame design part because I apparently lived happily ever after with the both of them, but still....that would be awkward...I can just imagine Valen going "Ugh...is there something you wish to tell me, my lady."

[mllrthyme]

Yup, that happened to me. I reloaded the previous save a few times, just to see who all could be the Sleeping Man's true love. At one point, it was the monk lady, and the Sleeping Man attacked me after I told him because I had killed her. Oops.

[mopotter]

Saibh wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

mopotter wrote...

I disagree that being told something about me reminds my LI of a dead loved one is a bad thing, now if he said something reminds him of his x then I'd be concerned.   and I remember once when Carth does make the comparison, he asked if it was inappropriate, but I have to admit I don't remember how often he makes the comparison.   I just remember that one time.  I may need to dust it off and play again.  

I do agree with you that BioWare may be/probably does - use the dead wife because of the other idea of woman hanging around and they may think women have a bad attitude about divorced men, but that's not necessarily true, especially if you are married to the divorced man.    

I would love to have another background for future LI,  X's are fine as long as he stays with me and doesn't expect me to fight for him.    I just don't have a problem with the dead wife one.   I wouldn't mind a player - a guy who has a few past relationships, and my character is the last.  

The thing is that from a social psychology standpoint, IRL, comparing a current relationship to a previous relationship and continuing to draw parallels between the two, ESPECIALLY if the previous partner is dead, is usually unhealthy and uncomfortable for the other partner.  Carth compares you to his wife.  Thane has replacement goldfish syndrome up the wazoo, even calling Shep "siha" as he did for Irikah.  I understand this is a video game and we can get away with bending or idealizing reality, but there are just some things that bother me IRL or in video games.  One is the Cullenmance.  The other is this kind of replacement thing.

Worse is that you can't call Carth out on it.  And if you try to call out Thane, he interprets it as breaking the romance.  If you could just work out your issues, then have it be over and done with, it'd be fine.  But as it is, I find it distressing.

To add, it's happened so many times. If it happened once or twice, I doubt I would have noticed. But there's a dead-something in just about every BioWare game. BGII, ME, ME2, DAO, JE, KOTOR, NWN and NWN: HotU. All of them. Some of them are more blatant and groan-worthy than others, but I think that's an overabundance, don't you?

I do agree they need to widen the background stories.    

Carth, Sky, Thane - dead wife/live child or dead child
Zev many partners killed his girlfriend 

But they do have a few others.  
Alistair, no past loves
Liara, no past loves
Garrus, well we don't know much about his background except there was the  ummm wrestling match,  and he has a super duper voice, which I would not mind hearing as a LI in DA.  
Silk Fox, I don't think she had any past relationships or I didn't pay attention. 
Leliana has an evil x.  
Kaidan had a crush on a girl when he was highschool age and killed a man because of her and that's all we know about his past.
Aaroin Gend was a slave, killed a few people, I can't remember him talking about his past other than that
Valen Shadowbreath, doesn't trust you at the beginning and I don't remember anything else except the tail.  Loved the tail.
I know i"m missing the ones from BG and maybe some others, but can't remember them.    

So yes, I do agree they could widen the background pool,  but they have done other backgrounds.  Some better than others and I don't particularly want a dead wife in DA, but I don't want a complete mystery either.  I want to know if I need to see a doctor after I've spent time with my LI.    Some hint that he has been meditating in a cave for 20 years or just drifted apart from his last lover.  Or played - how many sex partners can I have in 3 weeks.  (thinking Barney Stinson here)   I'll probably enjoy whatever they write up, and everyone has come up with interesting ideas.  

The only thing I'll be disappointed about is if they limit our choices to one.  As much as I adore Carth, it would have been nice to have the option of Canderous. 

[Sjofn]

 As long as they're well-written and well acted, I will probably be content. I care not about a dwarf dude interest if I am stuck playing a human, but I really, really, really, REALLY wished there was a dwarf for my dwarf ladies to love in Origins. 

[Saibh]

mopotter wrote...
I do agree they need to widen the background stories.    

Carth, Sky, Thane - dead wife/live child or dead child
Zev many partners killed his girlfriend 

But they do have a few others.  
Alistair, no past loves
Liara, no past loves
Garrus, well we don't know much about his background except there was the  ummm wrestling match,  and he has a super duper voice, which I would not mind hearing as a LI in DA.  
Silk Fox, I don't think she had any past relationships or I didn't pay attention. 
Leliana has an evil x.  
Kaidan had a crush on a girl when he was highschool age and killed a man because of her and that's all we know about his past.
Aaroin Gend was a slave, killed a few people, I can't remember him talking about his past other than that
Valen Shadowbreath, doesn't trust you at the beginning and I don't remember anything else except the tail.  Loved the tail.
I know i"m missing the ones from BG and maybe some others, but can't remember them.    

So yes, I do agree they could widen the background pool,  but they have done other backgrounds.  Some better than others and I don't particularly want a dead wife in DA, but I don't want a complete mystery either.  I want to know if I need to see a doctor after I've spent time with my LI.    Some hint that he has been meditating in a cave for 20 years or just drifted apart from his last lover.  Or played - how many sex partners can I have in 3 weeks.  (thinking Barney Stinson here)   I'll probably enjoy whatever they write up, and everyone has come up with interesting ideas.  

The only thing I'll be disappointed about is if they limit our choices to one.  As much as I adore Carth, it would have been nice to have the option of Canderous. 

Of course they have other LI backgrounds, that's not what I'm contending. It's just having a dead-something (particularly dead wife or dead girlfriend) is such a particular plot point, and it's just all over the place. It occurs again and again and it almost never plays out right. It almost always makes me cringe.

Aarin Gend has a girlfriend that he killed. Kaidan has that girlfriend that he says he's reminded of by you, and his personality is all hung up over that. Anomen's sister is killed and he freaking proposes to you with her ring. Like that's not creepy.

With both Alistair and Liara it's sort of a point in their romances that they have no past lovers or relationships. Again, with some of the others past relationships just don't need to matter. Garrus mentions a fling he had. We never really needed to know that, and it doesn't hurt that we do, but either way, it's not important. And his romance is a big favorite amongst the fangirls.

Modifié par Saibh, 06 août 2010 - 01:32 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Anarya wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

It's ironic that right after I said I would never bang Alistair, I banged Alistair. I think we all know my position on gays right now.

Well it's not your fault. I hear he's quite delightful in the tent.

He claims to be all innocent but I think he secretly knows he's got game.

I heard he was huge. I had to know. One thing led to another. Next thing you know... Godbabies.