3015 réponses à ce sujet

[saruman85]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
What treaty?

Think he means treaty quest.

Don'tcha mein Herr?

EDIT: Ooh, ToP. I know we don't usually obey ToP rules on this thread, but here's some filler anyway:



Duran is a little...unused to surfacer dress codes.

"Must...keep...eyes...on...face..."

Gorim: *snigger*

Modifié par saruman85, 11 octobre 2010 - 03:31 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ah that. Well if nobles don't bother going to the Shaperate to check documents and papers themselves, tact seems to be unnecessary.

[Wulfram]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dishonest / ambitious = good politician.
It's kind of hard to miss how Orzammar's politics are if this is the official wallpaper for the Dwarf Noble Origin:

Yet Harrowmont was a successful politician prior to becoming King.  That's why he's a candidate.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dishonest / ambitious = good politician.
It's kind of hard to miss how Orzammar's politics are if this is the official wallpaper for the Dwarf Noble Origin:

Yet Harrowmont was a successful politician prior to becoming King.  That's why he's a candidate.

Simply because he was close to the king.

Sure, he was a somewhat succesful politician. Not nearly as good as Bhelen and not qualified to be king.

[saruman85]

Wulfram wrote...
Yet Harrowmont was a successful politician prior to becoming King.  That's why he's a candidate.

True. It takes some guile to be chief advisor to an Aeducan king. And he was author of many compromises within the Assembly.

I guess there's a difference between what it takes to be a top advisor and to be king, though.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Sure, he was a somewhat succesful politician. Not nearly as good as Bhelen and not qualified to be king.

Not as good as Bhelen, perhaps. But I think he was just as qualified as anyone else.

Like I said, though, just because you have what it takes to be a top advisor doesn't mean you have what it takes to be King.

[KnightofPhoenix]

We don't know how he became advisor. For all you know, he could have been a childhood friend of Endrin and that's how he got his position. Many advisors got their position only because of this.

And the "compromise" thing worried me as much as his incompetence. Compromise is sometimes a necessity, but to build your entire policy on compromise in order to appease as many Deshyrs as possible, whom we have seen are not that reasonable? Yea, I'd rather have someone who will act as king and not as a moderator.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 octobre 2010 - 03:44 .

[saruman85]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
We don't know how he became advisor. For all you know, he could have been a childhood friend of Endrin and that's how he got his position. Many advisors got their position only because of this.

Or he could've earned his position because he was trustworthy, loyal, and obedient. If it was Endrin's job to rule and keep the deshyrs in line, it could have been Harrowmont's to execute Endrin's orders to the letter and bring him good intel from the front lines. In which case, Harrowmont would have been perfect at his job.

There's nothing in the game to say that Harrowmont WASN'T an excellent advisor to Endrin. Like I said, there's a difference at being King and being an advisor, and whilst Harrowmont may have sucked at being king, he was a great advisor. Some people are just better at being followers than leaders, and I suspect Harrowmont himself knew this, saying as he does that he never wanted the throne.

And the "compromise" thing worried me as much as his incompetence. Compromise is sometimes a necessity, but to build your entire policy on compromise in order to appease as many Deshyrs as possible, whom we have seen are not that reasonable? Yea, I'd rather have someone who will act as king and not as a moderator.

That's true enough. So would I. Compromise may be good for an ordinary politician, or even a close advisor to the King, but not the King himself.

You know, I've often wondered - what exactly is the role of Orzammar's ruler? Are they merely a sort of 'chief deshyr' whose job it is to convene the Assembly and propose laws etc? Or do their votes count more than that of your average deshyr, and do they have absolute power in anything?

[KnightofPhoenix]

saruman85 wrote...
You know, I've often wondered - what exactly is the role of Orzammar's ruler? Are they merely a sort of 'chief deshyr' whose job it is to convene the Assembly and propose laws etc? Or do their votes count more than that of your average deshyr, and do they have absolute power in anything?

"Although the king technically rules Orzammar, kings are elected by the Assembly, and so each king must work constantly to maintain the support of the deshyrs. Kings who prove unpopular find their heirs deemed unacceptable to inherit the throne. Power then passes to another house."


But I think it ends up depending on each individual king. And as this suggests, an unpolular king did not get ousted, but his succesors were refused.
Endrin did not seem to me to be as much of a compromisor as Harrowmont as king. Endrin was certainly not a great king imo, but he managed to earn the throne via mysterious means, kept his power and managed to not make things worse.
But I think it's clear that they do not have absolute power, unless they are also Paragons. In which case their word is law. The way I understand it, it's only the king that can propose laws and decrees, and the Assembly votes for it. I do not know if the king has a veto, but if he is the only one who can propose laws, then he doesn't nmeed one, he could simply not propose any law he dislikes.  

Bhelen is definitely going against tradition and while the Assembly has been disolved in the past, it was still something uncommon. So I would think that Harrowmont fits the more traditional conception of what a king in Orzammar is supposed to be. Which is of course not what Orzammar needs.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 octobre 2010 - 04:10 .

[Sarah1281]

So I never actually tell Branka who I'm supporting (because initially she doesn't even promise support so why bother giving a name and afterwards she tells you she doesn't care) but I just found this in the toolset and it amused me:

PC: Yes. His heir, Bhelen, seeks your support to become king.
Branka: Hmm. Bhelen, is it? Twisted cretin, the last I heard. Not surprising he's done so well for himself. (disdainful)

PC: Yes. His chosen successor, Harrowmont, seeks your support.
Branka: Hmm. Harrowmont, is it? Insufferable blowhard who's never had one memorable moment in his tradition-bound life. (disdianful)

I am impressed that, given that she left a full year before Bhelen became legally an only child, Branka had Bhelen's number.

Edit: She also says that Endrin was as competent a king as Orzammar could expect.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 11 octobre 2010 - 11:31 .

[gnomon7]

Branka has many damning qualities, but stupidity was never one of them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Well expect Bhelen is much better than Endrin. But Endrin is apparently respected and he did one good thing at least, try to reestablish contact with Kal-Shirok. But Bhelen surpasses him.

Branka's rudeness is only matched by her intelligence, so it doesn't surprise me to see that she knew about Orzammar's political situation even if she didn't give a damn.

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well expect Bhelen is much better than Endrin. But Endrin is apparently respected and he did one good thing at least, try to reestablish contact with Kal-Shirok. But Bhelen surpasses him.
Branka's rudeness is only matched by her intelligence, so it doesn't surprise me to see that she knew about Orzammar's political situation even if she didn't give a damn.

Well, she never says anything about Endrin being superior to Bhelen. Her actual quote is this:

Branka: Ah, so an important errand boy, then. I suppose something serious has happened. Is Endrin dead? That seems most likely. He was on the old and wheezy side. (VO: Indifferent. Doesn't care that her words might hurt someone.)
PC: Show respect! You speak of my father!
Branka: And not saying anything untrue. But if he's dead, I'm sorry. He was as competent a king as we could expect. (VO: Half-hearted apology. She really doesn't care.)

Although she also has this to say about the two candidates:

Branka: The Anvil of the Void. The means by which the ancients forged their army of golems and held off the first archdemon ever to rise. It's here. So close I can taste it. (VO: Passionate, orating.)
PC: Harrowmont would work to restore Orzammar's glory.
Branka: Harrowmont could have been pulled dead from his mother's womb and history would read no differently. (VO: disdainful.)

or

PC: Bhelen would change things. Move Orzammar forward.
Branka: A thousand Bhelens could die and history wouldn't notice. (VO: disdainful.)

Notably, she is again harsher on Harrowmont. I think she's secretly a Bhelen fan.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Isn't her saying that Endrin is as competent as we could expect imply that she isn't expecting anyone to be better than him?

And everyone is secretly a Bhelen fan. They just don't know it yet.

[Sarah1281]

Hm. This line follows the revelation that you're the DN and also the first time you get the chance to declare who your candidate is. If you choose the 'Show some respect!' line then she's under the impression that you're attempting to get the throne for yourself and, unless you pick the 'Bhelen would use the Anvil to...' line later she never even knows he's involved.

[saruman85]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Branka's rudeness is only matched by
her intelligence, so it doesn't surprise me to see that she knew about
Orzammar's political situation even if she didn't give a damn.

I agree. She's like Dr House - she's intelligent, but she's also a misanthrope. She knows everyone, but she also hates everyone equally

Sarah1281 wrote...
If you choose the 'Show some respect!' line then she's under the impression that you're attempting to get the throne for yourself and, unless you pick the 'Bhelen would use the Anvil to...' line later she never even knows he's involved.

A lot of what Branka says confused me at first. Does anyone know if the DN taking the throne for themselves was part of the original game early on? 'Cos after you side with her and before she makes you a crown she asks you tantalisingly "...or have you set your sights higher?" I always wondered what she meant by that.

I think someone suggested on the old 'It's Good To Be The King' DN Expansion thread that DNs becoming King/Queen was part of the original plan, just as HNs get to become King/Queen.

[soignee]

gnomon7 wrote...

Branka has many damning qualities, but stupidity was never one of them.

I agree, but her end doesn't justify the means. I look at Laryn-as-broodmother, I listen to what Hespith says...

...and I think LOLno that crazy doesn't get power.

[Sarah1281]

A lot of what Branka says confused me at first. Does anyone know if the DN taking the throne for themselves was part of the original game early on? 'Cos after you side with her and before she makes you a crown she asks you tantalisingly "...or have you set your sights higher?" I always wondered what she meant by that.

I think she's just making assumptions here. I mean, if you were finally found after two years deep within the Deep Roads by the prince/princess of Orzammar (remember, Branka left before your exile so she doesn't know about that) and they tell you that the Assembly can't decide on a successor and so they need your vote (and they don't mention that they support Bhelen or Harrowmont) then what would you think? The most obvious answer is that they're trying to become king/queen.



I took the 'or have you set your sights higher' to mean she's talking about the Anvil. She's very dismissive of the throne and thinks the new king/queen is meaningless. What's important to her is the Anvil. She's asking if you want a meaningless throne...OR are you interested in the Anvil which could save Orzammar like she is.

[saruman85]

soignee wrote...
I agree, but her end doesn't justify the means. I look at Laryn-as-broodmother, I listen to what Hespith says...

...and I think LOLno that crazy doesn't get power.

LOL the funny thing is, Branka never really desired power - I think even had she not become a Paragon, she'd still have found a way to get an expedition out there into the Deep Roads.

But yeah, Laryn and Hespith (and Oghren, for that matter) - sometimes the end doesn't justify the means.

[RavenousBear]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I took the 'or have you set your sights higher' to mean she's talking about the Anvil. She's very dismissive of the throne and thinks the new king/queen is meaningless. What's important to her is the Anvil. She's asking if you want a meaningless throne...OR are you interested in the Anvil which could save Orzammar like she is.

Being apolitical to Orzammar's current situation where nobles are at each other's throats literally, she sees the Anvil as the only solution to eradicate the darkspawn from the deep roads. If I was a dwarf not from the noble caste, I would be apathetic to Orzammar's politics as well.

However, I disagree that the Anvil by itself would "save" Orzammar. Golems have fought and lost to the darkspawn in battles in the Deep Roads. And her means to retrieving it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

saruman85 wrote...
But yeah, Laryn and Hespith (and Oghren, for that matter) - sometimes the end doesn't justify the means.

My main problem with Branka is not what she did, as horrific as it was. My main problem with her is that she doesn't realise what she did. As you are fighting the darkspawn, she says with complete apathy that her house was hers to use as she saw fit. She displayed absolutely no sadness over what she had done. I am not even expecting regret, I am expecting her to understand what she did and she doesn't. Loghain for instance knew exactly what he was doing, how hard his choices were and he displayed no joy over it. Branka didn't and that was my main problem with her.
 
Had Branka displayed awareness over what she had done, and displayed sadness at a percieved hard but necessary choice, I would not have viewed her as badly. And in that case, the ends would have justified the means, imo. 

In any case, I preserved the anvil anyways. With a half arsed built army, having golems in there would be very helpful.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 octobre 2010 - 11:07 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I was tempted to give Branka the Anvil and then went...



Oh wait I would be turning a very powerful weapon over to a crazy woman.

So I didnt.



Besides I doubt that Bhelen will need it really (for those of who crowned him) he has casteless reinforcing the army now, and if he is smart enough Mages through Dagna to use as well.



Because that seems like a good trade, Orzamar is open to apostates as long as they are willing to fight darkspawn, thats what I would do.

[Costin_Razvan]

Yeah...even the most ruthless Generals of our time have always cared for their troops in one way or another. Alexander the Great massacred an entire city because he lost 500 men in the siege to take it for example.

Though personally I have always preserved the Anvil save for my Dalish Elf character ( just to give some variety in my major choices ).

Speaking about Orzammar Apostates...it reminds me of the old discussion we had about creating an alliance between Fereldan and Orzammar, and that you believed ( speaking to Knight here ), that Bhelen would never wage war against Orlais because he would not want to lose his lyrium trade.

How does that work however when Bhelen is perfectly willing to risk an Exalted March against Orzammar ( one that does not happen true, but it could have happened and he does nothing to appease the Chantry ) over some mages? 

Now I know this might be up for debate, but I cannot picture Bhelen as a person who would "STFU and comply"

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 12 octobre 2010 - 11:13 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Well rumbling about war/rattling the saber was one way to try and affect people, still is.



However the Chantry has a disadvantage:

If they try to force Orzamar into accepting what it wants, than the trade cuts out for a little while and their Templars start jibbering/crying and there goes there army.



Celene who is in charge is most likely smart enough to not get dragged into an exalted march.

However an unhardened Alistair might side with the chantry here.



Overall though I doubt the chantry would care about some apostates in Orzamar, since there seems to be bigger things going on in DA2 at least.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Speaking about Orzammar Apostates...it reminds me of the old discussion we had about creating an alliance between Fereldan and Orzammar, and that you believed ( speaking to Knight here ), that Bhelen would never wage war against Orlais because he would not want to lose his lyrium trade.

How does that work however when Bhelen is perfectly willing to risk an Exalted March against Orzammar ( one that does not happen true, but it could have happened and he does nothing to appease the Chantry ) over some mages? 

Now I know this might be up for debate, but I cannot picture Bhelen as a person who would "STFU and comply"

This choice, just like giving the circle independence, are both half arsed attempts by the devs to make it look like you can make a difference. They were very meeh choices.

But this is a different situation. Bhelen is not actively waging war against an Andrastian nation. He might be bending Chantry laws but he knows that the Chantry needs him and his city. They might consider an exalted march, but it won't happen. They can't realistically expect to invade their only source of Lyrium that they cannot harness without the dwarves unless they were forced to.

The way I see it, Bhelen would be perfectly willing to throw the mages out if Orlais and the Chantry gave him a better deal. Or might realise that the mages are too valuable a ressource and  would just use that as leverage and use his lyrium ressource as a deterrent. But it's extremily different from Bhelen invading Orlais. One situation has him being risky, the other has him being a complete idiot.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 octobre 2010 - 11:32 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Dwarves are great in combat, but against well trained heavy knights, charging them?

Things may get a little messy.



Since there is no blight I doubt that no Dwarves even know anything that goes on out there. Its hard enough to get dwarves to go fight a blight on the surface, but getting them to fight a surface war?

Not much chance of that.