50 réponses à ce sujet

[CaisLaochach]

There's always the potential it won't turn out to be a psychotic demon-god baby. And if it does turn out to be, you'll always be able to go and kill it.

[Sattva]

Great answers, thank you people :-)

I liked both the father-to-be and the girl with no kids, you both speak from your real experience, and that's what I find most valuable - sorry, I'm a sucker for such things :-)

But has anyone considered that this spooky baby might be something else, something that brings change, something new? We are inherently afraid of unknown, and maybe this is the case?

Modifié par Sattva, 25 juillet 2010 - 10:36 .

[phaonica]

Sattva wrote...

But has anyone considered that this spooky baby might be something else, something that brings change, something new? We are inherently afraid of unknown, and maybe this is the case?

In the absence of information, we can only speculate on the extremes. If Morrigan thinks that it is terribly important that the DR take place because it could be vitally important to helping the world... she might have better luck if she would actually tell us that. Not everyone is going to believe her, even so.

How many players out there would do the DR if it didn't save a Warden's life? Excluding that part, what would Morrigan have to say to you to convince you to do the DR anyway?

[Brockololly]

Morrigan does a rather terrible job convincing you to do the DR. Basically, the only reason you'd do it is for your Warden or another Warden to survive. Given how defensive and withholding Morrigan is with information on her plans for the OGB, I can't think of any good reason why you'd do it just for her sake. Of course, I think its more or less the writers purposefully withholding information to save for future plots, but there it is.

Of course, if your PC is tight friends with her or romancing her, thats a plenty valid reason. It really comes down to a matter of trust- do you trust Morrigan with the power thats held within the soul of an Old God? Do you trust Morrigan not only to not do anything foolish with the OGB, but also do you trust that Morrigan is capable of handling any adverse effects from the DR or whether she would be capable enough to fend off Flemeth should she have designs on the OGB?

Modifié par Brockololly, 25 juillet 2010 - 11:41 .

[Giggles_Manically]

My main problem with how Morrigan was in the scene was:

I want you to trust me, but I cant trust you.



Sorry but trust goes to ways and I will not blindly leap into something just because someone wants me to and they wont tell me.



I also think Morrigan is suprised that anyone would refuse to take an easy way out that would save their life. At least she does sound shocked to me when you turn her down. Does anyone have the toolset dialouge for that scenario though?

[Sarah1281]

Why did we get stuck with the Morrigan-hostile/neutral ritual scene as the default?!?!

[Giggles_Manically]

Because EA forced DA out the door in November before the christmas rush, rather than give Bioware the time to release it in March as they planned.



A lot of things got cut, and unimplemented.

[Sarah1281]

I'm willing to bet that even if Morrigan wouldn't tell a friend/lover anything else she'd still make you feel a lot more comfortable about doing it.

[Giggles_Manically]

Or maybe she is trying to put up a barrier so as not to break down in front of you. Since some dialouge leads her to be very hurt it seems.

[Zjarcal]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I also think Morrigan is suprised that anyone would refuse to take an easy way out that would save their life. At least she does sound shocked to me when you turn her down. Does anyone have the toolset dialouge for that scenario though?

The VO note for turning down the ritual when in romance or friendship, when she says that she will not stand while you throw yourself at death is "she does care -- she is furious and disappointed". For the goodbye, if in romance or frienship the VO note is "sad, bitter".

The VO notes also state that "she believes she is offering the player a good deal" and that "she is pleased with her plan".

Modifié par Zjarcal, 26 juillet 2010 - 01:57 .

[phaonica]

She seems to think that so long as she is offering you your life that you'll go along with anything she says, that she won't have to answer any questions because why would you question at all? And she can't believe that you would give up your life just because she wouldn't answer your questions. Admittedly, the game does not let me explain to her why I would turn her down, so I get why she would be frustrated.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Because EA forced DA out the door in November before the christmas rush, rather than give Bioware the time to release it in March as they planned.

A lot of things got cut, and unimplemented.

Yeah it is a shame, and I don't understand why the DR got cut because of it's importance you would think they would of cut out the Trial of the Crows or the Bartender Quests before they would of the DR. Maybe EA sprung it on them last minute and they were about to do their last few scenes.

[Sattva]

jln.francisco wrote...

Why does everyone think Morrigan is a heartless shrew? Ok so she isn't Marry Poppins but does every woman have to be some buttercup for her to be likable?

Anyway, my mage's reasons for accepting the ritual had nothing to do with his feelings for Morrigan or his own life. He was just fascinated with the idea of preserving (and hopefully someday studying) an 'Old God.' He was a 'good' character with a strong sense of right and wrong but he was also a mage. One who spent his every hour trying to unravel the mysteries of magic and the universe he lived in. (Also why he spared Avernus. Knowledge of how the taint differed from blood magic and the type of power it could hold over demons was tomuch to just throw away.)

A very sensible statement (IMHO, of course) on both accounts.

-Buttercups aren't usually that useful in fights  

-An Old God is an interesting concept per se, worth of studying. And I never kill Avernus as well 

[Janni-in-VA]

There was a wonderful discussion on the Dark Ritual and its implications a couple of months back, but I haven't been able to unearth the thread yet. However, here are some of the salient points.



1. Remember that Morrigan herself tells you, "If the Wilds have taught me anything, it is this -- first, you must survive." This is probably one reason she expects you to accept the Ritual and is somewhat hurt and confused if you don't.

2. The power of the old god resides in the soul, not the body. Possessing the child won't gain Morrigan (or Flemeth) anything. Theoretically, Flemeth could still possess Morrigan and thereby have access to the old god, but Morrigan is confident in her ability to prevent such a thing now that she has Flemeth's true grimoire.

3. If you let Flemeth live, she says, "It might be interesting to see what [Morrigan] does with her freedom." As an ancient abomination, Flemeth knows she'll survive one way or another even without Morrigan's body. Morrigan herself believes that even if Flemeth's body is killed, Flemeth herself will not truly be dead.

4. Morrigan feels that there are magical traditions outside of the Circle, such as her shapeshifting ability, which should be preserved. If you question her at length about the child, she reveals that this is her motive for preserving Urthemiel's soul. She wishes to preserve this ancient power and allow it to be reborn into the world.

[JHByrne]

Interesting thread. It's all about situational ethics. This IS a computer game, therefore allows one to explore ethical/moral choices that one would not normally do. The Dark Ritual is a great example of this. I had two characters who completed the game. Both did the Dark Ritual, but for different reasons. I myself would have taken a different path, were the 'choice' put to me.



1) My first character, a Human Noble, chose the DR b/c he was in a relationship w/ Morrigan (and also w/ Leliana) and he wanted to continue living and adventuring and have a chance to see the Kingdom recover.



2) My second character, an Elven Mage, was a bit more complex. He didn't have the 'revenge' issues of the Human Lord origins, but as an elf, and from the Magi Tower, I cast him as a sort of sociopathic megalomaniac (power mad). He had no strong cultural roots, no family, no 'cause' other than personal power. Who could such a character REALLY identify with? Not the Dalish... presumeably, he had been a city elf before being dragged off to the tower. Not the Tower... that was just a prison that most mages wanted to escape. Not Humans, or their Kingdom of Ferelden, or the Chantry (Exalted March on the Dales, etc). So... no connections, no ethics... no limits.



The elf didn't do the ritual to save himself. Without any strong connections or roots, he just didn't care. So, he did the ritual... with the express intention of creating another Old God. Personal survival was just a side benefit.

After all, why would an elf mage REALLY care if there is another Old God running around? Weren't the original Elves semi-immortal and powerful? Presumeably, they might have some association with Old Gods, before the blights. Besides, the character is just sociopathic enough to be... interested... to see what would happen if another Old God was reborn.



3) For myself, I'd probably refuse the ritual, and just kill the Arch-Demon, dying in the process. Honor and Duty and all that.



As far as Loghain and Anora go, though.... easy answer. Loghain has to die, so the Kingdom can live. Anora... well, she should die too (that's the politically WISE thing for Alistair to do) but we never got that choice...

[Sarah1281]

As far as Loghain and Anora go, though.... easy answer. Loghain has to die, so the Kingdom can live. Anora... well, she should die too (that's the politically WISE thing for Alistair to do) but we never got that choice...

Sending him off to Orlais works just as well.

[errant_knight]

Sattva wrote...

Maybe this is not the first post on this topic, for which I apologize.

But I simply need to voice my concerns.
I have a feeling that somehow the dark ritual is plain cheating in the otherwise epic storyline. It is too convenient and unobtrusive, and makes a very easy way out.

I agree that not everybody would want to sacrifice their adorable PC or their romantic interest (true for me!), but the ritual simply does not feel to me like equally hard a choice. It rubs me the wrong way plot-wise, not "explicit-content-wise". No offense to monogamy devotees.

Please tell me your thoughts on the matter...

I found it a very difficult decision. On one hand, I wanted my PC and Alistair to survive, but the ritual was some kind of blood magic. And it would overwrite the soul of Alistair's child, which was just wrong. And there was no knowing what the old god child would become or what Morrigan's intent might be. Allowing Loghain to survive was simply not an option, and besides, at Landsmeet, you don't know any of what will come. I went with the ritual on my first playthrough, but it was by no means easy. I've made the same decision each time since. I can't roleplay leaving Alistair at the gate, and I don't want Anora to be queen, either.

Modifié par errant_knight, 28 juillet 2010 - 03:00 .

[TJPags]

Seriously, I don't get the whole "controversy" about this.

You're job as a Grey Warden is to stop the blight.  That's pretty much it.  I don't see anything in the codex, or recall anything in the game, which adds "and prevent other types of evil" into the job description.

So, stop blight = kill archie, so soul can't go into another darkspawn and continue the blight.  A side effect of doing that has always been, the one who does, dies.

This accomplishes the goal - archie is dead, soul doesn't go into another darkspawn and continue the blight, job done.  And hey, added bonus, you live.

Now, as to Morrigan's motives . . . she was the second character you met (who didn't die an idiotic death, anyway) right after Alistair.  In other words, you've been travelling with her THE WHOLE GAME.

If you aren't sure about her motives, you're no good at reading people.  You either trust her, in which case there's NO reason NOT to do this, or you don't trust her, in which case, why are you even listening to her after she sneaks into your room in the night?

Seems clear cut to me - trust her, do it.  Don't trust her, you probably shouldn't even be willing to listen to the proposal.  Don't know which - well, just what are you doing being in charge  here, anyway???

Just my 2 cents (worth even less now due to inflation)

[SusanStoHelit]

I have no problem with the OGB at all, in and of itself. As some others here have said I find the concept fascinating. In addition to that, I get to actually save an old god (and each of my characters so far has either barely tolerated or utterly despised the Chantry), which is a plus. Furthermore, there is some hope in some of their minds that this old god may actually be a way to save the world, not destroy it. End the blights forever.

For all those reasons, most of them have done the DR. What I do have a problem with, on occasion, is the emotional entanglements side of things. If you are going to do the ritual, it's an easier decision for some than others for those emotional reasons.

Male characters may be in love with Morrigan - in which case, no problem. If they're not, and are romancing someone else, they can have Alistair do the ritual - again no problem. A female character, however, cannot do the ritual herself. If she's not romancing Alistair - there's no problem. But , if she is romancing him, she has to have her LI do the ritual. That's difficult.

Now understand, it's not difficult for my characters themselves, they understand the harsh options. It's hard for them to ask Alistair (whom they love) to do this with someone he doesn't like or trust (regardless of how my character feels about her). And to produce a baby who will be a bastard, of the fatherless kind, when he had such a negative experience of that himself. Because I never lie to him about it.

[Sattva]

TJPags wrote...

Seriously, I don't get the whole "controversy" about this.

Ah, I might clear this out... My initial point was that it's hard to compare death to five (half-hour?  ) minutes of... well... sticking a body part... ahem, you get the drift. And if it's for Alistair to do - the better (he could gain some XP at least).

As to telling the truth... what's the gain? To worry him sick with no real reason behind it? Is this some kind of elaborate torture?

[Sarah1281]

Sattva wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Seriously, I don't get the whole "controversy" about this.

Ah, I might clear this out... My initial point was that it's hard to compare death to five (half-hour?  ) minutes of... well... sticking a body part... ahem, you get the drift. And if it's for Alistair to do - the better (he could gain some XP at least).

As to telling the truth... what's the gain? To worry him sick with no real reason behind it? Is this some kind of elaborate torture?

Since he's the one actually sleeping with her, I'd rather he knew so he could make an informed decision. He might be happier not knowing but I'd rather he knew what he was getting himself into.

[balmung03]

I think if anyone ever made a mod for "DR scenes", the one w/ Alistair and Morrigan would have to include some sort of domineering and/or insulting lines on the part of Alistair, considering his 'relationship' with Morrigan leading up to the event.

*aside* Mod community, get on it!

Back on topic, unless I was playing a "neutral evil" or worse character who couldn't (or wouldn't) do the DR, I think I would have to let Alistair in on the whole plan. Especially since you'd technically be misleading or straight-up lying to your fellow GW otherwise.

Just had an interesting thought/idea; perhaps have DA3 centered around the story of the OGB? It'd be interesting to see that kind of a character progressing through a personal storyline, especially if he/she had a hand in quelling the 6th Blight.

Modifié par balmung03, 29 juillet 2010 - 12:46 .

[Khavos]

TJPags wrote...

Seriously, I don't get the whole "controversy" about this.

You're job as a Grey Warden is to stop the blight.  That's pretty much it.  I don't see anything in the codex, or recall anything in the game, which adds "and prevent other types of evil" into the job description.

Primarily, I imagine, because Blights are far and away the largest possible threat to Thedas.  Nothing else really comes close.  They're the guardians against the greatest threat the people face.  Potentially creating an even larger threat would be counterintuitive.  I have no idea that the Dark Ritual actually could end up proving to be an even larger threat, but why take that chance?

Ultimately, though, you're right, it's the Wardens' job to stop the Blight, and stopping the Blight through sacrifice is how they've always done it; it's right there in their motto, even.  Stopping it without the Dark Ritual leaves the fewest question marks for the future safety of Thedas and the people they're sworn to protect from the Blight.  Using blood magic just to save your own skin would, I think, seem rather cowardly to the rest of the Wardens.

[Corker]

When the real estate agent called to tell us that "oh, another couple is really, really interested in that house I showed you, you should really decide now," I told her the 'other couple' could have it with my blessings.



What tears it for me is that Morrigan has known about the Warden's sacrifice since the beginning and has never mentioned it. She saved it til the last possible moment - so the writers could have a gotcha! I suppose, but it come off like she knows darn well that if you have the time to think about the situation, you'll turn her down. When a deal really is good, you don't have to be pressured into it, so her used car salesperson shenanigans don't sit well with me.