I'm playing through for perhaps the 4th time, and would really like to keep my forces well-fed as well as well-armed.
Creating the right situation for population growth is fairly easy (land security --> lots of peasants --> lots of soldiers), and after a while the Keep is bustling with workmen and patroling soldiers. Besides the numerical accounts from Kana, there is obvious visual feedback that I'm rebuilding that Keep as both a community and a structure.
However, even if I recruit Orlen immediately, there is a problem with farmers. The first time talking with him is fine... he'll say that he has people enough and they might even plow more fields. After that, he spends the rest of the game muttering about folks having to tighten their belts. Yes, farmers grumble. But if I can see a couple dozen soldiers and another couple dozen workmen (or more!), why can I not see more than 2 farmers ever? Kana claims that I have lots of peasants... so where are the farmers? Why is Orlen saying that there aren't enough people to work the land?
Crossroad Keep Farmers
Débuté par
hauksdottir
, juil. 23 2010 12:46
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#2
Posté 23 juillet 2010 - 01:25
kamalpoe
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I've isolated Crossroads Keep from the rest of the game and posted it as a generic stronghold module. You can play with it as much as you'd like and see what can happen. 
nwvault.ign.com/View.php
nwvault.ign.com/View.php
#3
Posté 23 juillet 2010 - 08:58
OfficerDonNZ
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I have a nagging feeling that the lack of farmers is one of the things that Obsidion forgot about in the rush to get the game out the door. There's a lot of stuff that got left out or was never finished.
#4
Posté 23 juillet 2010 - 10:48
I_Raps
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I don't think so. Orlen usually tells me there's plenty to go around. And farmers appear in the fields. And cats. Lots of cats.
I think hauksdottir has just run into an imbalance (lots of peasants --> lots of soldiers).
It's like the soldiers grumbling that discipline is too tight. There are some deadends in the decision trees.
I think hauksdottir has just run into an imbalance (lots of peasants --> lots of soldiers).
It's like the soldiers grumbling that discipline is too tight. There are some deadends in the decision trees.
#5
Posté 24 juillet 2010 - 12:34
OfficerDonNZ
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Could be. To tell you the truth Orlen and the farmers is one thing about CK I've never paid that much attation to. I recurit Orlen and that's that.
#6
Posté 24 juillet 2010 - 05:50
hauksdottir
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Yes, there are two cats who are programmed to approach for petting, and it is cheering to be welcomed "home" by them. 
And, the cats are a sign that things in the Keep are improving. This time around, I also noticed the 2 playful cats at Fort Lhast who spend all their time chasing each other among the merchant stalls.
I do NOT recruit (my sergeants have better things to do), I politely turn down Raven's mercenaries, and only accept the very best volunteers. I also send maximum forces on the select missions and 20% to help Neverwinter. That all limits the final greycloak count. Civility, morale, gear, everything is as spiffy as can be gotten. A smaller, exquisitely-trained force will fight better. I am genuinely proud of building a Keep out of rubble and of building an enthusiastic community to fortify it.
The greycloak count is about 3 times the peasant count, which is less percentagewise than the starting condition of 50 soldiers and 10 peasants, IIRC. I'm not doing anything to deliberately increase the soldiers, but ought not lose many to attrition. If the volunteers are a factor of the peasants, there ought to be enough peasants to feed them. Orlen's presence is supposed to increase crop efficiency or some such. Even without him, the number of peasants ought to be adaquate to work the land.
OK, I just loaded a saved game slot from the last run... Keep at 100%: 851 merchants, 2044 peasants, 6081 greycloaks (6031 volunteers added to Nasher's 50). Since 1:5 is adaquate to support the soldiers in the beginning, 1:3 ought to be plenty!
If my forces were empty-bellied, it would affect their morale, but they are quite happy to serve under my command (I get the various rewards and feedback from Kana). Wolf says that there is plenty of food. It is possible that everything is as fine as the numbers indicate.
I might overlook Orlen's complaints about lack of manpower, except that I have never seen more than 2 farmers (one in the front field, one at the side). Being a perfectionist, I want to know where they are. A couple thousand peasants ought to leave a few token farmers working the field. The art exists. There is a designated farmer (identification and script) in Highcliff, who should have been recruitable as well, after the lizzies set up camp in his vegetable patch.
So putting a few instances of him at the Keep, would be using an existing resource. A few pigs could have been added in the distance as well.
I've been given Dragon Age, so this might be my last play-through of NWN2 for quite a while. If it is possible to SEE more happy farmers and satisfy Orlen, I'd like to do it.
@kamalpoe: Thanks for the link to the Keep as a separate module. I might dip into that. Next to crafting, building the Keep is my favorite part of the game.
And, the cats are a sign that things in the Keep are improving. This time around, I also noticed the 2 playful cats at Fort Lhast who spend all their time chasing each other among the merchant stalls.I do NOT recruit (my sergeants have better things to do), I politely turn down Raven's mercenaries, and only accept the very best volunteers. I also send maximum forces on the select missions and 20% to help Neverwinter. That all limits the final greycloak count. Civility, morale, gear, everything is as spiffy as can be gotten. A smaller, exquisitely-trained force will fight better. I am genuinely proud of building a Keep out of rubble and of building an enthusiastic community to fortify it.
The greycloak count is about 3 times the peasant count, which is less percentagewise than the starting condition of 50 soldiers and 10 peasants, IIRC. I'm not doing anything to deliberately increase the soldiers, but ought not lose many to attrition. If the volunteers are a factor of the peasants, there ought to be enough peasants to feed them. Orlen's presence is supposed to increase crop efficiency or some such. Even without him, the number of peasants ought to be adaquate to work the land.
OK, I just loaded a saved game slot from the last run... Keep at 100%: 851 merchants, 2044 peasants, 6081 greycloaks (6031 volunteers added to Nasher's 50). Since 1:5 is adaquate to support the soldiers in the beginning, 1:3 ought to be plenty!
If my forces were empty-bellied, it would affect their morale, but they are quite happy to serve under my command (I get the various rewards and feedback from Kana). Wolf says that there is plenty of food. It is possible that everything is as fine as the numbers indicate.
I might overlook Orlen's complaints about lack of manpower, except that I have never seen more than 2 farmers (one in the front field, one at the side). Being a perfectionist, I want to know where they are. A couple thousand peasants ought to leave a few token farmers working the field. The art exists. There is a designated farmer (identification and script) in Highcliff, who should have been recruitable as well, after the lizzies set up camp in his vegetable patch.
So putting a few instances of him at the Keep, would be using an existing resource. A few pigs could have been added in the distance as well.I've been given Dragon Age, so this might be my last play-through of NWN2 for quite a while. If it is possible to SEE more happy farmers and satisfy Orlen, I'd like to do it.
@kamalpoe: Thanks for the link to the Keep as a separate module. I might dip into that. Next to crafting, building the Keep is my favorite part of the game.
Modifié par hauksdottir, 24 juillet 2010 - 05:51 .
#7
Posté 26 juillet 2010 - 09:06
Adam024
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How do you recruit Orlen? Didn't he die in West Harbor? Raven's mercenaries? The Raven from the tomb in Blacklake?
#8
Posté 26 juillet 2010 - 09:34
I_Raps
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You need to get back to West Harbor before it gets hit by the lower planes.
You want to talk to Orlen, Bevil, and Reta Starling, drop off a package for Brother Merring, and introduce Georg to your new friend, Elanee.
You can talk to Daegun if you want to endure more disrespect.
You want to talk to Orlen, Bevil, and Reta Starling, drop off a package for Brother Merring, and introduce Georg to your new friend, Elanee.
You can talk to Daegun if you want to endure more disrespect.
Modifié par I_Raps, 26 juillet 2010 - 09:35 .
#9
Posté 26 juillet 2010 - 09:58
Belanos
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I_Raps wrote...
You can talk to Daegun if you want to endure more disrespect.
That opens up some possibilities for gaining more influence with Shandra though, so it's worth making the effort.
#10
Posté 27 juillet 2010 - 04:49
hauksdottir
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@Adam024:
When you enter the Ruins at Arvahn and you enter Ammon Jerro's Haven bad things happen in the world outside, so you want to visit merchants, finish quests, and talk to people beforehand. Once you have tied up loose ends, it is ok to enter. (You will often see a cut-scene as an indicator of what is transpiring.)
Not everybody dies when Ammon and his demons destroy West Harbor. You can recruit Orlen and nudge Bevil, getting them out of the way. Your wizardly mentor Tarmas has his own way out (Bevil mentions that in a conversation) and your foster-father Daeghun has a nose for side-slipping danger. They survived being adventurers, after all!
When you revisit and look at the bodies, it is interesting to note who is not there... as well as question why wyrmsage doesn't work everywhere. (And why doesn't it work on cats!!!)
After you start building the Keep into a habitable place, various people will come to you begging for your help, HOWEVER a mayor wants to charter a village, and then offers you some likely lads as volunteers, and a mercenary captain named Raven wants to join you. Both gifts will give you a lot more soldiers, but at the price of permanently lowering your standards. Accepting Raven's men will ding your current soldier's civility and thus affect peasant morale. (This is quite logical, mercenaries by nature are well-trained thugs on a payroll.)
One of the reasons this game is replayable is catching up on all the little sidequests and oddities and other ways to approach a problem is fun. Sometimes what you do affects the game (nudge Bevil and he escapes and becomes one of your Sergeants), and sometimes it doesn't (nudge William and he returns to Juni only to escape again).
Note: I'm not sure that you can recruit Orlen if you didn't help him with the pig problem in the prologue... another reason why I think there ought to be some pigs at the Keep.
When you enter the Ruins at Arvahn and you enter Ammon Jerro's Haven bad things happen in the world outside, so you want to visit merchants, finish quests, and talk to people beforehand. Once you have tied up loose ends, it is ok to enter. (You will often see a cut-scene as an indicator of what is transpiring.)
Not everybody dies when Ammon and his demons destroy West Harbor. You can recruit Orlen and nudge Bevil, getting them out of the way. Your wizardly mentor Tarmas has his own way out (Bevil mentions that in a conversation) and your foster-father Daeghun has a nose for side-slipping danger. They survived being adventurers, after all!
When you revisit and look at the bodies, it is interesting to note who is not there... as well as question why wyrmsage doesn't work everywhere. (And why doesn't it work on cats!!!)After you start building the Keep into a habitable place, various people will come to you begging for your help, HOWEVER a mayor wants to charter a village, and then offers you some likely lads as volunteers, and a mercenary captain named Raven wants to join you. Both gifts will give you a lot more soldiers, but at the price of permanently lowering your standards. Accepting Raven's men will ding your current soldier's civility and thus affect peasant morale. (This is quite logical, mercenaries by nature are well-trained thugs on a payroll.)
One of the reasons this game is replayable is catching up on all the little sidequests and oddities and other ways to approach a problem is fun. Sometimes what you do affects the game (nudge Bevil and he escapes and becomes one of your Sergeants), and sometimes it doesn't (nudge William and he returns to Juni only to escape again).
Note: I'm not sure that you can recruit Orlen if you didn't help him with the pig problem in the prologue... another reason why I think there ought to be some pigs at the Keep.
#11
Posté 27 juillet 2010 - 04:50
Belanos
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hauksdottir wrote...
Note: I'm not sure that you can recruit Orlen if you didn't help him with the pig problem in the prologue... another reason why I think there ought to be some pigs at the Keep.
Yes you can. I never even do the tutorial and I don't have any problem recruiting Orlen. The simple fact that I'm a Harbourman is good enough for him.
#12
Posté 27 juillet 2010 - 05:04
Adam024
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I agree about the wyrmsage- I tried using it after the battle at crossroad keep- if it worked, I'm sure the game would have gotten really screwed up, without the shadow reaversBelanos wrote...
hauksdottir wrote...
Note: I'm not sure that you can recruit Orlen if you didn't help him with the pig problem in the prologue... another reason why I think there ought to be some pigs at the Keep.
Yes you can. I never even do the tutorial and I don't have any problem recruiting Orlen. The simple fact that I'm a Harbourman is good enough for him.
#13
Posté 27 juillet 2010 - 11:27
I_Raps
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I always sell the wyrmsage after Ember. 3gp is 3gp.
#14
Posté 30 juillet 2010 - 03:59
Adam024
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Just out of curiosity, does Joy show up anywhere if you recruit her? I am sure she doesn't serve much of a purpose, but just wondering.....
#15
Posté 30 juillet 2010 - 06:19
I_Raps
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Sure she does. Remember what you recruited her to do.
They're pickin' up the prisoners and puttin'
'em in the pen
And all she wants to do is dance, dance
Rebels been rebels since I don't know when
And all she wants to do is dance
Molotov cocktail-the local drink
And all she wants to do is dance, dance, dance
They mix 'em up right in the kitchen sink
And all she wants to do is dance
Crazy people walkin' round
with blood in their eyes
And all she wants to do is dance, dance
Wild-eyed pistol wavers
who ain't afraid to die
And all she wants to do is-
And all she wants to do is dance
and make romance
She can't feel the heat comin' off the street
She wants to party (oooo)
She wants to get down (oooo)
And all she wants to do is-
And all she wants to do is dance
Well, the government bugged the men's
room in the local disco lounge
And all she wants to do is dance, dance
To keep the boys from sellin'
all the weapons they could scrounge
And all she wants to do is dance
But that don't keep the boys
from makin' a buck or two
And all she wants to do is dance, dance
They still can sell the army
all the drugs that they can do
And all she wants to do is-
All she wants to do is dance
and make romance
Well, we barely made the airport
for the last plane out
As we taxied down the runway
I could hear the people shout
They said, "Don't come back here Yankee!"
But if I ever do-
I'll bring more money
'Cause all she wants to do is dance
and make romance
Never mind the heat comin' off the street
She wants to party (oooo)
She wants to get down (oooo)
All she wants to do is-
All she wants to do is dance
All she wants to do is dance
and make romance
All she wants to do is dance
They're pickin' up the prisoners and puttin'
'em in the pen
And all she wants to do is dance, dance
Rebels been rebels since I don't know when
And all she wants to do is dance
Molotov cocktail-the local drink
And all she wants to do is dance, dance, dance
They mix 'em up right in the kitchen sink
And all she wants to do is dance
Crazy people walkin' round
with blood in their eyes
And all she wants to do is dance, dance
Wild-eyed pistol wavers
who ain't afraid to die
And all she wants to do is-
And all she wants to do is dance
and make romance
She can't feel the heat comin' off the street
She wants to party (oooo)
She wants to get down (oooo)
And all she wants to do is-
And all she wants to do is dance
Well, the government bugged the men's
room in the local disco lounge
And all she wants to do is dance, dance
To keep the boys from sellin'
all the weapons they could scrounge
And all she wants to do is dance
But that don't keep the boys
from makin' a buck or two
And all she wants to do is dance, dance
They still can sell the army
all the drugs that they can do
And all she wants to do is-
All she wants to do is dance
and make romance
Well, we barely made the airport
for the last plane out
As we taxied down the runway
I could hear the people shout
They said, "Don't come back here Yankee!"
But if I ever do-
I'll bring more money
'Cause all she wants to do is dance
and make romance
Never mind the heat comin' off the street
She wants to party (oooo)
She wants to get down (oooo)
All she wants to do is-
All she wants to do is dance
All she wants to do is dance
and make romance
All she wants to do is dance
Modifié par I_Raps, 30 juillet 2010 - 06:28 .
#18
Posté 31 juillet 2010 - 08:58
hauksdottir
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"Close. InnTV." 
They don't have the smily face that rolls back & forth. sigh
If you talked to Sal back in the Docks, he mentions wanting to open up his own inn someday. After you get the Keep he makes the move. I can't quite see him setting up an establishment like Ophalia's Moonstone Mask
but he does think that musicians and dancers would liven up the place and attract custom. If you have the hidden tax on all sales within the Keep, you might want to encourage him.
At one time during development I think they were considering making Teelah recruitable. However, that does impact the balance. Almost all the recruits come in pairs: 2 miners, 2 smiths, 2 merchants, 2 capable sergeants (Katriona & Light of Heavens, 2 sergeants with issues (Jalboun & Bevil)... so 2 entertainers may seem logical to the developers.
*I* think it would have been better to recruit another farmer or herder (pigs, sheep, cows, chickens) since armies travel on their stomachs and Keeps are designed to be besieged. If you know that you must withstand a siege, you make sure to protect your water sources AND have lots of food at hand. They had the art assets, and adding a few lines of dialogue wouldn't have been a big deal. The relevant mechanic would be similar to having both miners... a sort of synergy... and the result would be a nudge on the morale or civility tickers.
They don't have the smily face that rolls back & forth. sigh
If you talked to Sal back in the Docks, he mentions wanting to open up his own inn someday. After you get the Keep he makes the move. I can't quite see him setting up an establishment like Ophalia's Moonstone Mask
but he does think that musicians and dancers would liven up the place and attract custom. If you have the hidden tax on all sales within the Keep, you might want to encourage him.At one time during development I think they were considering making Teelah recruitable. However, that does impact the balance. Almost all the recruits come in pairs: 2 miners, 2 smiths, 2 merchants, 2 capable sergeants (Katriona & Light of Heavens, 2 sergeants with issues (Jalboun & Bevil)... so 2 entertainers may seem logical to the developers.
*I* think it would have been better to recruit another farmer or herder (pigs, sheep, cows, chickens) since armies travel on their stomachs and Keeps are designed to be besieged. If you know that you must withstand a siege, you make sure to protect your water sources AND have lots of food at hand. They had the art assets, and adding a few lines of dialogue wouldn't have been a big deal. The relevant mechanic would be similar to having both miners... a sort of synergy... and the result would be a nudge on the morale or civility tickers.
