79 réponses à ce sujet

[Burdokva]

At least this thread has brought back some hope that the devs are carefully listening! Thanks!



And please, more than just a single outfit per squad member in vanilla, off the shelf Mass Effect 3...

[javierabegazo]

Water Dumple wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

Wanted to say thanks to you Don M for spending the time to answer these technical questions. it's been a long time that these have been asked

Indeed. This is actually the first time I've ever seen forum questions by fans addressed at this rate. Seems to be quite a rarity for staff to pay any attention to fans.

There's actually an incredible amount of Fan-Dev interaction in the DA2 forums, David Gaider's a rockstar with answering so many questions. None of the devs save Priestly and Woo are paid to spend time on here so it's nice that they go on their own time to do so

[Don Moar]

Hey,



I would like to add that I, personally, love the idea of providing modding tools. I'm reminded of some of the software Maxis used to put out as "toys". Their manuals would say something like "Baseball is a game, a ball is a toy. A ball can be used to play many games." SimCity, SimEarth, SimAnt, all that stuff was great; I loved that concept. I think the modern equivalent is providing tools to allow the customers to manipulate the game, either in terms of content, rules, story, etc.



Not only do tools provide a game with additional longevity, in the case of NWN, it gave us a great tool for helping evaluate potential designers during the interview process.





Don M

[BlackbirdSR-71C]

As it stands now, Mass Effect 3 seems to be at least 2 years from now; now just to clarify, there is no possibility for modding tools to be released in the mean time, either free or maybe with a Mass Effect 2 expansion-of-sorts?

Modifié par BlackbirdSR-71C, 26 juillet 2010 - 07:44 .

[Jaron Oberyn]

ABlackbirdSR-71C -



If you can use the editor in this link flawlessly - http://udk.com/ - then you will probably have the knowledge to mod Mass Effect 2 if, and only if, they release the ME UED. Take a look and see how extensive the program is. Like I said above, it took me 6 years to learn this engine. It's no easy task.



-Polite

[Don Moar]

OnlyShallow89



I didn't mean to ignore your question. First, let me say that I am not a graphics programmer, but I will try to make an educated guess.



In general, games made with the same engine will look similar. This is because the engine will be optimized in a such way that it makes sense for content to be created in a certain fashion. The end result will be that, in the game, the content from different games will look similar.



Now, not all UE3 games look alike. For example, Borderlands uses UE3 but in that case, I believe the developer made significant modifications to the renderer to achieve their desired effect.



Anyway, I hope that answers your question (if not, please start a new thread, perhaps in the off-topic forum) and if anyone more knowledgable than I am about graphics programming sees an error in anything I said there (which wasn't much) please feel free to correct me but let's not derail the thread too much.





Don M

[Jaron Oberyn]

mrsph wrote...

I've seen enough "mods" for Dragon Age to know that people on the internet should never be allowed access to such tools.

Exactly. Not everyone is knowledgeable to use the toolsets, or UED. It takes time and dedication. Lots of dedication.

 -Polite

[Jaron Oberyn]

Don Moar wrote...

OnlyShallow89

I didn't mean to ignore your question. First, let me say that I am not a graphics programmer, but I will try to make an educated guess.

In general, games made with the same engine will look similar. This is because the engine will be optimized in a such way that it makes sense for content to be created in a certain fashion. The end result will be that, in the game, the content from different games will look similar.

Now, not all UE3 games look alike. For example, Borderlands uses UE3 but in that case, I believe the developer made significant modifications to the renderer to achieve their desired effect.

Anyway, I hope that answers your question (if not, please start a new thread, perhaps in the off-topic forum) and if anyone more knowledgable than I am about graphics programming sees an error in anything I said there (which wasn't much) please feel free to correct me but let's not derail the thread too much.


Don M

Do you mind if I ask you what you do in Bioware? Is it graphics programming like you said above, or something else?

 -Polite

[MachDelta]

OnlyShallow89 wrote...

OnlyShallow89 wrote...

Don; I've got a slightly off topic question if that's alright. Why do so many Unreal 3 games look the same? Gears of War, Mass Effect 2, The Scourge Project, Hunted: The Demon's Forge, Alpha Protocol (from what I've seen) - Is there something about the engine that gives it this unified look?

Don, I'm not sure if you're still answering questions, but do you have a brief insight as to mine if possible, please? I don't mean to sound impatient or rude, I'm simply curious.

Certain aspects of all games built on a particular engine will always be the same, causing them to share a certain degree of appearance. Most studios aren't going to take the time to rewrite the lighting arcitecture, or a library of shader effects, or whatever. Hence, many of the basic elements that ship with the engine end up being used on more than one game (whats the point of paying for an engine if you just rewrite the whole thing anyways?), which causes them to look somewhat similar.

And anyways, the Unreal Engine is sexy.

Edit: 2 minutes too slow, oops.

Modifié par MachDelta, 26 juillet 2010 - 08:08 .

[Don Moar]

BlackbirdSR-71C,



I won't say anything is impossible or will never happen. However, at this point I am not aware of any plans for BioWare to release modding tools for ME2.





Don M

[Loerwyn]

Thank you, Don. I appreciate the response I'm aware some games like Borderland break the unified look, I've just felt that quite a few games made in UE3 have the same "feel". I would guess it's as you said, and that explains why The Witcher looks and feels like a BioWare game.

Apologies for the derail! *Goes and hides*

[Don Moar]

PoliteAssasin,



I am one of the lead prograrmmers at BioWare (and I think I said I was NOT a graphics programmer).





Don M

[Jaron Oberyn]

Don Moar wrote...

PoliteAssasin,

I am one of the lead prograrmmers at BioWare (and I think I said I was NOT a graphics programmer).


Don M

Thanks, Sorry or the misunderstanding. 

 -Polite

[s0meguy6665]

Don Moar wrote...

s0meguy6665,

Actually, it's a perfectly reasonable explanation.

As I already indicated in an earlier post in this very thread, it's not that simple. We've made modifications to the UnrealEd and created other tools all of which tie into client / server databases (both SQL and version control). So, we could give you the tools as-is and you either, wouldn't be able to use them at all or you'd have to invest in additional hardware / software. Alternatively, we could spend a lot of time and money to remove those dependencies but then we'd have to come up with some replacement data back-end.

----

The way I see it, it's a no-win situation for us on this issue. Either we make some people upset because we didn't give them tools, we make other people upset because we gave them tools optimized for internal development and are difficult (or impossible) to use, or we make still other people upset because we gave them higher-quality tools but our single-player experience was somehow diminished.

I think that people pay for a game and they should get the best game experience possible. In the case of NWN and DA, the tools were part & parcel of the GAME experience we were selling but in ME and the other games that we've made that have shipped without tools it wasn't. As a result, since ME was a game that was focused on this one story about Shepard, we chose not to include modding tools and instead focus all of our energy on making that experience as fantastic as we possibly could.


Don M

If the tools would be released as they are we'd only have reason to be appreciative for anything that you can give us. Anything more we can edit/change about the game at all and we'd be happier for it, and also the many tens of thousands of other people that would be able to play with said modifications.

In the situation that more hardware or software is needed to use the tools, I think we can decide for ourselves to pay for said products if necessary. Modding requires such investments in many cases anyway, modeling software is just a small example.

Think about all the people you could make happy with this. Sorry if that sounds over the top but we'll gladly take whatever we can get. Hopefully you will make a case with the other ME staff.

Modifié par s0meguy6665, 26 juillet 2010 - 08:38 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Hey there, Don, haven't seen you in a while. Is there any chance you guys could release a (standalone?) Hammerhead tool somewhere in the (near) future? I've been having lots of fun with the vehicle so far and honestly think its potential as far as community creations go could be unlimited. I'm getting all giddy thinking of the possible nightmarish platforming levels or racing tracks that would be possible with the little miracle machine.



And yes, I've been a good boy ever since back then. I swear!

[Don Moar]

sOmeguy6665,



My experience in this industry tells me that given what we've done with NWN and DA : O if we provided the tools as-is we'd get roasted. Unfortunately, I doubt we will be able to prove who's right since, as I have said before, we have no plans to release the tools for ME2. Therefore, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.





Don M

[s0meguy6665]

Don Moar wrote...

sOmeguy6665,

My experience in this industry tells me that given what we've done with NWN and DA : O if we provided the tools as-is we'd get roasted. Unfortunately, I doubt we will be able to prove who's right since, as I have said before, we have no plans to release the tools for ME2. Therefore, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.


Don M

I'm curious about which situation you're referring to, why do you think people will be ungrateful to the point of describing it as being "roasted" if you released some tools as they are, instead of nothing at all? Some people will always be unhappy, but many others will be happy with whatever they can get. There may be no plans, but since you have an important position you can still make a case to some key people to make plans, right?

Modifié par s0meguy6665, 26 juillet 2010 - 09:02 .

[s0meguy6665]

We tried...

[Raxxman]

Cheers for coming on and telling people something they don't want to hear. (That really sounds sarcastic, but it's not)



It's always easy for people to promote the best aspects of the game while quietly ignoring parts that just didn't quite live up to expectation. But to actually acknowledge the issue and explain the reasoning (even though you must of known you were in for a fair bit of flak) is appreciated, even if only by me.

[Don Moar]

s0meguy6665,

There are tons of issues around giving out the tools (even as-is). First, we'd have to figure out what tools are required (this would depend upon what kind of modification we wanted to support). Then, we'd have to look at licensing issues for any third-party software we're using as well as come up with a EULA for our own software. Next, we'd have to figure out how to get it onto a computer without access to our internal update utility. After that, we have to look at how customers can extend the game (we are very restricted in how we can do that) and this may result in having to change existing content. Finally, we'd have to look at whether or not it would be necessary to include source content and if so, licensing issues around that because some content was out-sourced and the use of VO from actors who are members of the Screen Actor's Guild (SAG) is very restricted.

(I'm sure I'm missing stuff.)

At the end of the day, releasing tools (even as-is) is just not that simple and, as you said, there will always be some people who are unhappy with whatever choice we make. For ME, we decided that we weren't going to release modding tools, even as-is.


(Thanks, Raxxman)


Don M

Modifié par Don Moar, 26 juillet 2010 - 11:06 .

[Don Moar]

Kaiser Shepard,



I think a Hammerhead tool falls into the same category as other community modding tools for ME2.





Don M

[Cyberfrog81]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

mrsph wrote...

I've seen enough "mods" for Dragon Age to know that people on the internet should never be allowed access to such tools.

Exactly. Not everyone is knowledgeable to use the toolsets, or UED. It takes time and dedication. Lots of dedication.

 -Polite

That, or we're just a bunch of pervs. Miranda nude is probably one of the first things people would try to achieve. Not to mention the kind of stuff people would do to poor Tali.

This is unfair though. Plenty of people would spend a LOT of their spare time creating excellent, game-enhancing content.


Anyway, good, interesting thread this.

[Water Dumple]

Cyberfrog81 wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

mrsph wrote...

I've seen enough "mods" for Dragon Age to know that people on the internet should never be allowed access to such tools.

Exactly. Not everyone is knowledgeable to use the toolsets, or UED. It takes time and dedication. Lots of dedication.

 -Polite

That, or we're just a bunch of pervs. Miranda nude is probably one of the first things people would try to achieve. Not to mention the kind of stuff people would do to poor Tali.

...You suddenly reminded me in the span of a second why community-made content sometimes deserves a spot on the leash: Idiots produce idiotic content. Fortunately the good mods outnumber the bad, but it is irritating indeed to see extensively-designed tools used for adding pornography to a game. If you let them do whatever they want, there's always that one sad little man in his basement who will abuse the problem. Of course, because that sort of thing is generally outnumbered by productive gameplay-enhancing mods by people who actually care about the game in a positive way, releasing mod tools is a good idea...but dammit if some of the stupid things people produce don't ****** me off sometimes.

[Si-Shen]

k... just gonna touch on the point about modders adding in adult content to games, its their choice, their time, not yours. If you don't approve, like everything in the world, don't use it, if I so choose to use mod A, but you believe its not proper (for whatever reason), why should I not be allowed to use it?

When it comes to modding ANY game, you always have to remember, its the modders personal time and skill, and if he/she chooses to do something that you don't agree with, you don't have the right to say "stop right now!". Much like those that complain on the Beth forums about the lack of male armor, if they want it, they can learn to make it... Or open their eyes and see that there is an equal amount of both. Everyone needs to stop saying what modders should or should not do, and except that we ALL have free will and no modder ever forces you to choose their mods.

Those that will argue that its wrong, even after reading this, are truely ignorant, for they don't really believe in a free world. They believe in a "free world so long as you follow my beliefs". Truely sad when humans continue to try and force other humans to follow their train of thought when its harmless things like mods.



Oh and before someone brings up "a little kid could get it." in the case of games like ME2, DA:O, or Oblivion, all M rated, what kind of irrisponsible parent lets a kid UNDER 17 even play those games without supervision.



ON topic, I am not so upset with the lack of modding for ME2, we have access to MANY games that permit modding, but it is nice to just find some games you can play without. Its not a must have in gaming IMHO; it doesn't suit all game formats as well as some believe.