3015 réponses à ce sujet

[beggargirl]

PureMethodActor wrote...

soignee wrote...

sooooo glad someone else thought Jarvia was hot <.< I'd tap it.

There, corrected for ya

and yes, Jarvia was hot, and had a pretty face. I'd tap it as well

Such a shame that you have to kill her no matter what...

There are so many wonderful strong women in DA.  Rock on. 

[Merllle]

yukidama wrote...

Haha, I like the over-the-eye tattoos too. I changed my duster and gave her one (it's not the same one though) and like her look better now, adds a lot more visual interest. As to why she magically has it all of a sudden? A wizard did it?

Woah, yukidama... Your Warden is one of the preetiest dwarves I've ever seen!

[Sarah1281]

From the Alistair thread:

beggargirl wrote...

"Talk to the pro-Bhelen merchant and he also tells you about how progressive Bhelen is."

My Dwarf saw that people liked Harrowmont, believed that Endrin had wanted him to be king, knew that Behlen was a schemer and a liar, and figured out from the shaperate that he wanted to disband the council so that he could have a no questions asked reign. The fellow in tapsters (Helmi?) talked up Harrowmont, and when I spoke to Harrowmont I made him promise that if I was going to help him he had better take care of my sister. The decision was hard, but even if Behlen didn't become king, it didn't mean that my sister wouldn't still be living in Behlen's care in a noble house.

The people like Harrowmont...who aren't casteless. Endrin wanted Harrowmont to succeed him...and he also didn't care about the casteless. Bhelen's moral character has nothing to do with how he views the casteless and Rica being taken in and happy actually points to his lack of problems with them. Bhelen disbanding the Assembly who hate casteless is really going to help with those reforms he does (and meta-gaming-wise he only does that once they keep trying to kill him). Helmi's casteless views are, he admits, not ones other people share and he likes Harrowmont's moral character which really have nothing to do with casteless.

Harrowmont does NOT promise to take care of Rica. He tells you that he will not go after her but that she is House Aeducan's responsibility and you are very lucky they don't take out their anger that you took them out of power out on her by kicking her out. Non-meta-gaming-wise is it really the best plan to leave Rica in the care of people who now hate you?

I can see why you might have believed that Harrowmont might be what was best for Orzammar and many non-dwarven Wardens make that same mistake but none of the things you mentioned are, in any way, indications that Harrowmont would be good for casteless.

I think that just the facts that:
1) Harrowmont values tradition very highly
2) Orzammar tradition has casteless legally not exist, should never have been born, or should have been killed young
3) Bhelen scandalizes the more traditional folks by not hiding Rica like a shameful secret

are enough to show that Bhelen's better for the casteless regardless of whether he's best for the rest of Orzammar (which there is also plenty of evidence for but you were only asking how you could tell he wasn't good for the casteless).

Edit: And I'm not really sure what your response had to do with the quote you used. That merchant is chiefly concerned with making money. He believes that Bhelen's progressive tendencies will cause him to loosen trade restrictions with the Surface so he can make more money. THAT'S why he's supporting Bhelen and he's hardly going to lie about that.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 19 août 2010 - 10:16 .

[beggargirl]

The only casteless I cared about when I played were my mom, Leske, and Rica. I chose Harrowmont based on what I thought was best for the dwarves. The only reason I hesitated was that I thought it wouldn't be best for Rica. I never even considered that some sort of castless reform might happen if I picked one or the other. Orzammar had castless dwarves for as long as it's history seems to go back into what seems like fairy tale. I just wanted the least assholish candidate.

[Sarah1281]

I really don't understand your RP mentality. You don't care for your fellow casteless but you care about the caste dwarves who think you are an abomination that shouldn't have been born but since you were you should have died young? Odd.



Just because a candidate is popular with the people doesn't mean that they're a good ruler. Alistair is popular with the people no matter what but unhardened he is a terrible ruler who won't even stay in court and leaves his chancellor to do all his ruling for him. Endrin MAY have wanted Harrowmont to be King but there is no proof either way and his reasons for that are unclear. I'm inclined to think that he couldn't take his son's progressive tendencies on top of the fratricide (which he was willing to go along with for nearly a year).



It's clear that Orzammar is killing itself from the inside. They are having a population crisis that allows the nobles to overlook people like Rica's casteless status as they need babies because they can barely field enough soldiers to fight the darkspawn...and yet they throw away all of the casteless. Only warriors and nobles are allowed to fight the darkspawn and it is a losing battle. Casteless can't even carry arms. That is their tradition and part of why they're losing so badly. They haven't regained any land for generations and the dwarves and darkspawn used to have a sort of tug of war with the the land that lay outside of Orzammar.



Harrowmont tells you outright he has no intention of being a strong king but rather a 'just and kind' one. That's great but this is ORZAMMAR. The Assembly can't get anything done (the three week succession dispute before you show up should be proof of that) and Harrowmont wants to serve as a figurehead letting the Assembly make the decisions. It's not even that he CAN'T control the Assembly, he just thinks that the Assembly deciding everything is the desired outcome. In his quest, you have to talk his own men into fighting for him and when you first meet him, all of his supporters run away.



Bhelen, on the other hand, has shown plenty of strength. Getting his brother exiled without a trial, while immoral, shows he has strong backing. His supporters attakcing instead of fleeing shows his strength. The fact that his quest attacks his opponents support instead of defending his own shows his strength. Given that the Assembly is too full of self-interest to ever accomplish anything (the Paragon Aeducan, who you can read about in the Diamond Quarter, became a Paragon by ignoring the Assembly that was bickering and not deciding anything when the darkspawn were marching on the city during the first Blight and saving it by himself), a strong King is needed to get things done.



As the Surface dwarves trapped outside the city will tell you, Orzammar can't stay isolated much longer or they'll starve. Orzammar cannot sustain itself and needs to rely on the Surface. Harrowmont wants isolation. Bhelen seeks to expand trade which can only be a good thing. So what if he's morally not a good person? A good person does not necessarily make a bad King and a bad person doesn't have to be a bad King. Also, given it's Orzammar and the nobles are pretty much all ****s, being the nice guy is not going to help. At all. You'll be completely outmatched by all the dirty politics going on everywhere around you.



You may have succeeded in getting the 'nice' candidate but you've changed nothing. Orzammar's going to just keep bickering and hopefully someone else who is ruthless enough to save Orzammar will show up.

[beggargirl]

You realize this discussion started when I mentioned that I found it hard to believe that so many people chose Behlen on their first run through without having prior knowledge of how it would turn out. I was pointing out what my DC saw on their playthrough that led her to choose Harrowmont despite her sister being in Behlens care.



Honestly, I've heard from many people that they chose Harrowmont their first time through. The only difference with the DC is that you think "Crap, I want to pick Harrowmont but what about my family!?"



"Harrowmont wants isolation. Bhelen seeks to expand trade which can only be a good thing"

I did not see this spelled out in game when I played. What clues when you go through Orzammar before you chose gives you this distinct impression?

[beggargirl]

Who here on their very first run put Behlen on the throne. If you did, did you do so because you knew ahead of time that he was the better candidate?

[Giggles_Manically]

Talk to the merchants, they say "Bhelen wants more trade, and cracks in the old way"



Others will say that Bhelen really cares for Rica, and reading the note in the palace shows that Rica is shocked about being treated so nicely. Indicating a tolerance of casteless greater than others.



While it does require some investigation if you talk to everyone you can before deciding it is appearent that Bhelen was a better choice for progress.

[Sarah1281]

No, this actually started when someone else said that they thought that Harrowmont was going to be a huge reformer and save the casteless while Bhelen was going to keep everything exactly the same.



On my first playthrough, unspoiled in that, I chose Bhelen. I wasn't really thinking about the Surface trade issues or Bhelen getting more done but I knew he was less traditional and that the dwarven casteless tradition sucked so I reluctantly went with him. On my subsequent playthroughs, I've only seen more evidence that Bhelen is what's best for Orzammar.

[MKDAWUSS]

Just look at it like this: Harrowmont's John McCain and Bhelen's Barack Obama.





/ducks for cover

[RavenousBear]

Nug-spew!

[Dean_the_Young]

I went with Bhelen in my first playthrough. As a human noble, I recognized that regardless of who was better for Ozamaar, Bhelen was better for those on the surface. More surface trade benefits Ferelden, as well as the nice benefit of helping all the surface dwarves and Orzamaar.



I wouldn't have put a gamble on the eventual outcome, but I also picked up Bhelen as the likely reformer in regards to the casteless.

[phaonica]

Maybe I'm not observant enough, but how does one determine that Bhelen is better for the surfacers or the casteless in a non-dwarf playthrough? From town gossip and whatnot?

[RavenousBear]

The Criers in the Diamond Quarter shout out their biased views on the candidate they endorse which sway players to side with Bhelen. I do not think I hear anything about Harrowmont restricting trade in-game, but Legnar the merchant near Brother Burkel mentions Bhelen will increase trade with the surface if chosen as King.

[soignee]

phaonica wrote...

Maybe I'm not observant enough, but how does one determine that Bhelen is better for the surfacers or the casteless in a non-dwarf playthrough? From town gossip and whatnot?

the vendor opposite Tapsters who sells companion gifts. Arrogant son of a  nug ("I'll take your money, that's all you're good for") but he speaks of trade issues with you.

[Eudaemonium]

I think the clincher for a lot of my characters are when they run through teh diamond quarter and hear *both* criers talking about 'Bhelen's impending marriage to a casteless' [i.e. Rica], except one is doing it to show his progressive views and the other to show his eschewing of tradition and lack of moral standing.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

I guess I didn't talk with the merchants enough because I don't recall too much "trade vs. isolationism" stuff on my mental evidence list when I was trying to make my decision. I was mostly concerned with the social/caste issues. Although, even if it is true that Harrowmont was an isolationist (which I agree is not a forward-thinking idea for a struggling society), my DC Warden sort of counteracted that by asking Queen Anora to open things up on her end and send some of her people down to the Deep Roads. I'm pretty sure my Epilogue said something about increased communications and traffic between Orzammar and the surface. Now I'm tempted to load up my last game and check.

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 19 août 2010 - 11:58 .

[Sarah1281]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

I guess I didn't talk with the merchants enough because I don't recall too much "trade vs. isolationism" stuff on my mental evidence list when I was trying to make my decision. I was mostly concerned with the social/caste issues. Although, even if it is true that Harrowmont was an isolationist (which I agree is not a forward-thinking idea for a struggling society), my DC Warden sort of counteracted that by asking Queen Anora to open things up on her end and send some of her people down to the Deep Roads. I'm pretty sure my Epilogue said something about increased communications and traffic between Orzammar and the surface. Now I'm tempted to load up my last game and check.

I'm afraid that was a wasted boon. Harrowmont won't let them in and all they can offer is medical supplies. Under Bhelen, they take back many thaigs.

[Corker]

beggargirl wrote...

Who here on their very first run put Behlen on the throne. If you did, did you do so because you knew ahead of time that he was the better candidate?

I did, and no.  f!Cousland was all about Harrowmont, even though my husband was leaning over my shoulder, telling me how much better Bhelen would be in the epilogue.  "I'm RPing," I said.  "Go 'way."

It was the outcast smith woman and her poor baby in Dust Town who changed her mind.  (On a meta-level, this miiiiight have something to do with my being about 2 months post-partum when I played...)  "Dwarven traditions" tossed those two out of their home into a slum.  When Cousland got back with Caridin's crown, Bhelen was fulminating about how she was a tool of Harrowmont, not to be trusted, etc., and truth be told, her royalist instincts were kicking back in and she wanted to support the 'legitimate' successor... until Harrowmont up and said something about how he'd be preserving dwarven traditions and culture.

Bang, Bhelen gets the crown.

It was an emotional decision, not a rational one, but it ended up working out all right.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Sarah1281 wrote...

 I'm afraid that was a wasted boon. Harrowmont won't let them in and all they can offer is medical supplies. Under Bhelen, they take back many thaigs.

So but then why would I be voted a Paragon if all I sent them was some medical supplies in the hands of unwelcome soldiers? And, how do you know that? I'm not questioning you, I'm just trying to find out what I missed. Do they tell you in Awakenings? Was it in the Epilogue screenshot text and I just didn't read it? I finished my game at something like 2:00 am and was somewhat distracted from having achieved the "Warden Commander" ending against all my most fervent hopes and efforts, but did I really miss that much?

[RavenousBear]

beggargirl wrote...

Who here on their very first run put Behlen on the throne. If you did, did you do so because you knew ahead of time that he was the better candidate?

I did since my first character was a DC. I had no clue which candidate would turn out for the best in the epilogue but I went with Bhelen just because I only cared about my family and could care less about the nobles and their games.

Though I did feel bad when Harrowmont was sentenced to death, however I assumed Harrowmont would do the same to Bhelen until I found Dragon Age Wiki. Would have been epic as a Castless to kill the last son of the former King, but family came first.

Modifié par Caak7i, 20 août 2010 - 12:13 .

[Sarah1281]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

 I'm afraid that was a wasted boon. Harrowmont won't let them in and all they can offer is medical supplies. Under Bhelen, they take back many thaigs.

So but then why would I be voted a Paragon if all I sent them was some medical supplies in the hands of unwelcome soldiers? And, how do you know that? I'm not questioning you, I'm just trying to find out what I missed. Do they tell you in Awakenings? Was it in the Epilogue screenshot text and I just didn't read it? I finished my game at something like 2:00 am and was somewhat distracted from having achieved the "Warden Commander" ending against all my most fervent hopes and efforts, but did I really miss that much?

 From what I can tell, it's an epilogue slide that sometimes gets bugged, much like the Teagan marriage ones.

You get named a Paragon for ending the Blight no matter what boon you pick or if you ask for nothing.

[Thrubeingcool13]

beggargirl wrote...

Who here on their very first run put Behlen on the throne. If you did, did you do so because you knew ahead of time that he was the better candidate?

I picked him but didn't know beforehand that he was the better candidate. I actually started doing the quests for Harrowmont, but realized I didn't like him, and luckily there was the option to switch sides. The choice between the two candidates is very much conservative versus liberal, and I tend to be more liberal thinking which is what drew me to Bhelen.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

Picked Harrowmont the first run, though I can't claim too much in the way of randomness. I had played every origin well before completing a game and Bhalen's betrayal locked him from consideration in my mind, despite it being a Dalish who finished first. Next run was my casteless and she supported Bhalen solely due to family ties. She wasn't too sure about him, but figured if Rica trusted him he couldn't be that bad.