306 réponses à ce sujet

[paulsmyname]

I think most of it follows from the fact that it is optional.

The removal of romantic option would be considered a loss by some players. Since it is optional, for those who don't care it wouldn't matter either way, since they need not participate in it. So considered, romances ought to be included.

About picking romantic candidates, Again, the limitation of romantic option to one particular sex, race or background would be considered a loss by some players. Since it is optional which character you choose to pursue, it shouldn't matter either way if there are characters that you don't but others do pursue. So, the easiest way is just to have no particular limits.

Modifié par paulsmyname, 24 juillet 2010 - 11:51 .

[AndarianTD]

Pedrak wrote...

As for the fellow fans who say focusing on romances prevents  from concentrating on other aspects of the game and on other content...

Oh, I don't doubt that that's true. David Gaider's concept of zots makes sense. Everything that people want in a game takes time and resources ("zots") to develop, and those "zots" are limited and have to be allocated amongst competing options.

But that's just the point. When you make a game (or do any kind of systems engineering), you have to identify a target audience or user community and come up with a design that's focused on meeting their wants and needs. There are many different kinds of games and players, each providing a particular focus or niche for developers to build for. Some people just game for exploration and monster-killing, while others are interested in a broader and more well-rounded adventuring and RP experience. And those are just two examples.

I can't speak for them, but it seems to me that the "niche" that Bioware's settled into is to try to provide a broad enough spectrum of different gaming elements to attract as many customers of different types as they can -- all within an overall focus on story-based gaming. That means that their games will tend to focus more on a broader RP experienece that includes things like friendship, romance, and more complex plot development, than a typical FPS or H&S title. They do that because there are customers who want and clamor for that broader focus, and because they believe in that kind of game that comes from it -- as opposed to a game where all the zots have been allocated in a narrower focus on things like more monster or treasure hunting quests or more fancy combat feats for the fighter class.

There are plenty of folks on the opposite side of the spectrum from the premise of this thread. Speaking personally, I would MUCH prefer to see DA2 devote more zots to developing extensive romances, realistic and immersive character interactions, and complex plots, as opposed to a dozen extra side-quests or new fighter combat feats. I could easily start a counter-thread titled "Anyone for a lot MORE romances for DA2," which I suspect would get a fair amount of support as well. That's especially the case, I think, because this is a forum for a company that has already established itself with a focus on that kind of gaming. Bioware might decide to do that, but if they do it too much then they'll probably risk starting to alienate the folks who are in sympathy with this thread. I'm sure they have their reasons for striking the kind of balance that they do.

So my general response to threads like this is say: speak your mind about what you like and prefer, but in the end don't begrudge a company for making something that's not exactly suited to your particular preferences. And don't begrudge other customers for not sharing them. Don't chide Coke for not selling Pepsi, or begrudge Coke-drinkers for preferring Coke. In the end if what you really want to insist on is a Pepsi, then go buy a Pepsi.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 24 juillet 2010 - 01:26 .

[joriandrake]

Kordaris wrote...

Yes please, have a possibility to turn off romance in options. It wastes the game time.

... fascinating



People really don't know that simply not initiating romance will solve the "problem" of "wasting time"?

Modifié par joriandrake, 24 juillet 2010 - 02:52 .

[Legbiter]

The Pearl is my wardens first port of call for romance.

[joriandrake]

Kordaris wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

Kordaris wrote...

Yes please, have a possibility to turn off romance in options. It wastes the game time.

... fascinating



People really don't know that simply not initiating romance will solve the "problem" of "wasting time"?

Sometimes it's very difficult to not initiate romance. I Mass Effect 2 I couldn't ask about coffee without somebody jumping on me.

You can always just say NO to avoid misunderstandings and then the romance ends before it even begins

[AndarianTD]

Kordaris wrote...

Yes please, have a possibility to turn off romance in options. It wastes the game time.

I'm actually quite sympathetic to this idea, and did exactly that in my NWN module series, Sanctum of the Archmage. Each character has a toggle that lets the player turn off the romance for that character. With the romance turned off, the games play as though the romance isn't even there, and the player will never even see any of the related dialogue.

[Estelindis]

AndarianTD wrote...
I'm actually quite sympathetic to this idea, and did exactly that in my NWN module series, Sanctum of the Archmage. Each character has a toggle that lets the player turn off the romance for that character. With the romance turned off, the games play as though the romance isn't even there, and the player will never even see any of the related dialogue.

It does have to be said, your Sanctum series has turned a lot of my ideas about romance entirely on their heads.

You choose a key NPC's gender?  Check.
You choose whether to allow gay/bisexual romances?  Check.
You choose whether NPCs will show signs of romantic interest?  Check.

My personal instinct would always have been that these things were integral parts of the NPCs' characters and should not be changeable according to the player's personal whim.  And yet it works.  There are so many other things that make your characters stand out, above and beyond their gender and sexual orientations.  Basically, your module series is the best argument I have ever found for flexible romances, which I would not be inclined towards otherwise.

Modifié par Estelindis, 24 juillet 2010 - 03:17 .

[AndarianTD]

joriandrake wrote...

You can always just say NO to avoid misunderstandings and then the romance ends before it even begins.

Actually, it's not quite as easy as that in DA:O, nor particularly clear how to do it. For example, on my first playthrough I was in a romance with Morrigan, and the romance with Leliana triggered despite my specific and deliberate intention not to trigger it. Apparently all it took to trigger the romance was to be nice to Leliana in one conversation instead of being neutral or deliberately harsh and mean to her. Then, suddenly and without warning, I had party members making comments to me about what was going on between me and Leliana, and Morrigan was torqued to say the least. I had to run back and forth between the two women choosing the "break up with Leliana in favor of Morrigan" dialogue tracks, when I had never chosen to start a romance with Leliana to begin with (much less slept with her). And of course I took a massive influence hit with Leliana in the process.

So as good as the romances in DA:O were and as much new ground as I thought they broke, I am sympathetic to the view of players who found them unavoidably intrusive into the gameplay when they weren't interested in them.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 24 juillet 2010 - 10:42 .

[Indoctrination]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

A controversial opinion among the Bioware fandom, I know. But I kinda feel like the discussions and kvetching about the various options, who should be, who shouldn't be, etc. overwhelm any other discussion.

And what do you think those people will make topics about if romances are removed? They'll be making non-stop topics complaining about how there are no romances, how the game is ruined because of it, how BioWare betrayed them, how their lives are over, etc, etc, etc.

You're replacing one evil with a greater evil. There's no exactly a lot of utility here in your suggestion.

[joriandrake]

AndarianTD wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

You can always just say NO to avoid misunderstandings and then the romance ends before it even begins.

Actually, it's not quite as easy as that in DA:O, nor particularly clear how to do it. For example, on my first playthrough I was in a romance with Morrigan, and the romance with Leliana triggered despite my specific and deliberate intention not to trigger it. Apparently all it took to trigger the romance was to be nice to Leliana in one conversation instead of being deliberately harsh and mean to her. Then, suddenly and without warning, I had party members making comments to me about what was going on between me and Leliana, and Morrigan was torqued to say the least. I had to run back and forth between the two women choosing the "break up with Leliana in favor of Morrigan" dialogue tracks, when I had never chosen to start a romance with Leliana to begin with (much less slept with her). And of course I took a massive influence hit with Leliana in the process.

So as good as the romances in DA:O were and as much new ground as I thought they broke, I am sympathetic to the view of players who found them unavoidably intrusive into the gameplay when they weren't interested in them.

this is the fault of bad programming/writing alone, not the fault of the romance itself, there should just be a plain and simple comment to NPC that "Hey, just in case you misunderstood me, I am not interested in anything else than friendship"

[AndarianTD]

Estelindis wrote...
It does have to be said, your Sanctum series has turned a lot of my ideas about romance entirely on their heads.

You choose a key NPC's gender?  Check.
You choose whether to allow gay/bisexual romances?  Check.
You choose whether NPCs will show signs of romantic interest?  Check.

My personal instinct would always have been that these things were integral parts of the NPCs' characters and should not be changeable according to the player's personal whim.  And yet it works.  There are so many other things that make your characters stand out, above and beyond their gender and sexual orientations.  Basically, your module series is the best argument I have ever found for flexible romances, which I would not be inclined towards otherwise.

Thanks for the kind words, Este! 

I understand your instinct on this, though. It's what I would have thought as well myself, until I tried it and found that I could actually make it work. Some of that has to do with how I designed the personalities of the companions, Robin in particular. Because they're all well fleshed out characters and none of them are gender stereotypes, there are elements of their personalities that work in different roles. I don't think it would be easy to do with just any kinds of characters.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 24 juillet 2010 - 03:40 .

[AndarianTD]

joriandrake wrote...

this is the fault of bad programming/writing alone, not the fault of the romance itself, there should just be a plain and simple comment to NPC that "Hey, just in case you misunderstood me, I am not interested in anything else than friendship"

Agreed.

[M8DMAN]

The game doesn't force you to romance anybody. Its optional, so if you dont want it dont do it!



I find the fact that people are complaining about fictional romances with fictional characters hilarious!

[Estelindis]

Kordaris wrote...

M8DMAN wrote...
The game doesn't force you to romance anybody. Its optional, so if you dont want it dont do it!

Read again. It does actually.

I found it easy to avoid romances with Bioware's various characters when I didn't want to engage with them that way.  There is *always* an option to let them down (gently or otherwise) relatively early in the game.  Sometimes, you don't even have to come out and tell them you're not interested - for instance, when Leliana complimented my Warden's hair, taking the option to affirm the friendship between them instead of choosing the romantic responses meant that the topic never came up again. 

On the flip side, romances have only ever continued beyond the initial inquiry/hint stage when I actively tried to advance the relationship and made the appropriate choices.  Sure: Zevran flirted with my Warden in all playthroughs.  But only in the ones where I was looking for romance with him did it go beyond that.

How much more subtle can game romances get?  Or do some people just miss the initial cues / hints?  (I did read about someone playing a male character apparently having sex with Zevran by accident.  I facepalmed.)

Modifié par Estelindis, 24 juillet 2010 - 04:16 .

[StreetlightEagle]

I liked romances when they were a bit more subtle. Now it's all these bloody forumites want to talk about as if Bioware games are becoming dating sims. The deafening fangasm when Tali was revealed as an LI in Mass Effect 2 has totally put me off romances in games. Don't get me wrong, I like developing relationships with companions but more emphasis should be put on other forms of relationships in DA2. I want to gain a best friend and a rival for starters.

Modifié par StreetlightEagle, 24 juillet 2010 - 06:44 .

[Estelindis]

StreetlightEagle wrote...
Don't get me wrong, I like developing relationships with companions but more emphasis should be put on other forms of relationships in DA2. I want to gain a best friend and a rival for starters.

This.  And, if one chooses friendship instead of romance, one shouldn't be locked out of getting to know the NPC better.  (Dragon Age was fine for this, in my experience; it was more of a problem in Mass Effect.)

[Inquisitor Recon]

I would be fine with no romances. Honestly in-game romances don't do much for me anyway. And yeah the ME2 fanboys can be a bit creepy, but don't deny the same thing exists about certain DA:O characters.

[Melra]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

A controversial opinion among the Bioware fandom, I know. But I kinda feel like the discussions and kvetching about the various options, who should be, who shouldn't be, etc. overwhelm any other discussion. Not completely, it has to be said, but I dread something like the Tali crazies taking hold over the DA fandom. Thank goodness the "love" was evenly distributed among every character of DA:O...

I realize it is too late at this point, but no harm in making our voices heard as well, just to let the devs know that the dating sim aspect of the games are NOT the main selling point for everyone, and that it might have been refreshing to not have romances in this game?

BioWare game with no romances, is no BioWare game of mine. 

[StreetlightEagle]

ReconTeam wrote...

I would be fine with no romances. Honestly in-game romances don't do much for me anyway. And yeah the ME2 fanboys can be a bit creepy, but don't deny the same thing exists about certain DA:O characters.

Yeah, Alistair fangirls in the DA forum are equally as bad as the Tali fanboys... It's just that Alistair, in comparison to Tali, was actually a well written and interesting character (if not a bit too whiny) so I kinda let them off.