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Game Problems without solutions: hold onto your money


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#1
Gorath Alpha

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               Created 3 months ago, Modified about 1 month ago
                 Ignore Warning Labels at Your Wallet's Peril

For two years, possibly three, during roughly 2004 to 2006, about 70 % of the desktop PCs sold did not include any dedicated 3D video expansion slot, and this ratio jumped to 90 % of laptops.  Without such capability, those PCs are not game-capable machines.  Numerous of my (past) references here at the BioWare Community (the original of this comment dates back a couple of years) cover various aspects of this.  The minimum (discrete add-in device) video card includes a GPU made by ATI or nVidia.  Nothing from Intel qualifies.

The old AGP video bus was a very complicated system, and costly to include on an economy priced mainboard, but the much more recent PCI-e video bus system is far less complicated, and we all should be well pleased that AGP faded out of favor rapidly.  However, the manufacturing process that laptops standardized on amounts to a similar limitation.  They are almost all a monobloc, solid, with no access to any upgrade for CPU or graphics. 

Current laptops continue to to be sold with mostly unusable video systems.  All recent 3D games have a warning label on the back, bottom flap, or side panel, of the game's box, that you should never ignore!  The official minimums (DA: O), IMO, aren't really good (practical) choices for that designation.  Nevertheless, they are real video cards, while Intel hasn't even tried to produce one of those since their disastrous singleton about a dozen years ago.

Far too often, owners of below minimum hardware are complaining about problems and avoiding the truth that they should have expected trouble due to the cheap or obsolete hardware they have.  I choose not to try answering questions that don't have a basic list of the important components, at least. 

Elsewhere, the differences between what a Game Developer chooses to name as the minimum, and what the cheapskate route to playing games on junk for graphics amounts to, have been defined.  Some onboard chips from AMD and nVIDIA can satisfy that latter crowd, but I personally believe they are doing a disservice to the work done by Bioware's people creating this game when they choose to do this. 

P. S. Another thing that I have seen fairly frequently during the past couple of years, while the cachet for owning laptops has gone up, and desktops have become too Low-Status to hold onto, is that over time, ordinary systems being forced into use at playing games when they were not designed to do so are deteriorating.  I don't know what goes bad, or how, and can only offer my suspicion that it is probably heat-related. 

Both AMD and nVIDIA have been offering various Chipset video chips for about three or four years that have all of the needed functions and features, other than dedicated VRAM, and fairly recently Intel has been able to offer some Chipset graphics that challenges the 3D companies' onboard superiority, which has in its own turn encouraged other Intel Chip video owners to try to join in, for which there are some software add-ons to use that disguise the worst of the Intel Chips from the games' configuration tests. 

It is systems with those onboard solutions primarily, but also some systems with Low-End business graphics cards, that are wearing out prematurely from the demands of game playing, I think.

Gorath

Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 30 janvier 2011 - 04:55 .


#2
mousestalker

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Your post is not what I expected from the title. I approve this message whole heartedly.



One area of misunderstanding is the nasty habit video chip manufacturers have of assigning the same numbers to desktop and laptop video card chips. The 260 GTX is a different beast from the 260M GTX. The latter is significantly less capable. It's very deceptive and results in a fair number of laptop owners thinking they have a gaming laptop when they really don't.




#3
DABhand

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I agree the 260m has a lesser set of reference clocks, but it is not limited in terms of Pixel Shading and DirectX API usage. One thing to definitely look for if a laptop has a 260m is to check if it is a GTS and not a GTX, as the GTS version has a huge memory bandwith over its GTX cousin, almost 4 times as fast.



But as far as im concerened, the GTX 9800m is still better, the GTS 9800m has a slightly higher memory bandwith, but its the GTX's stream processing that wins there.



Previous to the 9800m then it is not worth having as they were extremely limited, but after the 9800m all Nvidia mobile GPU's have been close to their desktop cousins in most ways.

#4
Gorath Alpha

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Incidentally, this exchange (in the Mass Effect 2 Tech Forum) is emblematic of the overall situation that this thread was directed at:

"ME2 installed... upon startup black screen.... APPCRASH...."

Talox_Anura wrote...

I'm trying to install this game for my 10 year old. So I'm not too computer literate. Installation was long but fine. Can't get past the click of the play button.... Not sure what my next step would be?

I don't know how to look up what the computer configuration is, however I do know its a new Toshiba Laptop?

EA_Isledyr wrote...

Hi Talox_Anura and thanks guys,

A black screen crash is normally due to not meeting the minimum requirements for the game. As stated by Kloreep, we need to know more information about your computer. Obtaining the video card information is a start, but we would prefer a full DxDiag.

Please try the steps in the FAQ linked below and post again with your full DxDiag if you continue to have an issue.

-Issy-

http://support.ea.co...hp?p_faqid=8703
http://support.ea.co...p?p_faqid=21325

Isledyr is an employee of Bioware, making one of the rare comments we seldom see from them in the Social Site's various Tech Forums.

mousestalker wrote...

Your post is not what I expected from the title. I approve this message whole heartedly.

One area of misunderstanding is the nasty habit video chip manufacturers have of assigning the same numbers to desktop and laptop video card chips. The 260 GTX is a different beast from the 260M GTX. The latter is significantly less capable. It's very deceptive and results in a fair number of laptop owners thinking they have a gaming laptop when they really don't.

I wasn't able to think of anything any better to call the discussion, which is paraphrased in parts from a pure-Intel-is-crap diatribe with a very similar topic line.  It fits in, however, with the pair of reminders, one on whether or not questions are already Frequently Asked, and therefore easily answered using Search, and the please include enough information to allow us to answer you reminder. 

When I was doing a lot more commuting from one classroom to another, and having to share very restricted space as an "office", I kept trying to use the laptops of the day, which were almost as heavy as the early "Luggable" type of portable PC, and dispaired of ever reaching the desktop replacement stage.  Quite a few years back, now, when the "notebook" size laptops were new, I got my last one, which I still have and use, but never for games.  I've never considered gaming as something not worth giving the developers a chance to strut their stuff on. 

I would be equally nonplussed when it comes to misrepresented mobile GPU naming.  I haven't made efforts to remain current on laptop graphics, and don't consider adding them to the shader performance rankings articles as worthwhile. 

P. S. (Added in Edit Mode.) I realized later that it wasn't clear that I spent several very enjoyable years at the end of being professionally employed in the IT area for 35 years, as a computing subjects instructor in college, but with a Bachelors' degree and therefore never being awarded tenure.  I was considered "temporary staff" and they had no fixed desk space for the several of us in that group to call our own. 

Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 07 octobre 2010 - 11:55 .


#5
Gorath Alpha

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I wanted an existing message thread to discuss Intel's upcoming Sandy Bridge, and AMD's Fusion APUs.

I'm not sure yet that this is the right one, however, so I'll keep a copy, and if you read the same material again some day, it will be because I did fins a thread I thought was a better one to add this onto. 

This week is Intel's annual conference and Pep Show (IDF), and they are showing some hardware that is still mostly a year off in the future.  The current IGPs housed within the package with the i3 and i5 processors are not integrated with the CPUs, just hitchhiking a ride (some i7s seem to also have such graphics included).  Because they share some things, and because Intel did tweak the design somewhat, they are the best that Intel has ever sold for video. 

That doesn't mean that they are good enough for Mass Effect 1 or 2, or Dragon Age: Origins, far from it.  AMD is far better at producing usable gaming graphics than Intel, but their HD 4200 isn't good enough for these games, although it's "closer" to it than Intel, by quite a good way.  nVIDIA has never exerted much effort toward IGPs, and Intel now has caught up to the Geforce 9200, but nVIDIA is making a serious run at Intel's dominance of laptop video, and not competing with AMD too strongly for Chipset space.

In the next couple of months, the first of AMD's fully integrated CPU plus graphics "APUs" will be available for Netbooks, low end notebooks, and mini-ITX applications.  It is far better at graphics than what Intel offers, and at least as good as what nVIDIA is discussing for that market.  There will be more "Fusion" chips coming out during 2011, and Intel needed to show that they had a counterattack in the wings. 

Sandy Bridge will be Intel's version of something similar, but not seemingly fully competitive for game playing on the systems that the first Fusion chips will be intended for.  It will be months after AMD has several of their APUs selling in several computer segments before Sandy Bridge is available.  It will be the best yet from Intel, whether finally "good enough" to do much with, that will remain to be seen.


Gorath

Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 14 septembre 2010 - 03:09 .


#6
Gorath Alpha

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I've had occasion to comment in the DAO PC Tech Forum about the infrequent premature deterioration in systems not designed for game play, but used for it anyway, and looked this article up as a result.

Okay then so the specs for my computer are as following.

Processor: AMD Athlon Processor TF-20 1.60 GHz
RAM: 3.00 Gb (2.75 usable)
Graphics Card:ATI Radeon HD3200 Graphics
OS:Windows 7 Home Premium

Now you don't have to tell me that my graphics card is a piece of crap and I'm lucky that I was able to run the game in the first place.


His system is one of those that has been damaged by the excessive stress of playing a game on such a low quality PC.  Anyway, the situation on AMD's Fusion and Intel's Sandy Bridge has changed since the comments immediately above this post in my thread were added.

Neither Global nor TMSD were able to get their next fabrication down-step on schedule.  TMSD gave up on getting a 32 nm fab into production, and is working on 28 nm instead.  As a result, neither AMD's Bulldozer CPUs, nor the GPUs for the late 2010 planned releases had been produced as designed (we are getting upgrades, but only the HD 6900 cards are {were, when I wrote this comment} based on the newest architectures).  The small form-factor NetBook, and NetTop systems' APUs are now available, and are really exciting, if you are interested in that level of computing. 

Sandy Bridge is available, and the CPU side of that equation is a large jump upward in performance (and is power which game players won't need until the console game systems have an EoL cycle and start over again with a new generation).  The graphics side is essentially more of the same that we've seen with the piggy-backed Intel graphics in the i3, i5, and i7 multi-cored processors. 

I suspect that Sandy Bridge won't do much to change the situation that this message thread covers, but I'm holding onto my desire to see if the Fusion APUs for the popular laptop market make a real difference. 

The Llano APU has seen the light of day, and the Brazos has been very successful so far (it is June 14, 2011, as I edit my comment)  Global has gotten their 32 nm plant running. 

www.dailytech.com/AMD+Ships+Llano+ASeries+Looks+to+Punish+Intel+on+the+Budget+End/article21898.htm

Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 18 août 2011 - 02:50 .


#7
Diablo King

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AMD Phenom II Quadcore 945. 'Nuff said.

#8
Gorath Alpha

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We have a new arrival complaining that his/her laptop overheats too much when playing DAO. It's going to be worse before long; it's just not designed for gaming, that's all.

http://social.biowar...27745/1#8138658

And here's someone else, this time with a graphics card below minimum, which he's been running at high settings, and now it's failing, from the overstress situation it's been put through:

http://social.biowar...10006/5#8131112

Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 18 août 2011 - 05:51 .


#9
Gorath Alpha

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First off, the average laptop only has an integrated video solution. There is no official support for those, and I agree that there should not be any. This is most particularly true for INTEL's quarter-power bad excuses for video.

Second, even when the laptop producer included a discrete CARD, the laptop versions are frequently underpowered, misnamed versions, and the total cooling capacity of almost all laptops is quite poor. They will overheat, and it's not the "game's fault" at all. They are simply not designed to game with, unless you purchase additional hardware to enhance the ability of the laptop to cool itself.

Social's forums have mostly been in the doldrums, with the exception of ME3 (release date roughly six weeks out now). Both of the older sequels' Tech Forums have had new members coming in to complain about how badly their laptops are working. nVIDIA laptop cards' drivers are still not locking Intel's onboard chips out properly, so instead of the real card, the laptops with Optimus GPUs keep crashing because the Geforce card isn't running.

DA2 is still running very slow, but I see new people in here lately, including some with Intel video instead of the real thing. Be aware that the Intel Corp doesn't CARE about you or games, generally. Their products are five years behind the times, and won't be at a 2008 / 2009 level of capability until after the industry has already moved on.

Last, this message thread is no open invitation to any kind of argument about why I am not going to offer support myself for Intel. This is a system requirements discussion, and the driver problems of discrete AMD / nVIDIA gaming cards are something we will remain interested in, but not Intel's drivers.

#10
Luxwing

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Wanting to play a graphically demanding computer game on a regular laptop has always been something that causes me to tilt my head to one side in confusion, especially when those that wish so cry when their precious hard drives melt. Mind you, I may play on a semi-budget card, but I play on a good old desktop computer, which has a grand supply of fans and a motherboard that doesn't even break a sweat until I spawn 50 dragons in Skyrim (on high).

Honestly, an older game such a DA:O is rather easy to play on even some of the cheaper cards. It's when people start eying the newest games and cry when their 2 year old computer they got at walmart won't stay awake for it that makes me cringe. It boils down to this: DO YOUR RESEARCH. For instance: when I bought my computer in August, I knew I wanted to get Skyrim. Hence, I found a card that would handle it but still stayed within my wallet limitations. And, ta-dah, I can play it 30fps no problem. (Of course, this comes from experience when I tried to make The Sims run on my mother's old ME way back when. Harsh lessons, but lessons nonetheless.)

Another problem is that everyone wants a laptop nowadays. They all believe mobility is the king today. While this may be true if you want to update Facebook or tweet something, this is not necissarily so for computer gaming, at least not quite yet. Yes, there are laptops made especially for gaming and, if you have the cash for it, that is what you should get. BUT, buying a laptop that is good for microsoft, internet and movies is not the same as buying one that is good for gaming. I've had this discussion with many people and yet find myself suprised they did not realise this everytime.

I hear your words, brother. The answer everytime is "Research Required". The information is out there (hell, there's a website that will scan your system and tell you if you can play a game!), yet people do not understand why their computer cannot play a game that just came out or one that is graphically demanding. Either that, or it CAN handle a game on low, but they demand that they play it on high. <_<

Whew. *hops off soap box*

Modifié par Luxwing, 21 janvier 2012 - 08:21 .


#11
Gorath Alpha

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There are two relatively well known sites as per your very last paragraph. The best known is merely a very bad joke to the gaming community. SR Labs ("Can you Run it") is wrong so often, no one should waste time there.

On the other hand, while it is far from perfect, the Game-o-meter at YouGamer is an order of magnitude better than SR Labs is.

Thank you for your comments. They are to the point. What is really sad is that many of the dimbulbs buying the cheap laptops that are useless for games are getting rid of usable desktops that are easily upgraded.

(Reminder) As always for a thread such as this, specific game problems are off topic. The subject is System Requirements.

#12
Luxwing

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Gorath Alpha wrote...

There are two relatively well known sites as per your very last paragraph. The best known is merely a very bad joke to the gaming community. SR Labs ("Can you Run it") is wrong so often, no one should waste time there.

On the other hand, while it is far from perfect, the Game-o-meter at YouGamer is an order of magnitude better than SR Labs is.


Of course, they could always read the backs of the boxes. I know that GPUs can be hard to buy for games (like which numbers are better), but there are more comparison charts for these than you can swing a bat at. Again, it boils down to people not, as they say, "Googling it". It really is that easy.

What is really sad is that many of the dimbulbs buying the cheap laptops that are useless for games are getting rid of usable desktops that are easily upgraded.


THIS. *weeps for humanity* You'd be amazed at all the great rigs that are just sitting in Goodwill crying "Upgrade me!" I don't think I will ever get a laptop. I enjoy my desktop too much. And, honestly, I have no urge to go sit at Starbucks and play Elder Scrolls. Strange, I know. :lol:

(Not to mention, just looking at a computer causes me to do this thing where I take it about with my eyes. I've seriously learned more about computers in the past year than I probably ever would have had the computer repair service I recieved on my last computer not been the most irritating, infuriating, depressing experience in my life...but, 'tis another story. ^_^ )

#13
Gorath Alpha

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Dragon Age: Origins has *NOT" been patched since its release to water down the graphics for Intel's poor excuses for video to be supported. The very latest "Ivy Bridge" isn't enough better than the Sandy Bridge to use it for games, either. These are being sold in both laptops and desktops, without being came-capable.

Brand-new desktops, with a proper GPU, and verification that the power supply is adequate, can be easily upgraded. Laptops cannot be upgraded in similar fashion, and given their very poor cooling capacity, those with Intel's cheap video are being progressively degraded every time a wannabe gamer loads a game into such hardware.

Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 02 juin 2012 - 08:53 .