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[Giggles_Manically]

That second pic is trippy Gilsa.

[Sarah1281]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

So is the DLC a must have a meh, or somewhere in the land of Dwarf lovers only?
Also has anyone tried importing an US ending into it yet?

I haven't but I don't see why it wouldn't work. The US choice has no save afterwards so if you import from a post-refuse-DR save then it will assume you let Alistair or Loghain sacrifice themselves or why would you try to continue? 

[mellifera]

Not really, Gilsa. It just seems there are waaay too many effects going on that only become more annoying when the talent effects are on too (since the mods that let you turn them off don't work for it). It's just one big busy headache, fighting in that condition, especially in a small space with 3483294 golems attacking you... gah.

[Loerwyn]

Looks like I'll give it a miss, then. Along with Lillyanna's Song and Bugspawn Chronicles.

[Sarah1281]

So I'm playing through the DLC (I like it better than Leliana's Song so far although I dislike the continued references to you being forced to stay on the Surface post-Blight for however long they're going to drag this out) and Jerrik's concern for Brogan...he's a noble! Sure he may only be distantly related to the main Dace family but still! This is...weird.

[Raonar]

My FANFIC HAS BEEN UPDATED!!!!

*indulges in an unhealthy dose of self-absorption*

Anyway, nice screenies Gilsa. And I don't think I'll be able to get that DLC until tomorrow or the day after, or maybe the end of the week. Ah well, Real life and all that.

I'll be waiting to hear just how long it actually is.

EDIT

Maybe they're trying to say dwarf nobles aren't ALL bad after they so epically made it look like a murderous tyrant is Orzammar's only hope for a better future.

Modifié par Raonar, 10 août 2010 - 10:24 .

[Sarah1281]

Raonar wrote...

My FANFIC HAS BEEN UPDATED!!!!

*indulges in an unhealthy dose of self-absorption*

Anyway, nice screenies Gilsa. And I don't think I'll be able to get that DLC until tomorrow or the day after, or maybe the end of the week. Ah well, Real life and all that.

I'll be waiting to hear just how long it actually is.

EDIT

Maybe they're trying to say dwarf nobles aren't ALL bad after they so epically made it look like a murderous tyrant is Orzammar's only hope for a better future.

But...but it's House Dace. The only House that I would have more trouble buying this from is House Gavorn. I would say Ivo, but Wojech seems pissed at you for beating his brother and that may be concern mixed it with the wounded pride.

[Eudaemonium]

Despite being an elf player (primarily), I do love DA's dwarves, nd I really enjoyed this DLC (As a note, whether you preserved the Anvil also carries over into it, I got a rather nice dialogue with Jerrik talking about Branka - its when you look at the Runic Golem before getting the rod). I really enjoy a lot of the Deep Roads lore, and the Harvester creeped-me-the-****-out. I wonder how a casteless dwarf would react to it, reading the research notes.... =/

[Sarah1281]

Eudaemonium wrote...

Despite being an elf player (primarily), I do love DA's dwarves, nd I really enjoyed this DLC (As a note, whether you preserved the Anvil also carries over into it, I got a rather nice dialogue with Jerrik talking about Branka - its when you look at the Runic Golem before getting the rod). I really enjoy a lot of the Deep Roads lore, and the Harvester creeped-me-the-****-out. I wonder how a casteless dwarf would react to it, reading the research notes.... =/

I didn't get that talk.  Maybe it's because I imported someone who didn't get that far? 

[Eudaemonium]

The jist of it is you ask why they were looking for golems since they have them again, and Jerrik says that Branka might be makign golems for Orzammar *now*, but everyone knows she's basically nuts and its only a matter of time before something goes very wrong on that front, so they don't want to only have her as a source of golems. You can read it as "foreshadowing" of what happens in the epilogue slides from Origins if you preserve the Anvil.

[Costin_Razvan]

Maybe they're trying to say dwarf nobles aren't ALL bad after they so epically made it look like a murderous tyrant is Orzammar's only hope for a better future.

You say that as if Bhelen would even come close to some tyrants we had in our own history....he really really is far off from them in terms of the horrors they did.

You may not believe it, but fratricide was quite common among medieval Royalty.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 10 août 2010 - 10:53 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Costin hits it on the head again.



Assassinations, poisionings, kidnappings, torture, ransoms, terror tactics, and threats of war were all common and came with the job of leadership through history. Even into today an understanding of these at the very least is required to be in power.



I think of Bhelen as a lighter version of Caesar, and a reformer like the Graccius brothers.

Also under the caste system many would consider Harrowmont a tyrant as well what with the casteless and all.

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Maybe they're trying to say dwarf nobles aren't ALL bad after they so epically made it look like a murderous tyrant is Orzammar's only hope for a better future.

You say that as if Bhelen would even come close to some tyrants we had in our own history....he really really is far off from them in terms of the horrors they did.

You may not believe it, but fratricide was quite common among medieval Royalty.

Regardless of how realistic or common that was in medieval times, he does have many people killed thus the 'murdering' and in the epilogue slide it's said that some call him a tyrant. There's really no need to rush to cite historical examples to defend him from what wasn't really an attack but an attempt to explain why the Dace brothers are so atypical given what we've seen of dwarven nobility.

[Costin_Razvan]

I think of Bhelen as a lighter version of Caesar, and a reformer like the Graccius brothers.

I think of him as Augustus, who was quite progressive as a leader ( even though his reforms DID eventually pave the way for the Roman Downfall they were quite impressive at the time, and it was only through abuse by other leaders that they destroyed the Empire ).

 he does have many people killed thus the 'murdering' and in the epilogue slide it's said that some call him a tyrant

There is no proof that he killed many people.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 10 août 2010 - 11:08 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I think of Bhelen as a lighter version of Caesar, and a reformer like the Graccius brothers.

I think of him as Augustus, who was quite progressive as a leader ( even though his reforms DID eventually pave the way for the Roman Downfall they were quite impressive at the time, and it was only through abuse by other leaders that they destroyed the Empire ).

 he does have many people killed thus the 'murdering' and in the epilogue slide it's said that some call him a tyrant

There is no proof that he killed many people.

You could also throw in Gaius Marius as well since recruiting casteless than giving them rights for doing so is exactly what he did. I wonder if they will get called Bhelen's Brontos for doing so.

That would be a awsome little easter egg in DA2.

[Costin_Razvan]

You could also throw in Gaius Marius as well since recruiting casteless than giving them rights for doing so is exactly what he did. I wonder if they will get called Bhelen's Brontos for doing so.

I suppose it would be quite fair to compare Bhelen to the person who instituted the Marian reforms. Though truthfully I see quite a number of issues with said reforms.

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

 he does have many people killed thus the 'murdering' and in the epilogue slide it's said that some call him a tyrant

There is no proof that he killed many people.

Okay, seriously? You're denying that? I'm not calling him a serial killer or saying he personally does it. Just that he has people killed which other nobles do as well. He has Harrowmont killed, he has both of his siblings killed (just because you could escape doesn't mean that the intent isn't there), if Baizyl fights in the Proving he has him killed, he has everyone in the carta killed if you side with him, he sends the sons of Harrowmont supporters to their death during the Blight...a lot of people, due to his words or actions, die. It's kind of obvious even if you don't find a list detailing everyone he has had killed.

[Costin_Razvan]

He sends the supporters of Harrowmont to fight the Blight, not necessarily to die. Yes I deny he killed many people.

And YOU slaughter the Carta, not him. He only orders that Jarvia be killed, which could have been done without gutting the entire Carta.

P.S. Still waiting for people to join my #Dwarves channel on Quaknet Mirc.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 10 août 2010 - 11:29 .

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

He sends the supporters of Harrowmont to fight the Blight, not necessarily to die. Yes I deny he killed many people.

And YOU slaughter the Carta, not him. He only orders that Jarvia be killed, which could have been done without gutting the entire Carta.

P.S. Still waiting for people to join my #Dwarves channel on Quaknet Mirc.

 I just can't believe that Bhelen could possibly get through his reign without having a lot of people killed. I don't need to prove it to see it as an extremely unlikely outcome. I mean, everyone else has people killed all the time so why would someone not held back by pesky morals and the King to boot be any different? 

Also...flesh as a cheap alternative to stone and steel? I think they're missing the point of golems.

Modifié par Seagloom, 11 août 2010 - 11:10 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I just can't believe that Bhelen could possibly get through his reign without having a lot of people killed. I don't need to prove it to see it as an extremely unlikely outcome. I mean, everyone else has people killed all the time so why would someone not held back by pesky morals and the King to boot be any different?

Then I will bluntly say that you don't know squat about history. Take a look at Augustus on wiki and you will understand what I mean.

[Giggles_Manically]

Bhelen may not have to slaughther everyone he crosses though Sarah.
That bloke in Tapsters would like him, the castless would love him, the merchants will worship him (more trade more MONEY!) and being the king most dwarves will be fine with him.

Although yes many nobles would like to kill him, but him removing most the assembly should help as well. There may be a lot of bloodshed early on but after Bhelen has been in for a while most people will just shrug their shoulders and accept it. Mainly since the ones who opposed him would be gone after a short while. So yes the early years will be bloody and turbulent like most leaders deal with, but stability will come after a while.

edit-Ninjaed by Costin.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 10 août 2010 - 11:42 .

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I just can't believe that Bhelen could possibly get through his reign without having a lot of people killed. I don't need to prove it to see it as an extremely unlikely outcome. I mean, everyone else has people killed all the time so why would someone not held back by pesky morals and the King to boot be any different?

Then I will bluntly say that you don't know squat about history. Take a look at Augustus on wiki and you will understand what I mean.

You don't need to insult me just because you disagree.

Listing RL historical examples of people who have managed to rule without having people killed (and that's just that we know of, btw, and who knows what people got up to that they weren't caught doing) does not mean that I have to accept that Bhelen, with what I know of him, would do the same.

[Sarah1281]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Bhelen may not have to slaughther everyone he crosses though Sarah.
That bloke in Tapsters would like him, the castless would love him, the merchants will worship him (more trade more MONEY!) and being the king most dwarves will be fine with him.

Although yes many nobles would like to kill him, but him removing most the assembly should help as well. There may be a lot of bloodshed early on but after Bhelen has been in for a while most people will just shrug their shoulders and accept it. Mainly since the ones who opposed him would be gone after a short while. So yes the early years will be bloody and turbulent like most leaders deal with, but stability will come after a while.

edit-Ninjaed by Costin.

And when exactly did I say Bhelen would go on a mad killing spree or kill many people every year of his reign? I just think, because of him in one way or another, many people will have died by the time he is through. He's already started on that.

Sure, Costin, Bhelen only asked Jarvia to die. Unless he has far too much faith in your ability to be a ninja assassin and get in and out of her carta without killing anyone then he's got to know what he ordered. And what about the mercenaries you find out he sent after you if you're a DN, betrayed Bhelen to Dulin, and killed Trian? He has to know what's going to happen to some of them. If he weren't trying to get the sons of Harrowmont supporters killed then why send just them? And those are only things that we, in the month or so down there, can find out.

[Costin_Razvan]

You don't need to insult me just because you disagree.

Actually I do like to mention to ignorant people that they are ignorant of the matter. Ignoring examples set by over 2.400 years of history is a huge example of this.

As I repeat myself, take a look at Augustus and you will see a great deal of Bhelen in him ( and that's just off the top of my head ).

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 10 août 2010 - 11:57 .

[ArawnNox]

You guys do seem to forget that many so called "reformist" roman rulers had to kill and plot and slander their way to the top. They had to kill dissidents and assassinate their rivals.