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[Sarah1281]

So I was looking at the epilogues in the toolset and since I've never been stupid enough to go Harrowmont w/ Anvil, I had only heard about that ending and what it actually says is a bit different than what I'd be told (or a lot different). As such, I decided to just go ahead and post the dwarf epilogues.



Harrowmont w/ Anvil: In Orzammar, King Harrowmont quickly put down Bhelen's rebellion and then passed a series of laws to please the clan lords. Unfortunately, that isolated the dwarves even further from the surface. Caste restrictions and the rights of the nobles both grew, and trade with the human lands was all but cut off. After a law excluding the casteless from common areas of the city was passed, a rebellion saw the slums reduced practically to rubble. Although outrage was widespread, the Assembly remained united behind King Harrowmont.



Harrowmont w/out Anvil: In Orzammar, King Harrowmont found himself in a protracted battle against Bhelen's rebellion that left him unable to gain the stability he needed. The clan lords objected to many of his measures in the Assembly, and only his efforts to increase the dwarves' isolation from the surface met with any success. In time, Harrowmont's health began to fail. Some claimed it was poison, while others said it was a flagging spirit. Either way, after a protracted illness, the king finally passed away. The wrangling in the Assembly for a successor began almost immediately.



Harrowmont Aid Boon: When the first human armies arrived from Ferelden, they found themselves blocked at the city gates. Harrowmont feared the disruption the humans would cause and permitted only limited aid in the form of equipment and herbal medicines. (WTF? They were just passing through on the way to save your city from darkspawn! If you'll let the casteless fight darkspawn down there, why not humans?!?!)



Bhelen King: In Orzammar, King Bhelen quickly proved himself a reformer. Trade with the surface lands increased and caste restrictions were loosened. The casteless were permitted to take arms against the darkspawn in exchange for new freedoms. For the first time in generations, the line in the Deep Roads was pushed back, and a few thaigs were reclaimed. Bhelen's reforms quickly found him enemies within the warrior and noble castes, however, and after several assassination attempts, the Assembly was dissolved. The king then ruled alone--some said as a tyrant, others said as a visionary determined to drag Orzammar into the modern world.



Bhelen Aid Boon: When the first human armies arrived from Ferelden, King Bhelen welcomed them with open arms. Within months, the darkspawn were driven back as far as the Dead Trenches, and the first dwarven warrior to return with a relic retaken from the gates of Bownammar was greeted by cheering, jubilant crowds.



DN US: The Assembly posthumously declared <FirstName/> a Paragon after months of deliberation. He/she was buried in the earth beneath Orzammar next to his/her father--his/her Aeducan name restored. A new statue was erected in the Commons and a new house founded in his/her honor.



DC US: The Assembly posthumously declared <FirstName/> a Paragon, following months of deliberation... the first duster ever to receive the honor. A new house was founded in his/her name, and so many casteless flocked to its banner that it became one of the largest in the city. (Seriously? What about Gherlon the Blood-Risen that Rica tells you about in the DC origin? Was she just making him up?)



Dwarf alive: The Assembly unanimously declared <FirstName/> a living Paragon, following months of deliberation. A new statue was erected in the Commons and a new house founded in the Paragon's name, quickly drawing a great number of followers from every caste.



Anvil destroyed: Although the Anvil of the Void was destroyed, rumors about its location crept into Orzammar. Years later, thanks to the defeat of the darkspawn on the surface, a few determined smiths managed to locate the Anvil's remains. They examined the ruins of the Anvil, and, upon returning to Orzammar with their findings, convinced the Shaperate to attempt to recreate Caridin's research. A new golem was created, bound with a spirit taken from the Fade. The golem immediately went insane, killing several shapers before it was destroyed. The research was branded excessively dangerous and sealed away. Whispers of its existence circulated throughout Orzammar, however, and demand among the smith caste to reopen Caridin's research refused to abate.



Anvil preserved: It was not long before Branka mastered Caridin's technique, learning how to use the Anvil of the Void to create new golems--the first in many centuries. The dwarven people greeted this news with cheers, though few knew of the cost.



Harrowmont King Anvil Preserved: Initially, King Harrowmont was more than willing to provide volunteers for Branka. The golems were sorely needed to crush Bhelen's rebellion, after all, and they did so with success. But eventually, Harrowmont declared that no new dwarven souls could be used on the Anvil. The unending need for golems in the Deep Roads, however, gave rise to secret surface raids to kidnap humans and elves for the mad Paragon. When this came to light, a brief war broke out between Orzammar and Ferelden. The gates to the subterranean city were sealed and Harrowmont's kingdom became more isolated than ever. Branka insists, of course, that the raids on the surface continue.



Bhelen King Anvil Preserved: At first, King Bhelen worked eagerly with Branka to provide subjects--willing or not--so that the golems could push the darkspawn back. This arrangement was not to last, however. Before long, Branka began to refuse to create golems only for the king, who soon banned use of the Anvil. His men attacked Branka's fortress in the Deep Roads, forcing her to shut it tight. Years into the siege, Bhelen was forced to relent. The fortress, guarded by Branka's golems, remained impenetrable. (Hey, this indicates Bhelen's going to be around for quite awhile)

[KnightofPhoenix]

Rarely have I seen so much epic win and so much epic fail in just 2 choices.

However one thing that makes me wonder. How many troops did Bhelen allow in?
Because it seems imprudent to me if he allowed them access whenever they want and with any number they want. It's dangerous if Orzammar starts becoming militarily dependent on surfacers.

Now I think he wouldn't leave much of the fighting to humans, or even a large part of it (I am basing that on his beliefs in the DN origin). I think he would want to make it clear that the dwarves, though in need of allies, are not pushovers. I think that the epilogue slide should have specified that. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 octobre 2010 - 12:52 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Yah its sad how the anvil works out really.



I was tempted to keep it a lot, but then I realized that Branka is more than a little insane, and cant be trusted with it. I wish I could keep it but so far I only kept it twice.



The Harrowmont and Bhelen choice is really well done though, the "obvious nice guy" turns out to be bad for Orzamar, where as the "obvious ruthless guy" turns out to be good for Orzamar.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I think the anvil choice is not that bad with Bhelen. Even though he fails to destroy Branka, he keeps her contained. And I assume he has golems for his own use, something that dwarves can attempt to study and replicate. So I don't really regret my anvil choice really. If my character had known for certain that he wouldn't need it to defeat the blight, he might have considered not keeping it (still, dwarves could use it when the darkspawn start flooding the deep roads again)

[Sarah1281]

Yeah, even when Harrowmont has legions of golems to make him competent, he STILL manages to get Orzammar into a brief war with Ferelden and reduce Dust Town to rubble.

[KnightofPhoenix]

You know that destroys the idea that Harrowmont is just a nice guy. He essentially mass murders the casteless with golems. And makes their life worse, which is something I would not have thought possible. And then they say Bhelen is a mass murderer.

[Giggles_Manically]

I am just not comfortable handing a weapon over to a crazy person.



That being said I hate how people say that there is no reason to pick Bhelen. Go to Dust Town and talk to people, than realize that Harrowmont is FINE with that.

Bhelen may be a brutal leader, but thats what Orzamar needs right now.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Bhelen may be a brutal leader, but thats what Orzamar needs right now.

From what I see, Harrowmont is more of a brutal leader with golems.
Bhelen doesn't do anything like that.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 octobre 2010 - 12:58 .

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Bhelen may be a brutal leader, but thats what Orzamar needs right now.

From what I see, Harrowmont is more of a brutal leader with golems.
Bhelen doesn't do anything like that.

Bhelen does plot, murder, and wipe out all those in his immediate family to get to the top though.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Bhelen may be a brutal leader, but thats what Orzamar needs right now.

From what I see, Harrowmont is more of a brutal leader with golems.
Bhelen doesn't do anything like that.

Bhelen does plot, murder, and wipe out all those in his immediate family to get to the top though.

That's not a mass murderer. In the sense of killing a large part of his own population.
In terms of sheer brutality, Harromont with golems is more brutal than Bhelen, who because of his efficiency doesn't need to resort to those methods.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 octobre 2010 - 01:11 .

[Sarah1281]

Bhelen does plot, murder, and wipe out all those in his immediate family to get to the top though.

And that is not a problem for anyone who doesn't happen to be a member of his immediate family, which is most of Orzammar.

[Giggles_Manically]

Thats in the Epilouge though.

In game Bhelen is more brutal than Harrowmont.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Bhelen does plot, murder, and wipe out all those in his immediate family to get to the top though.

And that is not a problem for anyone who doesn't happen to be a member of his immediate family, which is most of Orzammar.

Indeed, "widespread outrage" at Harrowmont's brutality against the casteless implies that most of Orzammar is outraged, and only the Deshyrs whose boots he licks, are behind him.
That's how I understood it at least.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Thats in the Epilouge though.
In game Bhelen is more brutal than Harrowmont.

Smarter, more cunning and more aggressive than Harromwont, yes.
I wouldn't call that brutality. But maybe it's just semantics. 

In any case, what he did affects only a few selected targets. The rest of Orzammar is not affected and I don't think they care much.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 octobre 2010 - 01:18 .

[Zjarcal]

You guys will probably hate me for this, but in four games the only time I placed Bhelen on the throne was with my blood mage, and that's because the Harrowmont crier said that "the warden is working with demons!", which pissed her off, causing her to go for Bhelen instead.

The way I RP, none of my wardens care about who gets the throne. They always talk to Vartag Gavorn first and since he's rather nasty if you don't express full commitment from the start, they dismiss him and go for Harrowmont. I know, terrible for Orzammar...

Also, I keep hearing people say "go to dust town to see how bad Harrowmont is", but at which point during the Orzammar quest does Harrowmont express disdain for the casteless? His crier does at one point but that's it. I know Harrowmont is terrible for the casteless, but it's not easy for me to come to that conclusion based on what we see in the game (at least not without further digging for info).

About the Anvil, I never keep it. While I think it's a powerful tool (and with volunteers it would be perfect for Orzammar), I just can't justify handing it to Branka. I also respect Caridin's choice to destroy it since it's his creation after all (I know you will all flame me for saying this...).

Modifié par Zjarcal, 20 octobre 2010 - 01:19 .

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Bhelen does plot, murder, and wipe out all those in his immediate family to get to the top though.

And that is not a problem for anyone who doesn't happen to be a member of his immediate family, which is most of Orzammar.

Indeed, "widespread outrage" at Harrowmont's brutality against the casteless implies that most of Orzammar is outraged, and only the Deshyrs whose boots he licks, are behind him.
That's how I understood it at least.

Yeah, if just the casteless were outraged then they wouldn't have phrased it like that because the deshyrs would never break with the king over casteless complaining. I've got to say, though, that given how little everyone in Orzammar thinks of the casteless (what, with them not existing, being allowed to be hurt or killed with no consequence, not legally being allowed to work, ect.) if Orzammar in general is outraged then Harrowmont + Anvil must really **** them over to an unbelievable degree.

Edit: I mean, I just heard that Harrowmont + Anvil tightened caste restrictions but this is another matter altogther.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 20 octobre 2010 - 01:21 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Zjarcal
Harrowmont is traditionalist which means he accepts the dwarven system in its totality, including the treatment of the casteless. He doesn't have to disdain them to be horrible to them. For him it's tradition. It's law. That's it, no debating it.

So while it might be hard to predict that he would go on to make their lives worse, I think it's fairly obvious that he is traditionalist and he doesn't want to change the status quo, which is bad for the casteless. Also, in his codex it's said he compromises with the Assembly, which is essentially the law and the status quo. So even if he wanted to improve the lot of the casteless (which I don't believe is the case), he will still bend over to the Assembly who don't seem to want change (I don't think Bhelen convinced them to side with him for change, but for profit and he ends up dissolving the assembly because they are that useless to him).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 octobre 2010 - 01:27 .

[Costin_Razvan]

(WTF? They were just passing through on the way to save your city from darkspawn! If you'll let the casteless fight darkspawn down there, why not humans?!?!

This is the man you placed on the throne, GJ.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 20 octobre 2010 - 01:28 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 if Orzammar in general is outraged then Harrowmont + Anvil must really **** them over to an unbelievable degree.

I think it also has to do with his isolationist policy that will ruin Orzammar's economy.
Also, maybe using Golems against dwarves when they are supposed to be fighting darkspawn frigthened many.

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

(WTF? They were just passing through on the way to save your city from darkspawn! If you'll let the casteless fight darkspawn down there, why not humans?!?!

This is the man you placed on the throne, GJ.

I had to for story purposes and that's only talking about the boon. I'm probably going to ignore his reaction to the aid anyway since the epilogue slides kind of shoehorn the Warden.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Zjarcal
Harrowmont is traditionalist which means he accepts the dwarven system in its totality, including the treatment of the casteless. He doesn't have to disdain them to be horrible to them. For him it's tradition. It's law. That's it, no debating it.

So while it might be hard to predict that he would go on to make their lives worse, I think it's fairly obvious that he is traditionalist and he doesn't want to change the status quo, which is bad for the casteless. Also, in his codex it's said he compromises with the Assembly, which is essentially the law and the status quo. So even if he wanted to improve the lot of the casteless (which I don't believe is the case), he will still bend over to the Assembly who don't seem to want change (I don't think Bhelen convinced them to side with him for change, but for profit and he ends up dissolving the assembly because they are that useless to him).

True. Like I said, with some further research you can easily reach the conclusion, but my wardens never bother asking anyone about how things work in Orzammar (and I sometimes forget to read the codex entries), they just ask "who do I talk to get my troops"...

I know, terrible of me. 

[Costin_Razvan]

I had to for story purposes and that's only talking about the boon. I'm probably going to ignore his reaction to the aid anyway since the epilogue slides kind of shoehorn the Warden.

Ah, so in order to justify your choice in the story you are going to ignore how Harrowmont reacts. Just plain lovely.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
True. Like I said, with some further research you can easily reach the conclusion, but my wardens never bother asking anyone about how things work in Orzammar (and I sometimes forget to read the codex entries), they just ask "who do I talk to get my troops"...

I know, terrible of me. 

Hey, you are not actually obliged to care really.

My first character (Cousland) picked Harrowmont because he was like "I need troops, this guy is a general and he is experienced, I'll go with him, I don't care about the poor or the dwarves in general". Eh, I don't think he cares about the results either.  

Of course I facepalmed, but I forced myself to rp a character not based on myself properly.

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I had to for story purposes and that's only talking about the boon. I'm probably going to ignore his reaction to the aid anyway since the epilogue slides kind of shoehorn the Warden.

Ah, so in order to justify your choice in the story you are going to ignore how Harrowmont reacts. Just plain lovely.

I'm not trying to justify my choices as I don't really see a reason to. Having humans not be able to directly come into the Deep Roads and fight is hardly a make-or-break situation. And can you please not bring up my story every time I say something negative about Harrowmont as king? I do prefer Bhelen on the throne but I didn't put that in a fanfic. It's just a fanfic. You seem to be taking it a bit too seriously.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 You seem to be taking it a bit too seriously.

Because Sarah, this is not a fan thing. This is a religion.

[inserts Bhelen Dwarven Messiah pic here]