217 réponses à ce sujet

[BlackyBlack]

filaminstrel wrote...

The only problem I see with this is, if you choose an option which leads to a short back and forth beyond your control, i.e. your character speaks more than once between that choice and the next.

It doesn't matter. I only want the first line the character speaks since the next one would be pretty similar in tone and meaning. And besides, those dialogues are very rare

[AlanC9]

BlackyBlack wrote...

The dialogue wheel would be for people who like that kind of dialogue and not knowing what Hawke is going to say (only nudging him in that direction), which is probably mostly just BioWare employees

When someone says something this preposterous I never know if he really means it. 

[The Hardest Thing In The World]

Yes, come on, I think my question is very valid. I really want to know why they are going for that approach. Why the wheel dialogue?

[BlackyBlack]

AlanC9 wrote...

BlackyBlack wrote...

The dialogue wheel would be for people who like that kind of dialogue and not knowing what Hawke is going to say (only nudging him in that direction), which is probably mostly just BioWare employees

When someone says something this preposterous I never know if he really means it.

I only said that because there has been lots of complaining about the dialogue wheel and a poll said people prefered a not-voiced protagonist

[BlackyBlack]

The Hardest Thing In The World wrote...

Yes, come on, I think my question is very valid. I really want to know why they are going for that approach. Why the wheel dialogue?

Scipio203 wrote...

There was a ME2 preview before the game was released that had a dev on it that said bioware wanted to have what the wheel said and what Shepard did to be different. They purposely made some responses to make Shepard do something extreme in certain situations.

I also remember reading that somewhere but I can't find the article

Modifié par BlackyBlack, 23 juillet 2010 - 09:09 .

[The Hardest Thing In The World]

BlackyBlack wrote...

The Hardest Thing In The World wrote...

Yes, come on, I think my question is very valid. I really want to know why they are going for that approach. Why the wheel dialogue?

Scipio203 wrote...

There was a ME2 preview before the game was released that had a dev on it that said bioware wanted to have what the wheel said and what Shepard did to be different. They purposely made some responses to make Shepard do something extreme in certain situations.

I also remember reading that somewhere but I can't find the article

I wonder why would they want to do that and what does it achieve.

[BlackyBlack]

The Hardest Thing In The World wrote...

I wonder why would they want to do that and what does it achieve.

I think the point is that people read less and just make the dialogue flow. They think it's more cinematic

And also, they probably think that reading something and Shepard just repeating it is stupid, but I disagree. It's worked in The Witcher and many Adventure games and nobody has ever complained. I much prefer The Witcher's handling of a voiced protagonist

[BlackyBlack]

@The Hardest Thing In The World

From ME1 06 demo:

Rather than force you to read through piles of text we want to put you in the moment

Modifié par BlackyBlack, 23 juillet 2010 - 09:22 .

[AlanC9]

BlackyBlack wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

BlackyBlack wrote...

The dialogue wheel would be for people who like that kind of dialogue and not knowing what Hawke is going to say (only nudging him in that direction), which is probably mostly just BioWare employees

When someone says something this preposterous I never know if he really means it.

I only said that because there has been lots of complaining about the dialogue wheel and a poll said people prefered a not-voiced protagonist

Sure, but did you really think that it's mostly Bio folks who like this approach, or were you just engaging in the sort of ridiculous overstatement we see all the time on these boards?

Once or twice a week new people drop by the DA board to request a voiced protagonist; they're generally shouted down. About the only thing you can reasonably conclude from the evidence is that a majority of forum regulars aren't for it. But we're not typical of the buyers, not at all. That poll is even less convincing, since to even look at it you have to care about the issue. Changes that bother people always gain more interest.

Modifié par AlanC9, 23 juillet 2010 - 09:25 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

The Hardest Thing In The World wrote...

You have ask yourself or Bioware, why they are going towards that approach first.

Laidlaw said the point of paraphrasing the options is to prevent you reading a line only to have it then read to you, both because that would be repetitive, and because you might impart some tone to it when you read it, only to then be contradicted by the spoken line.
 
The latter suggests the point of the wheel is to produce a more shallow and superficial experience where you give less thought to your character's words.

[GurkBoll]

Shinian2 wrote...

I like the idea but it would cause problems for the devs. IE If they decided to re-record the voice with slightly different words they would have to also edit the text popups wherever they appear. more work for devs= probably not going to happen. heh

You are forgetting that the game comes with subtitles, thus the text already exists. Adding a simple pop-up text is easy so I hope the devs takes OP:s suggestion.

[Sylvius the Mad]

BlackyBlack wrote...

That video showed a far better tactical experience than either ME game actually provides.

Plus, I liked how the target reticle would stick to enemies.  That was a better way to do stat-driven aiming.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 23 juillet 2010 - 10:08 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

Hmmm. Hawke has brown hair and a black beard...

[soteria]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The Hardest Thing In The World wrote...

You have ask yourself or Bioware, why they are going towards that approach first.

Laidlaw said the point of paraphrasing the options is to prevent you reading a line only to have it then read to you, both because that would be repetitive, and because you might impart some tone to it when you read it, only to then be contradicted by the spoken line.
 
The latter suggests the point of the wheel is to produce a more shallow and superficial experience where you give less thought to your character's words.

Well, certainly, from your perspective.  I won't be able to judge how well the game works for me until I have it in hand, but this might work.  Even in DA:O, you could only pick options that fit the writers' intent.  They put those lines in there with a certain "tone" in mind, and  I'm not sure if knowing the exact wording makes for a deeper experience or not, since we don't know what the tone is for a given line without seeing the NPC's reaction.  I certainly remember a few cases in DA:O where I picked an option I thought would be sarcastic or joking, and turned out to be serious.  I'll have to see how it works out in DA2.

[Sylvius the Mad]

soteria wrote...

Well, certainly, from your perspective.  I won't be able to judge how well the game works for me until I have it in hand, but this might work.  Even in DA:O, you could only pick options that fit the writers' intent.  They put those lines in there with a certain "tone" in mind, and  I'm not sure if knowing the exact wording makes for a deeper experience or not, since we don't know what the tone is for a given line without seeing the NPC's reaction.  I certainly remember a few cases in DA:O where I picked an option I thought would be sarcastic or joking, and turned out to be serious.  I'll have to see how it works out in DA2.

By being able to see the whole line, you could exercise greater control over your character's intention (by avoiding certain types of information you didn't want the divulge, for example).

And the tone intended by the writers, assuming there is one, isn't knowable to the player at the time he's selecting the line, so that's can't drive your choice.  So unless you're letting the game reveal your character to you rather than you designing his personality yourself, you need to know before you choose the line how you want it delivered.

This is why I want to turn off the voice even if we have to keep the wheel.

[soteria]

By being able to see the whole line, you could exercise greater control over your character's intention (by avoiding certain types of information you didn't want the divulge, for example).

Well, that's true. Try playing a renegade Shepard while avoiding racist comments, for example. I think I'm less optimistic than you are about the amount of control I have over my character in the first place, though.

And the tone intended by the writers, assuming there is one, isn't knowable to the player at the time he's selecting the line, so that's can't drive your choice. So unless you're letting the game reveal your character to you rather than you designing his personality yourself, you need to know before you choose the line how you want it delivered.

My hope is that with the icons and the practice/feedback they have from writing ME dialogues, they'll do better at it. The tone, at least, should be clear from the icon. If not, then the system is failing at what it's supposed to do.

[Bugzehat]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

And the tone intended by the writers, assuming there is one, isn't knowable to the player at the time he's selecting the line, so that's can't drive your choice.  So unless you're letting the game reveal your character to you rather than you designing his personality yourself, you need to know before you choose the line how you want it delivered.

You couldn't really know in Origins, though. Picking a line I thought was a friendly joke and having NPCs react as if I was being cruel, well, that was a huge immersion-breaker for me. Hopefully the symbols alongside the dialog will help avoid that in DA2, other drawbacks aside.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Bugzehat wrote...

You couldn't really know in Origins, though. Picking a line I thought was a friendly joke and having NPCs react as if I was being cruel, well, that was a huge immersion-breaker for me.

Why?  That the NPC reacted as if you were being cruel doesn't mean ou were being cruel.  Maybe it means the NPC is thin-skinned.  Or is an idiot.

Playing like this allows your PCs' impressions of the same NPC to differ from playthrough to playthrough.  One of your PCs might think Alistair is a fun guy to have around and a good solider, while another of your PCs might think he's a simpering fool.

Letting the writers choose tone for you only limits your roleplaying flexibility.

[derkaderka-]

i support this thread. this is a slippery slope here. bioware is going the wrong way on this one. it totally ruins the immersion. give us back our old chat. mass effect chat hurts the game and makes the player a spectator in the scripted main story. it makes it a simple action game with a main story... but no role play control.

don't make dragon age a simple action game, give us our rpg chat, not that abomonation of a dialogue wheel.

Modifié par derkaderka-, 24 juillet 2010 - 12:58 .

[derkaderka-]

BlackyBlack wrote...

The Hardest Thing In The World wrote...

I wonder why would they want to do that and what does it achieve.

I think the point is that people read less and just make the dialogue flow. They think it's more cinematic

And also, they probably think that reading something and Shepard just repeating it is stupid, but I disagree. It's worked in The Witcher and many Adventure games and nobody has ever complained. I much prefer The Witcher's handling of a voiced protagonist

the problem is, that is nothing more than watching a movie, and not role playing at all. you don't know what your character is going to say, so you cant connect to it. all you can do is click a choice, then sit back and watch the conversation, not knowing what you just triggered. the wheel kills the role play. i don't want to watch a movie play out, i want to be my character. plus it kills the replay value. once you've watched the dialogue (as a spectator) without being connected to your character once, you won't care to play again.

dao is me being the warden, me2 is shepard being shepard. don't make us spectators, give us the immersion of proper true rpg.

[orpheus333]

David Gaider wrote...

FieryDove wrote...
I know the writing team is different here but the wheel is still...the wheel...it's Ebil I say!

This is the same writing team that worked on DAO, actually.

But what do you think about the idea of having the paraphrases close captioned so they can be visible as a roll-over. Or would the designers deem it as in-elegant? I think its a pretty good idea, the best of both world almost.

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

BlackyBlack wrote...

That video showed a far better tactical experience than either ME game actually provides.

Plus, I liked how the target reticle would stick to enemies.  That was a better way to do stat-driven aiming.

They changed ME dramatically, including removing full party control before release. As to why they did it... I have no idea.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

They changed ME dramatically, including removing full party control before release. As to why they did it... I have no idea.

Since I didn't follow ME's development at all (it was announced as a console exclusive, so I never expected to play it), I hadn't known.

I suspect it was to make the gameplay more like mainstream third-person shooters, thus lowering the barrier to entry for players who were unfamiliar with BioWare's prior offerings.  As a sci-fi setting that wasn't based on an especially nerdy IP (like Star Wars), ME had the chance to appeal to shooter fans generally.

It was probabaly a good business decision, but it looks like it harmed the game badly.

Of course, there may have been hardware-related reasons for the change as well (like the loss of the tactical camera in console versions of DAO).

[jeckaldied]

This would essentially do away with every complaint I have about the dialog wheel. Honestly half the time in the ME series, the not posting what you were going to say seemed like a convenient way to hide the fact that multiple times every dialog option had the same script to it. Shepard did and said things unexpected in dialog to often for me to ever accept him as my character.



Maybe its linked to some deep rooted psychological issue, but in games were I make the character, I want to have as much control over their actions as possible. I don't spontaneously punch people without having any clue I was going to do so, nor do I think "That's an order" but say, "Get the hell on the escape pod, I'll save joker's crippled ass", nor should my character.



I intermittently switch between wanting DA2 and wanting nothing to do with it ( I say this as DA:O is my favorite game). Just knowing I will be able to know exactly what my character will say before I say it would be enough to make this a definitely sold for me. I know we haven't heard too much about the game, and I know its a ridiculously moot thing to get work up over, but this dialog wheel business is one of my personal biggest issues.



I know very little about programing, and I'm sure that this would require much more work than I could possibly think it would, but I just hope that Bioware at least seriously considers the OP's suggestion.