15 réponses à ce sujet

[Brockololly]

Didn't see this posted anywhere here yet, so here it is: http://www.1up.com/d...age?cId=3180562

Like it or not, BioWare, it seems the impression DA2 is giving off is that its an over the top, simplified hack-n-slash.

A couple quotes from the article:

Most of the demo was spent explaining the evolution process of Dragon Age: Origins to that of Dragon Age 2, in that the team paid attention to reviews,  and listened to focus groups to get feedback on what worked and what didn't. Apparently a lot of the complaints revolved around the combat,  and BioWare took notes to evolve Dragon Age 2 into what it is currently  shaping up to be... a much more combat driven action game. So much for  the rebirth of the Western RPG.

Yes, one of the big changes for Dragon Age 2 is that the combat has been revamped (or stripped back, depending on how you look at it) -- turning it into a much more hack-n-slash type of game when playing as a Knight. This is all done through a closer third-person perspective than the  first game; think Ninja Gaiden, and how you hacked through dozens of enemies, blood spilling everywhere -- now replace ninjas with darkspawn, and you have the basic idea  behind DA2.

Another thing that was shown was the "new" art style. I couldn't notice  anything that radically different from the first Dragon Age, although it was explained that a lot of work went into making sure the game looked  and played the same across each of the platforms. So I guess this means  the developers have simplified it away from what made the original so  enduring to PC gamers? Or maybe they were talking about how the  interface of the game has changed to be much more simplified -- the only things displayed on screen are your party's health and mana in the  lower left, and since the Xbox 360 version was being demoed, the cycle of powers is still in the lower right. 

Thoughts? I'm waiting to see some PC gameplay- if the PC version truly is going to "look and play the same" as the console versions, I've got a HUGE problem with that...

Modifié par Brockololly, 24 juillet 2010 - 12:37 .

[Bruce Venne]

Kordaris wrote...

Calla S wrote...

I don't care about personality of peasant named Hawke, and neither do I care about his peasant sister.

Aw, you made Bethany cry   Just don't make her angry, she is a mage.

Don't be so quick to dismiss the Hawkes.  You will still be able to shape your Hawke into the type of hero you want them to be.  And you will care about Bethany.  Trust me.  And if you don't trust me, then trust the writers.  They are doing an amazing job with this story.

[Bruce Venne]

fchopin wrote...

Bruce Venne wrote...

Kordaris wrote...

Calla S wrote...

I don't care about personality of peasant named Hawke, and neither do I care about his peasant sister.

Aw, you made Bethany cry   Just don't make her angry, she is a mage.

Don't be so quick to dismiss the Hawkes.  You will still be able to shape your Hawke into the type of hero you want them to be.  And you will care about Bethany.  Trust me.  And if you don't trust me, then trust the writers.  They are doing an amazing job with this story.

Does Bethany change depending how we shape Hawke or does she have a set character?

Your actions will affect your Followers,

[Bruce Venne]

Lyssistr wrote...

Bruce Venne wrote...

Kordaris wrote...

Calla S wrote...

I don't care about personality of peasant named Hawke, and neither do I care about his peasant sister.

Aw, you made Bethany cry   Just don't make her angry, she is a mage.

Don't be so quick to dismiss the Hawkes.  You will still be able to shape your Hawke into the type of hero you want them to be.  And you will care about Bethany.  Trust me.  And if you don't trust me, then trust the writers.  They are doing an amazing job with this story.

I think the real question is if this is a hack & slash game, as claimed by the 1UP previewer. More specifically if it hack slash for all versions of DA2 (PC/console) or it's just that the console part that 1UP previewer played was easy enough to be hack & slashed, not requiring any micromanagement at all - but still boss fights need to be micromanaged & all that.

I very much liked all changes so far and have defended them in every single thread. However, if this is indeed a hack & slash game, you need to be honest about it and say so. If it isn't, considering previewers - who actually played a bit of the game, find it hack & slash, you need to argue why the picture they saw is partial and not representative of DA2. Personally, considering Diablo III is out soon, I'm not interested in another fantasy hack & slash game.

I think it's reasonable to ask if DA2 is or isn't hack & slash and clarifying so is honest advertising.

The combat presented in the demo is an exaggerated fight.  The reason for it is story-driven.
We want DA2 to have faster, more responsive combat but DA2 will also have the kind of deep, rich and engaging story that BioWare has put into all of your other games.  We are improving the combat, but not at the expense of the story.

[David Gaider]

Lyssistr wrote...
Noone's saying it will be bad, the question is not bad or good. Here, the question is if it's hack & slash or not. It's something that needs to be clarified, else it may simply not being honestly advertised.

I'm not certain about the "hack & slash" term, myself. That's one of those loaded terms that tends to apply to games that are light on story and heavy on action-based twitch mechanics, after all, and tends to mean different things to different people.

The action is quicker in DA2 and the controls are designed to be more responsive-- you input a command and something happens immediately. Which is not to say that you're furiously pounding the action button to cue every swing, but simply that the delays caused by animation sequences and "getting into position" are less than they were in DAO. Is that "hack & slash"? You tell me. In some respects you could extend that same appellation to DAO.

Was the combat we showed in the demo over the top? Certainly. As we've mentioned elsewhere, that part of the tale is a brief glimpse at the "exaggerated" legend of Hawke-- he kills monsters with a single stroke, slicing each one in two with a single slice of his sword, and farts lightning bolts out of his ass. Is the whole game like that? Certainly not-- that's simply part of the set-up.

Is it fair for a viewer to say the action was over the top, considering that's all we showed them? Sure. There's plenty more for us to show in the future, I doubt we're really worried about it. This is what we wanted to show right now-- a peek at an early action sequence, something that gave a glimpse at how it's more responsive and visceral, as well as a look at the new art style and the mechanical changes of a single, simple dialogue with the voiced PC.

Is that not what everyone wanted to see? Maybe so. Like I said, I doubt we're really worried about it, considering there's many months left to go. There's still a lot more to show, like "regular" combat and a look at the story, all stuff I'm sure folks who hang out here would be interested to hear more about.  Some people who were here prior to Origins release might probably be experiencing a bit of déjà vu, considering the agonized twistings the forum community went through after every release of information-- which is not to say that DA2 is secretly everything someone here hoped and dreamed it would be, no, simply that you're not seeing the complete picture just yet. Because we're not showing the complete picture just yet. It'll come.

Until then, carry on.

Modifié par David Gaider, 24 juillet 2010 - 08:12 .

[David Gaider]

AntiChri5 wrote...
It has been confirmed there are more than three choices on the wheel.

Besides which, there were never more than six options in Origins.

That suggestion is absurd and you know it.

Incidentally, for those who bring up the three oft-mentioned tones indicated by the icons I can safely say-- having been one of the people involved in the writing-- that there were rarely more than three different tones in Origins conversation options as well.

On those cases where you had more than three response options in Origins it was generally a case of you either asking questions (as in the Investigate hub we have now) or choosing actions. As has been already mentioned, we still have the ability to express the exact same number of options here-- in fact, we have more. In Origins we were limited to six responses which included both tones and questions.

Indeed, when we needed to have a lot of questions, we'd often have to go to a seperate "investigate hub". My, weren't those grand?

"What did you want to know?"
Player asks a question, which is answered.
"Anything else you wanted to ask?"
Player declines.
"Now-- what did you want to do about that original thing I asked about?"

Let's not go back to that again, shall we?

Now we're allowed more responses: up to five options on the regular wheel and up to five more on the investigate wheel.

If you thought those six options in Origins allowed you more ways to express yourself than were actually there, that's great-- I'll take that as a compliment to the writing team. We always try to accomodate the different responses that a player might want to make. But other than the fact that your lines are spoken in VO (which some people don't like as a rule) and the fact that you have paraphrases instead of full sentences to choose from (hopefully mitigated by the intent icons) there is functionally no difference between the two dialogue systems. We are not limited to providing less options. Period. In fact, in exchange for the two things I listed we also get access to some handy ways to allow you to determine the way you express yourself better than Origins.

I get that you people haven't seen this yet, and for the moment your only point of comparison is Mass Effect, but Dragon Age is not Mass Effect and the writers who provided you those options you liked so much in Origins are the exact same writers here. Perhaps that's little comfort until you do see evidence for yourself, and that's cool, but let's not go conjuring imaginary problems just yet.

Modifié par David Gaider, 24 juillet 2010 - 11:38 .

[David Gaider]

derkaderka- wrote...
well, unless you make it an option to listen to each voice option before moving on, then there is your distinct difference. i hate referring to mass effect, but once you choose an option in that wheel you are dedicated to it, locked in. the only way to change your mind is to reload your game religiously. for mass effect i nver cared to because the writing was so bad. but dao writing is so good i feel i am going to miss the major part of the game if i am robbed of seeing the other options.. in dao you can see it all laid out and you choose.

No offense, but if you can't decide between the options presented based on a brief sentence and an icon to clarify intent, not liking the actual wording isn't going to make those other options different. As it is, I already indicated that the paraphrases are one of the two primary differences between the systems. What I was addressing was the idea that the dialogue wheel required there to be less options in DAO-- which is simply not true.

[David Gaider]

fchopin wrote...
Can you post a diagram image of how the dialogue wheel works with arrows on the directions ( back, forward) that are possible so we can define the possibilities, or is it not permitted?

I don't have a diagram to post, sorry, but you have six spokes on the wheel: NW, W, SW, SE, E, NE.

On the "regular" wheel you have the W spoke reserved for Investigate (if there are any Investigates on that node). Selecting it flips you over to the "investigate" wheel, where you have the same number of spokes and E is reserved for Return-- which brings you back to the regular wheel. A built-in investigate hub, if you will, without the need for awkward dialogue transitions.

[David Gaider]

Brockololly wrote...
I was just thinking more along the lines of being able to clearly read all the lines in DAO before choosing- meaning, there were some funny or nasty responses you could see in the dialogue choices for Origins but you were able to appreciate them even if you didn't choose them. With the wheel, you won't have that ability to see what Hawke says exactly or does without committing to the choice.

Ah, I see. Yes, that is indeed true. If you just want to appreciate the full line you do indeed have to select the option.

But I'm just curious about the icons- are there a lot of them? More specifically, are they all fairly intuitive as to what they mean in the context of the paraphrase? I know its been brought up before, but an angry red fist isn't exactly clear if that means "I'm going to talk angrily!" or "WAAAH! I'm going to punch this old lady in the FACE!" Or will I clearly know what the friendly snarky response is versus the jerk-face response given the icons and blurbs?

It wouldn't make much sense to have a whole lot of icons-- they have to be pretty distinctive from each other so you can intuit their meaning without a guide. As to your specific example, there is indeed an "I attack" icon separate from the "I'm aggressive" icon. The first time you see it, I imagine you'll tell the difference. I won't go more into the icons themselves, however, until we talk more about what they represent and how the tones affect the rest of the dialogue in the game.

[David Gaider]

joriandrake wrote...
would be easier to release a video of a long dialogue

I quite agree! We will, without a doubt, do that in time. I know you guys want to know everything right now but I don't think marketing has ever worked that way for any game.

[David Gaider]

joriandrake wrote...
It would be n ice to atleast give something to the media that is SURE to be recieved positive by fans, because until now marketing is just a bloody massacre

I don't think I've ever seen any kind of marketing that was received well by the hardcore fans unless it was directed specifically at them and essentially of interest to nobody else. You guys don't want to hear the basics. You already know the basics. You want to move right onto the nitty-gritty stuff. We get that, but I really doubt we'll lead in with that stuff, you know?

Modifié par David Gaider, 25 juillet 2010 - 12:32 .

[David Gaider]

Kordaris wrote...
I am surprised you don't see why people reacted so strongly to limiting their choices of playable characters to one in direct contradiction what we have seen in DAO. This is was a total remake of  excellent game we experienced before

Err... yes? Some people do indeed react strongly-- and maybe in the end the sequel's not for them. We have reasons for the changes we made, however, and we don't believe that automatically makes DA2 a lesser game. At this point, I don't think there's a lot of information to go by unless there mere fact of those changes is enough to make up your mind and there's nothing that could possibly be good without them-- in which case there's not much for us to talk about, is there?

Frankly the reaction would be quite different if from the beginning of DAO we would be informed that the next game will not feature the Origins system.

So... you would have liked us to see into the future and warn people that a feature which had complete relevance to the game they're playing might not appear in a future game that they know nothing about yet? To what end?

[David Gaider]

tmp7704 wrote...
Please don't take it wrong way, but the idea of having a command on one side of the wheel to enter the investigation but then having to use command on opposite side to exit sounds rather awkward as far as UI is concerned. (there's both unnecessary movement involved if you're just taking glance at these options, and it can get potentially confusing when a spot in the interface sometimes is an action but sometimes it's just a switch depending on which mode you're on which isn't guaranteed to be very evident, i'd imagime)

Did you by chance try to experiment with putting the switch "back" in the same spot the original command to switch to investigation is placed, so it becomes essentially a toggle? Bonus advantage to that would be, such toggle can be then converted to a distinct, fixed button so it's even more obvious clicking on it does something different than making the character speak out a line.

not trying to do your work there, but just a thought.

Yes, actually, we tried several different ways. This is, in fact, quite intuitive for most people... you "move" into the investigate wheel and then you "move back" in the opposite direction.

[David Gaider]

MonkMorkins wrote...
David, you can correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it pretty much said that DA:O was just the introduction to the world and that later titles would tell different stories in this world?

You're not wrong.

Mechanically, the origin stories also played a very important role of allowing you to give out masses of lore very quickly without needing to set up an exposition that just says "Yo, here is everything that you need to know about the world.  Blam.  Enjoy this meaty lore sandwich."  Because, honestly, that would have lost a LOT of people..

Yes-- Origins introduced a world that nobody knew about. Easy to forget, but while there are many things recognizeable about Thedas there are also a bunch of key differences. We don't need to introduce the very concept of the world the same way now. This doesn't mean we'll never revisit the idea of origin stories in the future, just that their mechanical requirement as an IP introduction is not quite the same anymore. Certainly if we tell stories that would benefit from having multiple beginnings I doubt we'd hesitate.

[David Gaider]

Passivehate wrote...
Though I have a query that needs answering. Are these changes, such as the VO and dialog wheel things that will be present in all future games? Or is the answer based on how well DA2 is received?

We're not locked into anything. If people-- and by that I mean all people, not just the ones who hang out on these forums-- really dislike our changes then the game will do poorly and we will have to go back to the drawing board. Even if it does well, however (as DAO did), doesn't preclude the possibility that we will want to experiment and iterate on what we thought worked and what didn't.

In addition, Mr. Gaider, have you ever had the pleasure of playing Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne? I found it to be the closest thing to poetry that I've found in the world of gaming. As such, I'd be curious as to your opinion.

I played Persona 3, but I don't think that's the one you're referring to. There are certain aspects of storytelling in JRPG's that I have difficulty getting past (primarily the ubiquitous juvenile hero, but there are other things as well) that make it hard for me to enjoy such a game. That said, I thought it did some things quite well. That's probably not Nocturne, but unless it's radically different from Persona 3 I don't think I'd try it again.

Modifié par David Gaider, 25 juillet 2010 - 01:39 .

[David Gaider]

Kordaris wrote...
Certainly many people believe by now that choosing elf or dwarf and person of non-Hawk surname would benefit their gameplay experience.

People believe that cloaks and horses would benefit their gameplay experience, too. It doesn't necessarily mean they're going to get them.