79 réponses à ce sujet

[Michel1986]

Don Moar wrote...

we decided to spend the development budget that could have gone into providing tools on making the best game experience possible instead.


Don M

Best game experience possible ? where is the N7 Armor from Mass Effect 1 ???? alot of people want to use it + the helmet from the prologue

PS: You can also give the codes for it so we can use it (hmm_bioG)

[Spartas Husky]

Don Moar wrote...

Sorry about my sarcasm failure, Spartas.

Let me explain. Given that we've made modifications to UnrealEd, created a bunch of other tools, and have dedicated links in everything to systems like client/server databases and version control systems, getting all of that into a nice package that would allow the customer to create his or her own adventures would be a daunting technical challenge. In addition, we would have to look at what we could charge for it given the months of work it would take and how many people we think would actually buy it given that it would probably be a year or more since ME2 shipped by that point. Finally, we'd have to consider the impact on our existing DLC and ME3 plans.

This is not something we can just whip together and I think I can safely say that as cool an idea as it is, we probably won't do this.


Don M

[Edit: edited last sentence a little bit.]

Oh, got it man/gal. The modifications created a whole bunch of branches, and is hard to bring em all into a nice bundle.

Kool... just as long as you dont do another "garrus armor" "oversight" bundle.... then I am fine

PS:....the garrus armor was regarding, Garrus armor, both being all holy.

[MadCat221]

Michel1986 wrote...

Don Moar wrote...

we decided to spend the development budget that could have gone into providing tools on making the best game experience possible instead.


Don M

Best game experience possible ? where is the N7 Armor from Mass Effect 1 ???? alot of people want to use it + the helmet from the prologue

PS: You can also give the codes for it so we can use it (hmm_bioG)

If you're on PC, there is a way to do it if you alter a file called "Coalesced.ini".  You'll need Notepad++ (those two pluses aren't typos), and a special program that fixes a file size stamp that will otherwise cause ME2 to not load.  I can send you the altered INI lines and a link to the coalesced fixer if you want via PM if you're up to it.

[Kroesis-]

Michel1986 wrote...

Best game experience possible ? where is the N7 Armor from Mass Effect 1 ???? alot of people want to use it + the helmet from the prologue

PS: You can also give the codes for it so we can use it (hmm_bioG)

Should be given to us as the last free DLC, unless it's given alongside something else, imo. Mind you, the latest N7 armour is far superior to the old.. again imo.

[Michel1986]

MadCat221 wrote...

Michel1986 wrote...

Don Moar wrote...

we decided to spend the development budget that could have gone into providing tools on making the best game experience possible instead.


Don M

Best game experience possible ? where is the N7 Armor from Mass Effect 1 ???? alot of people want to use it + the helmet from the prologue

PS: You can also give the codes for it so we can use it (hmm_bioG)

If you're on PC, there is a way to do it if you alter a file called "Coalesced.ini".  You'll need Notepad++ (those two pluses aren't typos), and a special program that fixes a file size stamp that will otherwise cause ME2 to not load.  I can send you the altered INI lines and a link to the coalesced fixer if you want via PM if you're up to it.

I know what tools to use....i also know how to use the armor but i cant get that helmet to work.

[bjdbwea]

Don Moar wrote...

Hey,

Given BioWare's history with games like Neverwinter Nights and, more recently, Dragon Age: Origins, we understand the value of providing tools to the community. However, each game project makes its own decisions regarding community support. For example, the Baldur's Gate series, MDK2, SW:KotOR, and JE didn't ship with tools. In the case of the ME series, we decided to spend the development budget that could have gone into providing tools on making the best game experience possible instead.

Don M

Correct, but that is only part of the truth. BG, KotoR and JE all had a so called "Override" folder, which means every file put into there would be used by the game instead of the original files. And indeed, the community developed good tools to mod those games well enough. In the case of the ME series, at least changing textures would be easy with an "Override" folder, maybe even models. No need to provide an official toolset. But as it is, it's almost as if modding was made deliberately difficult, which of course doesn't seem all that far-fetched given the amount of DLC BioWare/EA want to sell.

[MadCat221]

Michel1986 wrote...

MadCat221 wrote...

Michel1986 wrote...

Best game experience possible ? where is the N7 Armor from Mass Effect 1 ???? alot of people want to use it + the helmet from the prologue

PS: You can also give the codes for it so we can use it (hmm_bioG)

If you're on PC, there is a way to do it if you alter a file called "Coalesced.ini".  You'll need Notepad++ (those two pluses aren't typos), and a special program that fixes a file size stamp that will otherwise cause ME2 to not load.  I can send you the altered INI lines and a link to the coalesced fixer if you want via PM if you're up to it.

I know what tools to use....i also know how to use the armor but i cant get that helmet to work.

Ah, okay.

The default N7 Armor helmet is enough for me with the old Onyx N7 armors.  Just color it dark gray with red highlights, and presto.  No back-of-head hose, but personally that just screamed "Grab here to asphyxiate" during hostile environment hand-to-hand...

Plus, the N7 helmet properly hides hair instead of having it clip through like it does on some FemShep hairdos.

bjdbwea wrote...

Don Moar wrote...

Hey,

Given
BioWare's history with games like Neverwinter Nights and, more
recently, Dragon Age: Origins, we understand the value of providing
tools to the community. However, each game project makes its own
decisions regarding community support. For example, the Baldur's Gate
series, MDK2, SW:KotOR, and JE didn't ship with tools. In the case
of the ME series, we decided to spend the development budget that could
have gone into providing tools on making the best game experience
possible instead.

Don M

Correct, but that is only
part of the truth. BG, KotoR and JE all had a so called "Override"
folder, which means every file put into there would be used by the game
instead of the original files. And indeed, the community developed good
tools to mod those games well enough. In the case of the ME series, at
least changing textures would be easy with an "Override" folder, maybe
even models. No need to provide an official toolset. But as it is, it's
almost as if modding was made deliberately difficult, which of course
doesn't seem all that far-fetched given the amount of DLC BioWare/EA
want to sell.

It's bad engine design.  The UE3 appears to bake everything together.  Works great for streamlining, but doesn't account at all for the potential need for patching things.  That's why we were stuck with Muddy Face Garrus in ME1, and why there are more muddy textures in ME2, like the Normandy when she's parked in Illium (and I think Omega and Citadel too).

Modifié par MadCat221, 24 juillet 2010 - 12:15 .

[CatatonicMan]

Mod tools are generally only doable if you intended them to be and/or programmed with them in mind from the start. Trying to hack them in after the fact isn't going to go over well.

[bjdbwea]

MadCat221 wrote...

It's bad engine design. The UE3 appears to bake everything together. Works great for streamlining, but doesn't account at all for the potential need for patching things. That's why we were stuck with Muddy Face Garrus in ME1, and why there are more muddy textures in ME2, like the Normandy when she's parked in Illium (and I think Omega and Citadel too).

Certainly. But if a tool (Texmod) can do it - at the cost of some performance - of course the same could be implemented directly into the game. Of course you could ask "why bother, who really needs some new textures anyway?" But the answer is, apparently many. Why else would BioWare/EA want to sell it?

[Don Moar]

bjdbwea,



The override folder was created for the benefit of the development team. The fact that it allowed customers to mod those other games was a coincidence. The fact that it was not removed demonstrates that we did not want to spend time either supporting or disabling that ability.



In the case of ME, the Unreal Engine 3 does not support an override folder and we did not want to spend the time modifying the engine to support anything that wasn't required to produce the game.





Don M

[Water Dumple]

Mods provide a company with a dedicated fanbase, improving everyone's experience; hell, it's even a way to cover for mistakes. If there's an imbalance problem, a mod can fix it. If people want to add new items, models, textures, etc to the game, they can. Note that Valve has been doing this for years, and has literally thousands of mods bouncing around for Counter Strike: Source, Team Fortress 2, Half-Life 2, Left 4 Dead 2, and others. While these mods aren't earning Valve money directly, they have supplied it with one of the most dedicated PC fanbases around, which continues to keep their games alive even after years of use. This keeps sales coming in for a long time.



So while I don't think mods are necessary for Mass Effect 2, I highly recommend considering building Mass Effect 3 in such a way that it can be modded. The community will appreciate it, the game's popularity will last for much longer, and the fanbase will grow. Too many developers look at mods as a sort of "fame or riches" thing, where they can make fans like them with mod tools or withhold the mods and force DLCs, because it's a lot easier to track the profits from DLCs and expansions. This doesn't mean that the game should be thrown together sloppily putting every extra bit of effort into mod tools, in the hopes that the community will buoy the game and keep it alive; but a few slight design tweaks here and there to make it moddable will go a very long way, and if you need evidence, just look at Valve.

[Don Moar]

Water Dumple

We don't need to look at Valve to see the value of supporting community modding, we did it with Neverwinter Nights back in 2002 and again with Dragon Age in 2009. As I said before, each project is given the freedom to make its own decisions on how it wants to support its community. With the ME franchise, the decision was to focus our development budget on making the best game experience possible. As far as what will happen in this regard for ME3, I can't really comment.


Don M

[Edit - fixed some grammar.)

Modifié par Don Moar, 26 juillet 2010 - 05:09 .

[BlackbirdSR-71C]

Well, I for one am really disappointed at their desicion of not supporting mods. The coalesced.ini seems to be pretty much made for modding, however, you can't change everything in it, nor can you change or add models in game. Also, isn't this game based on Unreal Engine 3? As far as I know the Unreal Engine has always been a really open engine in terms of level making/editing, which would even allow us to make whole new missions (minus voice acting, of course).

[Burdokva]

I'd like to say thanks to Mr.Moar for taking the time to speak back to us. 

Personally, it has bugged me that Mass Effect doesn't have modding tools, even basic ones. I've been a modder for a decade now, and honestly, mods take games to an entire new level. You don't need to trust me, just see ModDB - there are old games that still make sales because of mods. Sadly, I'm pretty sure modding is going to become an oddity most publishers will combat and avoid like the plague, as it makes the DLC concept even more broken then it is (just my opinion, don't take it as an insult).

Don (if you don't mind me using first name for simplicity's sake), with regards to mods affecting DLC you're probably right.

I understand your points, but I'd like to ask if, at the very least, we could get some information about the .pcc files, if not an extractor/compiler? I can't stand the fact that I have to play the entire game with my squad members using the exact same 3d model and texture, which is even more irritating next to Shepard's customizable armor and half a dozen armor sets.

And I won't be paying for a re-texture DLC, and one that is horribly bad value (as EA's DLC policy, yet again, forgets that gaming is a world-wide market with lots of currencies and conversion rates); DLC that actually ads content is one thing, but "altermative appearanc packs" makes me wonder if vanilla wasn't left "bare" on purpose. But I still would like to have some variation, in a role-playing game...

Best regards, and sorry if I sounded harsh.

Modifié par Burdokva, 26 juillet 2010 - 07:18 .

[s0meguy6665]

Don Moar wrote...

Hey,

Given BioWare's history with games like Neverwinter Nights and, more recently, Dragon Age: Origins, we understand the value of providing tools to the community. However, each game project makes its own decisions regarding community support. For example, the Baldur's Gate series, MDK2, SW:KotOR, and JE didn't ship with tools. In the case of the ME series, we decided to spend the development budget that could have gone into providing tools on making the best game experience possible instead.


Don M

With all due respect that's a very weak excuse. All they'd have to do is give us the same tools that the ME dev team used, or just some of them.

I mean, how hard can it be to provide with some tools to be able to extract some data so that we can figure out how to edit it ourselves? the same tools that the dev team has to use?

Modifié par s0meguy6665, 26 juillet 2010 - 05:40 .

[bjdbwea]

Don Moar wrote...

bjdbwea,

The override folder was created for the benefit of the development team. The fact that it allowed customers to mod those other games was a coincidence. The fact that it was not removed demonstrates that we did not want to spend time either supporting or disabling that ability.

In the case of ME, the Unreal Engine 3 does not support an override folder and we did not want to spend the time modifying the engine to support anything that wasn't required to produce the game.

Don M

Fair enough, and thanks for the response. Still, you should consider that mods usually increase the replayability of a game significantly. And in the case of Bethesda, it doesn't seem to have hurt their DLC sales.

Personally, I never felt the need for mods for ME 1, as there was not much that would have needed improvement, but I would really have liked to be able to mod ME 2.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 26 juillet 2010 - 07:09 .

[Don Moar]

Burdokva,



I appreciate what you're asking for but at this point, we have no plans on releasing a .pcc compiler.





s0meguy6665,



Actually, it's a perfectly reasonable explanation.



As I already indicated in an earlier post in this very thread, it's not that simple. We've made modifications to the UnrealEd and created other tools all of which tie into client / server databases (both SQL and version control). So, we could give you the tools as-is and you either, wouldn't be able to use them at all or you'd have to invest in additional hardware / software. Alternatively, we could spend a lot of time and money to remove those dependencies but then we'd have to come up with some replacement data back-end.



----



The way I see it, it's a no-win situation for us on this issue. Either we make some people upset because we didn't give them tools, we make other people upset because we gave them tools optimized for internal development and are difficult (or impossible) to use, or we make still other people upset because we gave them higher-quality tools but our single-player experience was somehow diminished.



I think that people pay for a game and they should get the best game experience possible. In the case of NWN and DA, the tools were part & parcel of the GAME experience we were selling but in ME and the other games that we've made that have shipped without tools it wasn't. As a result, since ME was a game that was focused on this one story about Shepard, we chose not to include modding tools and instead focus all of our energy on making that experience as fantastic as we possibly could.





Don M

[javierabegazo]

Wanted to say thanks to you Don M for spending the time to answer these technical questions. it's been a long time that these have been asked

[Don Moar]

bjdbwea,



Look at my post 4 above yours. Look at my other posts in this thread.



BioWare is very well aware of how providing the customer with tools can help the community with our experience making Neverwinter Nights and Dragon Age: Origins. That's simply not the direction we wanted to go with Mass Effect, and it's not because we thought it would hurt DLC sales it's because it would take time and money that we wanted to spend on making the best game possible.





Don M

[Don Moar]

javierabegazo,



No problem. I remember when I was working on NWN that I thought customers would be expecting equivalent (or probably better) tools with all our future games. I think between NWN, and the fact that some other very popular games have come out since then and built very successful modding communities, that I may have been correct.









Don M

[ManBearPig91]

I understand the cost side of things associated with releasing modding tools, however, when Mass Effect 3 came around would it be possible for you to include some very simple functionality allowing players to add new gear/art to the game?

What I'm saying is that PC gamers have already been doing some armor and clothing modding, editing content, etc but to add anything custom in they generally need to overwrite something (i.e. new armor patterns overwrite old). Some sort of basic support for this would be nice and I doubt, prohibitively expensive.

[Jaron Oberyn]

I just love how people think Mass Effect 1 and 2 would be easily moddable. If you don't work in the industry, take a look at the UDK which is pretty much unrealED for people getting started in it. That will get you a good understanding of the engine. Which is pretty hard to learn. Not to mention, the modifications that Bioware has made to UnrealED specifically tailored for Mass 1 and 2. It took me 6 years to learn to use the Unreal Engine. I hardly doubt that modders are going to spend that amount of time to make quality mods for this game, if they released UED. (Which based on what Mr. Moar said, it won't happen.)



Why aren't you content with the current modding status? With the ini files and the gibbed? That seems like enough to me at least.



-Polite

[bjdbwea]

javierabegazo wrote...

Wanted to say thanks to you Don M for spending the time to answer these technical questions. it's been a long time that these have been asked

I second that. It's very refreshing to see a developer answer some real questions.

Though I will wait and see if DA 2 provides a toolset. If not, then I will suspect that a) someone decided it hurts DLC sales, and/or someone decided that it's not important anymore to "waste" time on providing the community with the tools to increase fun and replayability.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 26 juillet 2010 - 07:16 .

[Loerwyn]

OnlyShallow89 wrote...

Don; I've got a slightly off topic question if that's alright. Why do so many Unreal 3 games look the same? Gears of War, Mass Effect 2, The Scourge Project, Hunted: The Demon's Forge, Alpha Protocol (from what I've seen) - Is there something about the engine that gives it this unified look?

Don, I'm not sure if you're still answering questions, but do you have a brief insight as to mine if possible, please? I don't mean to sound impatient or rude, I'm simply curious.

[Water Dumple]

javierabegazo wrote...

Wanted to say thanks to you Don M for spending the time to answer these technical questions. it's been a long time that these have been asked

Indeed. This is actually the first time I've ever seen forum questions by fans addressed at this rate. Seems to be quite a rarity for staff to pay any attention to fans.