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[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

In Exile wrote...

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

Their class system falls short of making a mage/rogue hybrid however, which was a bit of a disappointment. A mage can't learn to sneak or a street urchin can't be blessed with magical talent? Hmm...it's a big blackhole in the class system, especially since rogues can be trained as warriors with specializations focusing on this, and mages can be warriors with the right specialization.

Being a mage is a birth thing - you either are or aren't. Plausibly you could be a street urchin as a mage... but then you'd never be a mage. And if you grew up in the Circle, you weren't getting chances to learn to stab people, steal, or sneak around outside (it is in fact illegal according to the Chantry for an apprentice to leave the tower or learn martial combat).

A street urchin  blessed with magical talent has two outcomes: burned at the stake out of fear or forced into the Circle, which leads to the above. Supposing you have a street urchin who surives, you just end up with someone who hasn't learned any magic but could become an abomination at any point.

As for the the actual reason game reason: they want to keep classes unique and not have D&D combinatorial class explosion.

Yeah I understand the divine magic not being lore bit and agree. The maker isn't real! hehe

What I had in mind was a combination class, I guess. Some fighting skill tree, some magic. An Arcane mage can wear armour and carry a sword but he is still a mage with a mage only skill set.

As for being born with magic, give your warrior templar spec and he's suddenly casting Holy Smite. Similar thing could be done for clerics.. but whatever, I don't expect BW will add classes like this anyway, just idle speculation on how they would do it and what people would like to see.

[bzombo]

the game was so different back then. i wish there were patches they would release that could unlock some of the cut content.

[Heimdall]

Shinian2 wrote...

As for being born with magic, give your warrior templar spec and he's suddenly casting Holy Smite. Similar thing could be done for clerics..

That's always bothered me a bit, lore wise.  But I can forgive it with the lyrium explanation and that it is only a specilization.  If they made a whole nother class with magic besides mage that would be too much of a stretch for me

[Time4Tiddy]

While cleric wouldn't make sense, I could see an additional mage specialization that was a priest type of class. Using prayers and mantras perhaps similar to how bards or cleansing aura work. I could see giving them a talent that switched willpower for magic to determine spellpower (kind of like Lethality for rogues), and maybe some undead specific skills, like an aura that initially stuns undead and later causes damage, or a mantra that gives your whole party +attack +damage when fighting undead.



Not sure how they'd add a priest spec to mage, given the conflict between Chantry and Circle, but just speculating on how it could be implemented.

[In Exile]

Shinian2 wrote...
Yeah I understand the divine magic not being lore bit and agree. The maker isn't real! hehe

What I had in mind was a combination class, I guess. Some fighting skill tree, some magic. An Arcane mage can wear armour and carry a sword but he is still a mage with a mage only skill set.

Lore-wise, the Chantry does not teach certain magic. Technically, an arcane warrior is a maleficar, because the arcane warrior uses magic forbidden by the chantry (just like Morrigan is technically a maleficar).

The Chantry also does not allow for Circle mages to learn how to fight. A way of control, if you will.

Not to say Bioware couldn't include this class - just that lore wise it would have to be an apostate mage or a maleficar.

As for being born with magic, give your warrior templar spec and he's suddenly casting Holy Smite. Similar thing could be done for clerics.. but whatever, I don't expect BW will add classes like this anyway, just idle speculation on how they would do it and what people would like to see.

What templars do is special. Alistair comments on this too. Templars don't use magic (at least according to the Chantry), but even if we say they did, they can't use magic in the same way a mage can. What they seem to learn are very specific talents that can affect mana, that may or may not be influenced by lyrium.

[In Exile]

Time4Tiddy wrote...

While cleric wouldn't make sense, I could see an additional mage specialization that was a priest type of class. Using prayers and mantras perhaps similar to how bards or cleansing aura work. I could see giving them a talent that switched willpower for magic to determine spellpower (kind of like Lethality for rogues), and maybe some undead specific skills, like an aura that initially stuns undead and later causes damage, or a mantra that gives your whole party +attack +damage when fighting undead.

Not sure how they'd add a priest spec to mage, given the conflict between Chantry and Circle, but just speculating on how it could be implemented.

In the setting, undead aren't evil. The undead are just corpses with demons in them. They aren't the same kind of abomination as, well, mages.

From a lore standpoint, mages are your diametric moral opposite to priests.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Yes, I absolutely agree that the lore doesn't allow for a traditional Cleric type

[Aussenseiter]

I would really just like to see an actual spell line devoted to melee combat; with that and healing spells an arcane warrior would be really close to a cleric build.



Awakening had the right idea with the close range AoE spells you could cast with your weapon out.

[FedericoV]

Shinian2 wrote...

I doubt there will be new classes in the DA universe, but if there was what would you like to see?

I would like to see the complete removal of the concept of classes/levels and the substitution of it with a skill/talent system based on professions and backgrounds. I know, they are never going to make such a drastic choice but a man can dream . In the mean time, I would like 'em to unify the rogue and warrior class in to a single class instead of introducing a cleric clas wich do not mean a lot considering DA's lore.

[Haexpane]

Ulicus wrote...

Since Mages fill the healing role, why do you need a cleric? 

I hate how mages/healers are the "same" in DA lore.  

I prefer
Warriors
 - sub classes
Rogues
- sub classes
Bards (bards are not rogues!)
-sub classes
Rangers (rangers are NOT ROGUES!)
-subclasses
Mage
-subclasses, wizzard, summoner, enchanter, necromancer
Clerics
Paladins
Shadowknights
Shaman
Druids

The idea that you can be a healer/arcanewarrior/offensive mage all in one is just annoyingly over powered IMO

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

In Exile wrote...

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

Their class system falls short of making a mage/rogue hybrid however, which was a bit of a disappointment. A mage can't learn to sneak or a street urchin can't be blessed with magical talent? Hmm...it's a big blackhole in the class system, especially since rogues can be trained as warriors with specializations focusing on this, and mages can be warriors with the right specialization.

Being a mage is a birth thing - you either are or aren't. Plausibly you could be a street urchin as a mage... but then you'd never be a mage. And if you grew up in the Circle, you weren't getting chances to learn to stab people, steal, or sneak around outside (it is in fact illegal according to the Chantry for an apprentice to leave the tower or learn martial combat).

A street urchin  blessed with magical talent has two outcomes: burned at the stake out of fear or forced into the Circle, which leads to the above. Supposing you have a street urchin who surives, you just end up with someone who hasn't learned any magic but could become an abomination at any point.

As for the the actual reason game reason: they want to keep classes unique and not have D&D combinatorial class explosion.

I don't think the situations would be as black and white as you suggest. Afterall, Morrigan avoids the Chantry with Flemmeth, so does one of the companions in DA:Awakenings. Wouldn't magically gifted people learn to sneak around, isn't sneaking a skill everyone can try to improve upon for that matter? Rogue class supporters of course will say "that's the only thing rogues have, leave us alone!" but rogues can still be the best at that. I would like to think it would be possible for a rogue to be blessed with magic as a talent and be smart enough not to be caught, it could be entirely possible.

[Haexpane]

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...
 isn't sneaking a skill everyone can try to improve upon for that matter? Rogue class supporters of course will say "that's the only thing rogues have, leave us alone!" but rogues can still be the best at that. I would like to think it would be possible for a rogue to be blessed with magic as a talent and be smart enough not to be caught, it could be entirely possible.

Well if we want to get into "real life logic" no.  Some people just have a "knack" for being sneaky.  For instance my girlfriend when she was a kid loved to hide and jump out and scare people.  To this day as an adult she is still very gifted at sneaking and surprising people.  BOO!

I've never been able to sneak up on anyone ever.  even when I think I'm being sneaky, she can hear me and know exactly what I am doing even tho she is upstairs in another room.

My GF =  Rogue/assassin   Me = Sword/sheild Warrior/champion

[nuclearpengu1nn]

a Beard

[In Exile]

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

I don't think the situations would be as black and white as you suggest. Afterall, Morrigan avoids the Chantry with Flemmeth, so does one of the companions in DA:Awakenings.

Eh? Neither Anders nor Morrigan avoid the chantry. Morrigan and Flemeth just murder the templars who are after them, and all Anders does is flee from the Circle. Eventually the Templars decide that Anders is more annoyance than he is worth, but Anders was a born and raised Circle mage, and never managed to avoid the templars.

So, in fact, we have evidence that characters don't escape templars at all. Morrigan is free to be an apostate because Flemeth is some kind of arcane ancient horror that can murder a whole company of templars on a whim, not because they haven't found her. Morrigan even tells you about how Flemeth would kill templars in one of her dialogue options.

Wouldn't magically gifted people learn to sneak around, isn't sneaking a skill everyone can try to improve upon for that matter? Rogue class supporters of course will say "that's the only thing rogues have, leave us alone!" but rogues can still be the best at that. I would like to think it would be possible for a rogue to be blessed with magic as a talent and be smart enough not to be caught, it could be entirely possible.

Learn to sneak around, where? I suppose around the circle they could try, but it call comes back to suspicious behaviour and the First Enchanter being more than happy to purge you if you threaten to become a liability. I thought Irving was a great character precisely because of how much a manipulator he was.

Sneaking is a skill that requires practice. And so does picking locks. But where would a circle mage encounter either? And if you have a four year old kid who has magical talent, going by Wynne's story, the talent is raw and uncontrollable, and the children end up outing themselves by setting people aflame, etc. Then the templars come, and it's either off to the Circle or crowd murder.

It is not that it is inconceivable for someone to do this, but for something to be a class it has to be more common than fluke.

[Time4Tiddy]

The only comment I'd make on the rogue/mage idea is that for some reason ANY class can learn to pickpocket. But only a rogue can learn to stealth. I do kind of find that to be odd. How, logically, would a mage who would arouse suspicion by sneaking around, as you say, have learned to pick pockets? I personally have no issue with locking rogue skills off from other classes, but the inclusion of Steal as a core trait for any class is just odd.

[Suron]

Shinian2 wrote...

Thomas9321 wrote...

I always facepalm when people suggest clerics. It would totally destroy Dragon Age lore. The Maker either doesn't exist or ignores the world, thus no divine magic there, the elven gods had that thing with Fen' Harel so they're out as a source of divine magic. Clerics can't exist without a retcon of EPIC proportions.

I know, but I wasnt suggesting divine magic at all. it would be lyrium based. Templar specs can cast spells, why not a specialised priest class?

The reason I'd find it useful is it would free up your mage to be dps..

Anyway, of course it isnt really necessary, just a discussion on how to add a new class.

Any suggestions for other classes they'd like to see?

dear....GOD..no

[Seifz]

I really can't think of any way to add a fourth class to Dragon Age. The entire game was built around the idea of three classes (Warrior, Rogue, and Mage) and the concept of specializations. Everything can be added as specializations.



The real problem is that specializations don't count for enough. They're only four talents deep and we're already taking three of them in Awakening. They need to be deeper and somewhat exclusive. That'd fix just about everything.

[Time4Tiddy]

It would be nice to add a specialization to rogue that actually enhanced archery. As it is now maybe you take a few skills in bard, or maybe you take one level in duelist, but none of the specializations are really designed with archery in mind. I'm thinking along the lines of Arcane Archer, with several shots with magical effects. Or a skill that let you move while shooting arrows, so you could be repositioning your archer without losing dps. I dunno, just something for archers at all.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

In Exile wrote...

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

I don't think the situations would be as black and white as you suggest. Afterall, Morrigan avoids the Chantry with Flemmeth, so does one of the companions in DA:Awakenings.

Eh? Neither Anders nor Morrigan avoid the chantry. Morrigan and Flemeth just murder the templars who are after them, and all Anders does is flee from the Circle. Eventually the Templars decide that Anders is more annoyance than he is worth, but Anders was a born and raised Circle mage, and never managed to avoid the templars.

So, in fact, we have evidence that characters don't escape templars at all. Morrigan is free to be an apostate because Flemeth is some kind of arcane ancient horror that can murder a whole company of templars on a whim, not because they haven't found her. Morrigan even tells you about how Flemeth would kill templars in one of her dialogue options.

Wouldn't magically gifted people learn to sneak around, isn't sneaking a skill everyone can try to improve upon for that matter? Rogue class supporters of course will say "that's the only thing rogues have, leave us alone!" but rogues can still be the best at that. I would like to think it would be possible for a rogue to be blessed with magic as a talent and be smart enough not to be caught, it could be entirely possible.

Learn to sneak around, where? I suppose around the circle they could try, but it call comes back to suspicious behaviour and the First Enchanter being more than happy to purge you if you threaten to become a liability. I thought Irving was a great character precisely because of how much a manipulator he was.

Sneaking is a skill that requires practice. And so does picking locks. But where would a circle mage encounter either? And if you have a four year old kid who has magical talent, going by Wynne's story, the talent is raw and uncontrollable, and the children end up outing themselves by setting people aflame, etc. Then the templars come, and it's either off to the Circle or crowd murder.

It is not that it is inconceivable for someone to do this, but for something to be a class it has to be more common than fluke.

Okay, first off, Morrigan is arrogant and was raised by a very powerful abomination, and Anders is...well dumb, so neither would make a good mage/rogue. Their personalities wouldn't make them ever want to be subtle, I mean hell man, just look at how Morrigan dresses. I am not sure why you picked those examples at all other than to aid my point so thank you!

On your second response you are assuming that all mages would be still in the tower. And isn't the point of being good at sneaking not being caught? Irwin isn't an uber-ninja, he's a mage so unless your character is exceptionally clumsy and delusional about being so or novice at subterfuge, why would he/she be instantly caught? I don't see how you are caught up on the idea that a mage/rogue would HAVE to be a Circle mage. Magic manifests itself in many different ways, hince the different spell schools.

Assuming that everyone discovers magical ability in Thedas by setting a villager on fire is a bit much too. Perhaps a person would learn how to heal first when a friend or guardian figure is injured badly? Perhaps, a person is being picked on by a bully and casts the heroic defense spell on themself in a type of instinctual wild-magic connection with the Fade? And perhaps in any situation where magic presents itself, a person's family would have the opposite reaction of turning away the magic user, instead sheltering the young mage?
 
There's a huge amount of possibility for potential story out there that you are missing if you sit down and think about it. Not all mages end up in the Circle and it makes no sense that mages cannot learn how to hide or pick locks. Why would a mage ever learn how to bend their magic so they could wear heavy armor and swing a sword more effectively when they can just hit people with a fireball or petrify attackers? Doesn't make any sense does it? But hey, there's the arcane warrior specialization.

[Rubbish Hero]

Weak class with good party buffs.

[Haexpane]

Seifz wrote...

I really can't think of any way to add a fourth class to Dragon Age. The entire game was built around the idea of three classes (Warrior, Rogue, and Mage) and the concept of specializations. Everything can be added as specializations.

The real problem is that specializations don't count for enough. They're only four talents deep and we're already taking three of them in Awakening. They need to be deeper and somewhat exclusive. That'd fix just about everything.

YES. The fact that you can have an Arcane Warrior/Healer/Walking Bomber/Necro/Enchanter all in one is beyond unbalanced.