38 réponses à ce sujet

[Guns]

I don't get why would you go for a cunning build, wouldn't dex provide more dps?

[killermadman]

cunning score boosts the effectiveness of several skills and talents search the dragonage wikia sight for cunning and see for yourself.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

With Lethality, Cunning contribtes just as much to dps. As far as rogues are concired it boils down to two aspects.



Dex = Untouchable Defense (aside from auto-hit abilities)

Cun = Open/disarm anything



With Cunning, if you go Bard the Song bonuses are based off Cunning so a high score boosts those bonuses as well. For you and all party members.

[Guns]

So dex is more survivability and cun is utility, both having good dps?

[DWSmiley]

Yep. Dex is easier as it confers great attack and defense scores. You can even off-tank. But a cunning rogue can do more damage - cunning increases armor penetration and makes tainted balde, exploit weakness and bard songs more powerful. You can still get a good hit rate with flanking and/or buffs.



You'll still want 30 points in whichever you don't maximimze, maybe more. My last dw rogue ended with dex 64 (enough to be unhittable) and cunning @48.

[soteria]

Cunning will deal higher damage with the right talents than dex will. Significantly more, actually, in certain builds. Cunning rogues do want more party support than dex rogues, though.

[beancounter501]

While lots of people on the boards love the cunning Rogue, I personnally think he stinks. Everybody gets so focused on squeezing out an extra 20% damage, they forget how the rest of the party suffers trying to boost the cun Rogues horrible attack score. Give me a dex/str Rogue and the rest of the party set up to kick butt, vs a cunning Rogue and the rest of the party trying to cover his butt.

[DWSmiley]

Suffers, bc? Morrigan casts continual Heroic Offense on me but it's a cheap spell and I usually start combat with it active, so she doesn't need to cast many during combat. Alistair finally has motivate and my pc has song of courage but that helps the entire party. And with no butt covering I've only had 2 injuries - good for me. Once getting to the Tower of Ishal when I foolishly moved into the lead and then again in the Zevran ambush, when the mage paralyzed me and ran away. I had everyone else chase her, forgetting it left poor, paralyzed me surrounded by Zev and his lackeys. Leading to the first time I've killed Zev...

EDIT:  This is not my dex dw rogue.  She's a cunning archer who *will* finish with a hit rate well above 90%.

Modifié par DWSmiley, 23 juillet 2010 - 11:13 .

[beancounter501]

^ No complaints on Rally and SoC. But, I certainitly do not see any value in having my mage waste a spell every 20 seconds to boost my lackluster attack rating. A Rally/SoC/Heroic Offense character should have a much higher hit ratio then the low 90's. You should be basically auto hitting. And the hit rate counter on the screen is not the most accurate thing. What was the hit rate in the low levels and mid levels?

Time is money so they say. How much more damage would Morrigan have done if she was not buffing your rogue? How many Fireballs/CoC did she miss out on? Was your cunning Rogue using all the best equipment? Or were you spreading it out with the rest of the group? How much time in every battle did you waste trying to flank a target? Was Alistar a Dex S&S that taunted every battle?  Did you need a dead wood tank to cover for your Rogue that would get dropped in a heartbeat if the tank lost aggro?  Cunning Rogues NEED support characters and NEED the best gear. Dex/Str Rogue do not. Just my 2 cents.

Edit: Not trying to single you out there Smiley

Modifié par beancounter501, 24 juillet 2010 - 12:10 .

[soteria]

Beancounter, without party buffs, the difference between a dex and cunning rogue is usually ~30% chance to hit. Discobird's calculations, for what they're worth, support that disparity as well, and show the cunning build at 100dps and dex at 83.

Now, for comparison purposes, we're going to step out of the world of real numbers. If you modify the dex build for hitting 30% more often, dex jumps up to 109. I believe you've stated in the past that dex builds are at or near 100% hit rate unbuffed, right? If not we can debate the numbers a little more. Regardless, if we assume dex is at 100% hit with 109dps, and cunning is at 70% hit rate with 100dps, well, the cunning build can only get better, but the dex build is pretty much capped.

I know this is a single-player game, but I'm going to put on my World of Warcraft raid dps hat: when you're choosing gear, you always want to be cognizant of which buffs will be available and what the opportunity cost of those buffs are. All else being equal, reaching the hit cap is always going to be the number one priority. Hit, though, is a cappable stat. Once you reach the point where you're always hitting your target, further buffs are wasted. Damage is not. The goal is to buff your hit rate to the point where the available buffs will put you up to the hit cap without going over. I maintain that the two builds are close, but cunning has more potential because while damage buffs benefit both specs, attack buffs don't.

All that's from a hard min/maxing perspective, of course.

[DWSmiley]

beancounter501 wrote...

^ No complaints on Rally and SoC. But, I certainitly do not see any value in having my mage waste a spell every 20 seconds to boost my lackluster attack rating. A Rally/SoC/Heroic Offense character should have a much higher hit ratio then the low 90's. You should be basically auto hitting. And the hit rate counter on the screen is not the most accurate thing. What was the hit rate in the low levels and mid levels?

Time is money so they say. How much more damage would Morrigan have done if she was not buffing your rogue? How many Fireballs/CoC did she miss out on? Was your cunning Rogue using all the best equipment? Or were you spreading it out with the rest of the group? How much time in every battle did you waste trying to flank a target? Was Alistar a Dex S&S that taunted every battle?  Did you need a dead wood tank to cover for your Rogue that would get dropped in a heartbeat if the tank lost aggro?  Cunning Rogues NEED support characters and NEED the best gear. Dex/Str Rogue do not. Just my 2 cents.

Edit: Not trying to single you out there Smiley

Not to worry - happy to chat, whether we agree or not. 

Soteria has made the point that finishing with 100+ hit rate is not helpful.  Morrigan still gets her spells in and rarely drinks a potion, though that's more Shale's doing than my pc's.  Earthen Grasp is just fantastic.  My pc has most of the best stuff but that's the way it usually is.  I rarely bother to flank and never if it means moving far.

Dex S&S - never!  And never taunt.

Yes, I need support but I'm not soloing.  And cunning is much better than wasting points in str.    My rogues don't clank around, metal-clad from head to toe, nor do they need to to survive.  I just finished the Dalish quest with nary an overwhelm.

That said, I couldn't claim my pc is strong - only 34% of party damage, less than any I can recall.  But the group works really well and variety is the spice of life.

Edit:  Maybe I am auto hitting now.  My attack score is 155 with heroic offense and 139 without, plus I'm about to get the Felon's Coat for another +6.  Does anyone know what attack = auto hit?  There is also the range penalty to consider but I usually avoid that as I try to stay within Shale's rock mastery aura.

Modifié par DWSmiley, 24 juillet 2010 - 12:46 .

[beancounter501]

^^ That is certainitly a good attack rating. I am curious what your stats are and what gear you are using to hit that rating. I find an attack rating around 140 is good enough to auto hit just about anything. Not sure with an archer though.



@Soteria - most of the extra damage from a cunning Rogue comes from tainted blade. Tainted Blade seems to cause most of my Rogue builds to die rather quickly. Exploit Weakness contributes some and SoC does not really contribute that much damage. Maybe in extra 7 points.

[Goldrock]

hehe i tend too use a warrior mix dex and str and i duel wield daggers fun stuff.

[DWSmiley]

beancounter501 wrote...

^^ That is certainitly a good attack rating. I am curious what your stats are and what gear you are using to hit that rating. I find an attack rating around 140 is good enough to auto hit just about anything. Not sure with an archer though.

@Soteria - most of the extra damage from a cunning Rogue comes from tainted blade. Tainted Blade seems to cause most of my Rogue builds to die rather quickly. Exploit Weakness contributes some and SoC does not really contribute that much damage. Maybe in extra 7 points.

attr:  str 14, dex 30, will 18, mag 14, cun 57, con 12 (level 16)
armor:  helm of honnleath, dalish chest piece, repeater gloves, silverhammer's tackmasters
weapon:  Far Song!
accessories: dalish belt (stamina regen), warden's oath, key to the city, harvest festival ring
sustainables:  dueling, aim, SoC, (motivate), (rock mastery)

Looks like I should give the harvest ring to Alistair, as he needs it more now.   lol

Modifié par DWSmiley, 24 juillet 2010 - 04:08 .

[soteria]

@Soteria - most of the extra damage from a cunning Rogue comes from tainted blade. Tainted Blade seems to cause most of my Rogue builds to die rather quickly. Exploit Weakness contributes some and SoC does not really contribute that much damage. Maybe in extra 7 points.

The Tainted Blade is more or less what exploit weakness and soc contribute together. Without it, the cunning build is still ~17 points ahead per swing, I believe.

[Yrkoon]

DWSmiley wrote...
  Does anyone know what attack = auto hit?

I've been wondering this for eons.

I just got done with an  Awakening run,  and at level 34+  both my main character and Sigun had  Attack scores somewhere in the 170s,  But there were still occasions when we'd miss.  I'm wondering if there's *always*  at  chance to...

Modifié par Yrkoon, 25 juillet 2010 - 05:21 .

[soteria]

You could search for beancounter's "total warrior party" thread and I think starting on page 5 he collected the attributes of a good number of enemies. Unfortunately the level isn't included, but you should be able to get an idea of their level from the zone. Just add 54 to their attack rating.

[Homebound]

Im thinking of making a Dagger Rogue with some archer ability. I thought of getting the Archer ability Scattershot so I can control crowds but thats it. What should my stats look like? What should my weapons be? What skills should I get?

[beancounter501]

The highest defense I ever saw in Orgins was 99 which was on a Reverant. Since aura of weakness debuffs your attack by 10 an attack score of 163 should allow you to auto hit everything. Most critters have a max defense of 80 which means an attack of 134 should allow you to auto hit most things. Now that is a melee defense, most guys also get a bonus against archery.



I have not pulled to many stats from Awakening, but I did notice my warrior missing every now and then. Especially against the Genlock Shadows.

[Yrkoon]

beancounter501 wrote...

The highest defense I ever saw in Orgins was 99 which was on a Reverant. Since aura of weakness debuffs your attack by 10 an attack score of 163 should allow you to auto hit everything. Most critters have a max defense of 80 which means an attack of 134 should allow you to auto hit most things. Now that is a melee defense, most guys also get a bonus against archery.

I understand what the numbers say.     What I'm wondering though is whether the game engine leaves open a possibility to miss no matter what  (sorta like in  Baldur's gate when your THAC0 can be -25  or better, but  if you roll a 1 you still miss your opponent)

Also, how does Dodge factor into the equation here?  If your defense  is really low, say 60 or so, but you're wearing Caelin's boots which give you a +20% dodge bonus, doesn't that mean your enemy has a 1 in 5 chance to miss you with a melee attack, no matter what their attack score is?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 25 juillet 2010 - 03:25 .

[DWSmiley]

Thanks beancounter - and it's handy that max useful attack is about the same as max useful defense. Easier to remember.



There is definitely some penalty to archery besides the one for being beyond the range of the bow, else my cumulative hit rate would be going up faster.

[beancounter501]

@Yrkoon - there is no auto hit or auto miss due to a roll. The to hit is a 100 point roll. You can roll a one and still hit if your attack score is high enough. Likewise rolling a 100 can still miss.



Dodge is calculated before the hit roll. So a 20% dodge means 1 in 5 attacks will miss no matter what. That is why some people do not like the Rogue talent evasion - it plays the dodge animation even though the critter could never hit you anyway.



@Smiley - That hit rate is over the life of your character. So it takes a while to get it moving. At least I think it is. I personaly think it is a little wonky.

[Ayanko]

Idk why would put any in cunning at all. Last time I checked wasn't there a screw up with rouge builds resulting in a rouges power coming soley from Str, rather than dex and cunning.

Sure put some cunning in for your skills.

Dexterity 2nd as most rouge talents need high dex to achieve.

But most needs to be in Str.

I forget if this only implies to the console versions of the game, could be console and PC.

[Yrkoon]

beancounter501 wrote...


Dodge is calculated before the hit roll. So a 20% dodge means 1 in 5 attacks will miss no matter what. .

Aaah.  That's good to know. 

So a power gamer's alternative answer to this thread is to Boost Cunning all the way, then try to  equip as many +dodge and +attack  items as possible to make up for  his crappy defense and attack!

[yasuraka.hakkyou]

beancounter501 wrote...

What was the hit rate in the low levels and mid levels?

I see low 40's and up to maybe 60, in the origins personally.

Personally, I favor Dex more. Cun may do more damage (adjusting for players and gear, etc), but they just seem like melee only mages (in that they're a glass cannon). With Dex, you get redonkulus hard to hit and are almost auto-hitting with attacks and abilities. Plus, from other games and such, I feel that Rogues should be the dodgy ones you always curse out , not some melee only mage (yes that's probably a sh-tty analogy, but I've already worked like 9 hours today and I'm tired).

Just my .02 as always.

EDIT: quick side note, isn't the max armor pen possible like 41 or 42? Checked the wiki, 41 FYI

Modifié par yasuraka.hakkyou, 25 juillet 2010 - 05:26 .