75 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Batman90 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

The difference is nobody thinks the character in a MMORPG ad is the one you're going to play yourself.

But that assumes that the consumer knows that the game is an MMORPG. If we can't expect the average consumer to know that Dragon Age is a WRPG--a genre known for choice and customizability--how can we expect the average consumer to know that WoW or Guild Wars is an MMORPG, and not just some fantasy action game?

I'm not sure consumers are that stupid. I haven't seen anyone on the DA board complain that he was expecting DA to be an MMORPG.

[WingsandRings]

AlanC9 wrote...

Batman90 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

The difference is nobody thinks the character in a MMORPG ad is the one you're going to play yourself.

But that assumes that the consumer knows that the game is an MMORPG. If we can't expect the average consumer to know that Dragon Age is a WRPG--a genre known for choice and customizability--how can we expect the average consumer to know that WoW or Guild Wars is an MMORPG, and not just some fantasy action game?

I'm not sure consumers are that stupid. I haven't seen anyone on the DA board complain that he was expecting DA to be an MMORPG.

....You haven't?

They've been here.

[erilben]

In the new Halo that is coming out, you customize the main character. Therefore, he/she is not on the box art or other promotional material. It's ridiculous to think people are too stupid for this kind of thing.

[fchopin]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
 I resent that iconic Shepard or Hawke exists at all.

i am afraid i don't understand this.

[Kreid]

As Bioware staff have said a lot of times already, the game benefits from having a recognizable face from a marketing standpoint, the character being male is just a byproduct of the majority of the gaming demographic being male and thus relating more to a male character.

Showing both the male and female character in marketing at the same time (like, both male and female in the cover) or otherwise would probably confuse potential costumer that are not familiarized with the game.

It's just marketing, we know that you can both play as male and female during the game AND that they are equally important.

Now, before anyone jumps my throat I want to say that I understand perfectly that female gamers also want representation and I think they are obviously entitled to express their opinion, although I can see Bioware's stance, this not a topic I'd be gladly to debate right now so I'm making clear that I'm merely stating what I've gathered from previous posts.

[facialstrokage]

1. Just because games like WOW and Guild Wars are successful doesn't negate the logic. How do you they wouldn't have been even more successful with a male character?



2. I would guess (I'm not sure) that MMOs like WOW have, proportionallly, more female players than an action game like ME2.



3. Games like FFXII don't really rely on the cover art as much as it's the twelves game in the series already. People know the brand.



4. There's always the case of bad marketing. Stupid people don't know what they're doing.

[Monstruo696]

Baby Jesus H. Christ on a Bike, not this discussion again.

[Captain Iglo]

We, the people here on the forum, are not the target audience of all this marketing.
They know that we will suck up every single information we can find anyway, they dont need to worry to convince us with some shiny cover or a nice trailer...they let the gameplay videos and interviews do the job to get us onboard..

But the causual gamer (which happens to be at least 85% male) is the one who brings in the big money...and he often is only seeing this "one trailer" or just this "one cover"!

Thats why the marketing is not designed to please us ...well...hardcore fans or "already" fans...

Modifié par Captain Iglo, 24 juillet 2010 - 07:04 .

[Wynne]

Finiffa wrote...

And THAT is the problem. I do not like to play males, thats just a matter of preference. So I often skip games if I am forced to play a male. I am still in doubt about getting the Witcher because of this. I would not have played ME2 if I had not ACCIDENTLY found out I could play a female. The reviews I read did not mention it, the screenshots and cover did not show it. BAD marketing.

See, this is exactly what I've been worried about. When given a choice, most women will go for the games that let you play female. This is why I want them to make the information more available. (Kudos to Mike for doing that in a recent podcast; I hope they keep mentioning it.) I think they could draw in even more people if they made sure newcomers know you can pick your gender. I know they have a reputation for this, but that doesn't reach everybody.

I vastly prefer being able to play a female character. The Witcher became one of my few exceptions. I forgave it because the protagonist is a character from a book, so he has a truly defined personality (although since he lost his memory, you can steer him in another direction if you want to and make various choices throughout the game, yet he still always feels like a fairly faithful version of the Geralt from the novels). Even though there were some small, mostly avoidable ridiculous elements in the first game, the developers have since said (paraphrasing here) "that was so not us, we realize people thought the encounter cards in the first game were silly, the sequel will be more sensible about this and stick to meaningful moments." They've already put Triss in full clothes like a fencer for TW2; she looks fantastic. In the first game, she wore a silly epic cleavage dress which I thought told me all I needed to know about the game, and I almost didn't touch it. But at the urging of two guys whose opinions I trust, one of them my dad, I did give it a chance and found out that the two potential LIs in the game were actually a powerful sorceress and a doctor, both of them fiery no-nonsense women with strong opinions and goals of their own.

The Witcher's universe treats both genders badly because it's a medieval Crapsack World full of racism, sexism, plague, oppressed poor, epicurean nobles, coups, etc. and truly good-hearted, independent people are rare (Triss and Shani, the LIs, are two of them.) The protagonist respects women; the reason he sleeps with a good number of them in the first game is because witchers are sterile and disease-free, so sex with Geralt is the medieval equivalent of safe sex with an exotic albino who has a nice pair of buns (which you get to watch move during the course of the game. I considered that a plus.) Not that I don't respect Geralt--he's actually not my type, probably because despite being a woman, I tend to come up as him in Witcher-related personality tests, interestingly. You'll also hear conversations walking around the world like when a woman is telling a friend that her husband beats her, the response is, "next time he tries it, hit him with a pan, then tell your brother. Think of your children!" "You're right, I'll show him." And while Witchers are carefully neutral, the Lodge of Sorceresses has a certain amount of political power, and they generally try to use it for good; Triss in particular wants to prevent wars from happening, as she lost a lot of friends in the Battle of Sodden, which she fought in. So the universe is pretty detailed, nuanced, and complex, and the sympathetic characters aren't a part of the more dysfunctional elements of society. And if you thought elven oppression was tasty in DAO, you'll love what they do to elves in The Witcher. They're a truly angry, desperate people on average, and a bit prideful. Very interesting.

If you're looking for something to pass the time 'til DA2, I'd give it a chance. Both games were cinematic and had the general goal of "dark fantasy" going on. I think The Witcher actually did better at weaving the "dark" part of that equation through its plotlines, but DAO was more flexible and had a different dynamic. I'm quite fond of both games for what they do. The Witcher's soundtrack is particularly epic; one of the best I've ever heard for a game.

Anyway, back on topic--I'd still like to see more marketing towards females from Bioware, just enough to make it clear what's going on. The Witcher, like DAO, sold really well, but not nearly as well. The Witcher sold about a million; DAO broke triple platinum. As great as the game was, the console market and appeal to women gamers are two factors which I think it's safe to say will affect sales. While the console market is huge, according to the ESA stats I'd guess that about 30-40% of total sales on DAO were to women. We're a growing demographic.

If they want to have a recognizable male figurehead--sure, great. I know that icons garner attention and stick in the memory. But I think some attention should also be given to making LadyHawke iconic as well. If you carve a female icon, it will draw in even more gamers--those who otherwise might not realize that the game fits in their category of interest.

Modifié par Wynne, 24 juillet 2010 - 10:34 .

[mopotter]

Saibh wrote...

Yech...we just had this thread and it did not end well.

The only thing I'll (hopefully) say, is that only Mass Effect has featured a male on the cover more prominent than a female in a BioWare game--and both of those titles still have women on them.

 yes, didn't end well.  

They are going down the Fable II and III path and I find it sad.  

[mopotter]

lv12medic wrote...

Once upon a time, there was a slip cover on the box with a hologram picture. Male Hawke at one angle, Female Hawke at another, and the background stayed the same. It was eye catching, many a game was sold, and the people rejoiced. And gamers lived happily ever after. The end.

This would be a collector box I'd pay extra for on any of their games.

[darlarosa]

Well as a female I would be satisfied if they a front cover and a back cover or a special edition that depicts a female Hawke. I mean no woman I know would complain if there was a badass chick in reasonable armor replacing Hawke on an alternative cover or hell the game manual even.



It's more or less the principle of the thing it feels a bit neglectful toward the "gentler sex" when we can be just as badass as a dude.



As to the covers depicting characters the player can relate to...I'm a black female gamer whose characters are always black females. I really can't associate with any default characters, but that doesn't bother me. And default Shepard looks like a tool, and I don't know why

[mopotter]

asaiasai wrote...

For ****s and giggles how about making some boxes have fems and some males in a random assortment kind of way. When you go to a local retailer and see the game on the shelf would be the only time to get a specific one, other than that you get what ever is dropped in the shipping box. Same for the collectors editions as well, i know some of you OCDers out there will just have to buy 2 copies to have the complete collection thereby selling more copies even if it takes advantage of someone's illness. Wow am i an evil bastard or what?

Asai

well, I have bought 2 copies of DA.  One for the pc and one for the 360.  I'l love to have a collectors edition with both of them on it.

[mopotter]

Finiffa wrote...

Querne wrote...

It´s quite funny, I had to think about our discussion here, because accidently I realized yesterday for the first time, that I could play as female in Divinity:Ego Draconis.

You can??? Ok this is ME2 all over again. Only when my husband bought it and started playing I found out you could in fact play a female. I did not follow the ME-forums so I did not know.
And THAT is the problem. I do not like to play males, thats just a matter of preference. So I often skip games if I am forced to play a male. I am still in doubt about getting the Witcher because of this. I would not have played ME2 if I had not ACCIDENTLY found out I could play a female. The reviews I read did not mention it, the screenshots and cover did not show it. BAD marketing.

My daughter just wrote off Fable 3 from her wishlist because "bah, you can only play a male again" after reading previews. And I havent been able to find out so far if that is true or not......

2nd this.  I will check it out.

[pizoxuat]

If they do a demonstration of the beginning of the game, it'd be nice if they would consider showing character creation and have the demonstrator make a female Hawke to play out the demonstration with. Marketing keeps their iconic beardo, we get to see female Hawke.

[Deviija]

Finiffa wrote...
My daughter just wrote off Fable 3 from her wishlist because "bah, you can only play a male again" after reading previews. And I havent been able to find out so far if that is true or not......

Oh no, don't write off Fable 3.  You can play male or female, even if the box cover is a male hero plastered on it.  The company has been quite vocal about being able to play as a male or female, becoming King or Queen of Albion in this installment, as well as being able to rule as King/Queen with other players or NPCs.  (Or King/King, or Queen/ Queen.)  They even have been showing the female PC in screenshots, and her new wardrobe, and in demos.  If one thing the Fable series does right it is their open-ended  marketing toward both male and female (hetero and same-sex) markets.  It is incredibly inclusive and I love them for that.

I'd like it if DA2 would walk that same path, promoting in-game female Hawke in interviews, marketing, media, demos, etc.

[mopotter]

AlexXIV wrote...

They could just leave a dark shadow on the box, to emphasize that there is no pre-set hero. It is not even about female or male, I didn't like their Shepard, Grey Warden and I certainly don't like their Hawke in the Trailers. That's why I hardly watched them (maybe once each, if even that). They can make Trailers just with the companions, so the 'hero' doesn't even need to show. Not that it is a big issue, just something disturbing in general with the way Bioware are doing it. And it is not about marketing, it is simply a case of stupid, which happens everywhere, even at Bioware.

I like this.   I like the dragon with the blank images along the wing tip.  

[Saibh]

mopotter wrote...

Finiffa wrote...

Querne wrote...

It´s quite funny, I had to think about our discussion here, because accidently I realized yesterday for the first time, that I could play as female in Divinity:Ego Draconis.

You can??? Ok this is ME2 all over again. Only when my husband bought it and started playing I found out you could in fact play a female. I did not follow the ME-forums so I did not know.
And THAT is the problem. I do not like to play males, thats just a matter of preference. So I often skip games if I am forced to play a male. I am still in doubt about getting the Witcher because of this. I would not have played ME2 if I had not ACCIDENTLY found out I could play a female. The reviews I read did not mention it, the screenshots and cover did not show it. BAD marketing.

My daughter just wrote off Fable 3 from her wishlist because "bah, you can only play a male again" after reading previews. And I havent been able to find out so far if that is true or not......

2nd this.  I will check it out.

http://lionhead.com/...is-holiday.aspx

"One unique outfit: Unearth one male and female outfit from the mysterious, faraway land of Aurora, a new destination in your “Fable III” adventures."

EDIT: Cut to the chase.  Also:

http://lionhead.com/...shots/E3_07.jpg

The female Hero.

Modifié par Saibh, 24 juillet 2010 - 11:10 .

[Mordaedil]

Deviija wrote...

Finiffa wrote...
My daughter just wrote off Fable 3 from her wishlist because "bah, you can only play a male again" after reading previews. And I havent been able to find out so far if that is true or not......

Oh no, don't write off Fable 3.  You can play male or female, even if the box cover is a male hero plastered on it.  The company has been quite vocal about being able to play as a male or female, becoming King or Queen of Albion in this installment, as well as being able to rule as King/Queen with other players or NPCs.  (Or King/King, or Queen/ Queen.)  They even have been showing the female PC in screenshots, and her new wardrobe, and in demos.  If one thing the Fable series does right it is their open-ended  marketing toward both male and female (hetero and same-sex) markets.  It is incredibly inclusive and I love them for that.

Except the first one, where you could play as only a male, but you could cross-dress and marry a bloke.

Fable 2's big thing was the choice of gender and GUNS! And Fable 3 continues that. Fable 3 remains on my wishlist with help of that, but I really need to get in a certain mood to enjoy the Fables.

[mopotter]

WingsandRings wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Batman90 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

The difference is nobody thinks the character in a MMORPG ad is the one you're going to play yourself.

But that assumes that the consumer knows that the game is an MMORPG. If we can't expect the average consumer to know that Dragon Age is a WRPG--a genre known for choice and customizability--how can we expect the average consumer to know that WoW or Guild Wars is an MMORPG, and not just some fantasy action game?

I'm not sure consumers are that stupid. I haven't seen anyone on the DA board complain that he was expecting DA to be an MMORPG.

....You haven't?

They've been here.

I've seen some complain that they wanted it to be mmorpg or co-op , but I haven't noticed anyone saying they thought it would be, must have missed them, or skipped that subject.

[mopotter]

Saibh wrote...

mopotter wrote...

Finiffa wrote...

Querne wrote...

It´s quite funny, I had to think about our discussion here, because accidently I realized yesterday for the first time, that I could play as female in Divinity:Ego Draconis.

You can??? Ok this is ME2 all over again. Only when my husband bought it and started playing I found out you could in fact play a female. I did not follow the ME-forums so I did not know.
And THAT is the problem. I do not like to play males, thats just a matter of preference. So I often skip games if I am forced to play a male. I am still in doubt about getting the Witcher because of this. I would not have played ME2 if I had not ACCIDENTLY found out I could play a female. The reviews I read did not mention it, the screenshots and cover did not show it. BAD marketing.

My daughter just wrote off Fable 3 from her wishlist because "bah, you can only play a male again" after reading previews. And I havent been able to find out so far if that is true or not......

2nd this.  I will check it out.

http://lionhead.com/...is-holiday.aspx

"One unique outfit: Unearth one male and female outfit from the mysterious, faraway land of Aurora, a new destination in your “Fable III” adventures."

EDIT: Cut to the chase.  Also:

http://lionhead.com/...shots/E3_07.jpg

The female Hero.

Thanks Nice.  

Fable III is on my buy list when it comes out, now I can also add the Divinity one.  

[FlintlockJazz]

WingsandRings wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Batman90 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

The difference is nobody thinks the character in a MMORPG ad is the one you're going to play yourself.

But that assumes that the consumer knows that the game is an MMORPG. If we can't expect the average consumer to know that Dragon Age is a WRPG--a genre known for choice and customizability--how can we expect the average consumer to know that WoW or Guild Wars is an MMORPG, and not just some fantasy action game?

I'm not sure consumers are that stupid. I haven't seen anyone on the DA board complain that he was expecting DA to be an MMORPG.

....You haven't?

They've been here.

It's not an MMO??!  Who've I been talking to and adventuring with all this time??!

[Zenchii]

I say just don't use the main character on the box art. I'd like you all to take a look at the box art for dragon age 1 on the first page again only this time, Imagine the guy in armor as Sten with the helmet off. I think that's what they should do. reasons being are:

1. It shows both a male and female character. 

2. both characters appear in-game and therefore is not misleading. It would also satisfy those who tried the game out because the cover characters won them over.

 3. And last but most important, it doesn't make you feel like your Sheopard/hawke is the "wrong" Sheopard/hawke. 



While I am a straight male, I'm sick to death of the lead in a story always being a male. it's just so old. which is why I like having the ability to change that. I was told about dragon age by a friend who knew that I loved character customization. he also told me about ME 1 and 2. I'm not interested in getting ME 1 because I can feel it in my bones that no matter what I do, the "real" Cannon Sheopard will always be your average white marine guy.

ME 2 I'm considering. I still have the same issue as previously stated, the difference this time though is JACK!  I was always a fan of unconventional Beauty, And I've heard great things about her story.

[joriandrake]

mopotter wrote...

Saibh wrote...

mopotter wrote...

Finiffa wrote...

Querne wrote...

It´s quite funny, I had to think about our discussion here, because accidently I realized yesterday for the first time, that I could play as female in Divinity:Ego Draconis.

You can??? Ok this is ME2 all over again. Only when my husband bought it and started playing I found out you could in fact play a female. I did not follow the ME-forums so I did not know.
And THAT is the problem. I do not like to play males, thats just a matter of preference. So I often skip games if I am forced to play a male. I am still in doubt about getting the Witcher because of this. I would not have played ME2 if I had not ACCIDENTLY found out I could play a female. The reviews I read did not mention it, the screenshots and cover did not show it. BAD marketing.

My daughter just wrote off Fable 3 from her wishlist because "bah, you can only play a male again" after reading previews. And I havent been able to find out so far if that is true or not......

2nd this.  I will check it out.

http://lionhead.com/...is-holiday.aspx

"One unique outfit: Unearth one male and female outfit from the mysterious, faraway land of Aurora, a new destination in your “Fable III” adventures."

EDIT: Cut to the chase.  Also:

http://lionhead.com/...shots/E3_07.jpg

The female Hero.

Thanks Nice.  

Fable III is on my buy list when it comes out, now I can also add the Divinity one.  

Divinity 2 plus its soon to be out expansion, it shows things that should be in Bioware games since ages