535 réponses à ce sujet

[AntiChri5]

derkaderka- wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

dragon_83 wrote...

AntiChri5

derkaderka- wrote...

but the dao chat wasn't broke, so don't fix it. reading the options out completely before choosing lets you see the possible scenarios to come for each choice path. you get to choose which path best fits your personality, goals, values, etc.

Yes, it was. There was no way to know whether a line was a simple question or would progress the conversation. There was no way to discern tone. I still dont know which of the "har har you is old" lines you can say to Wynne are good natured, friendly jibes and which are open insults.

DAO's conversation system was not broke. But the system of ME is a dumbed down system. You see what is paragon, what is renegade and what is natural. It is black and white. In DAO, there are answers which are not black and white, so you, the player had to interpret it. You had to think about it. This just shows that DAO was a more complex RPG, than ME. But good for you, the second one won't be.

DA: O conversation system was flawed, deeply so, for the reasons i listed.

We know that DA 2 has no morality system, so there is still just as much left open to interpretation.

dragon 83 is right on. the simplicity of mass effect good/bad is so unimaginitive. 1-5 words do not give you a clue what the next conversation will be. in mass effect you know which response will net you an xp gain in either paragon/renegade. there's nothing interesting about chat when you're just chasing xp for your lame meter.

Exaggerating. There was usually more than five. If thats how you play then thats how you play. Its not how i play, i roleplay and make decisions based on my characters personality.

derkaderka- wrote...

even if da2 doesn't use the stupid xp meter, the wheel is fundamentally flawed still. in mass effect you could pick a chat option, hoping you knew what shepard would say, but then shepard will go nuts on you and say a bunch of extra stuff that wasn't even mentioned in your choice. full chat in text is the way to go.

that is a way in which you found the implementation of a dialouge wheel flawed in Mass Effect. Dragon Age has a different team of writers.

derkaderka- wrote...

even if the new wheel gives you an idea of your tone, that doesn't tell you where that tone is directed, with what morales, values, etc. full chat will tell you what you need to know before making that choice.

Which is what the paraphrase is for. There are two indications, one will tell me the general gist of what Hawke says, the other his attitude. Whether he is being aggresive, sympathetic whatever. With Origins system there is no indication of tone whatsoever.

derkaderka- wrote...

*******
as for your problems not figuring out how people would react to your choices in dao, that is a result of you not paying attention to detail (a crucial part of an rpg). there are indications in the game that let you know each companion has its own personality, and it is your job to figure out how to communicate with their good side. if all else fail, use the wiki. dao chat is not flawed. do your homework and you won't upset the npc's with the wrong attitude. if you know the npc, and you can comprehend dialogue then you should get an idea how the npc is going to react.

I pay a great deal of attention, in fact. No amount of paying attention will help you, however, when you have not been presented with any information. When you first recruit Wynne, when you dispel the barrier you can make references to her age in a way that could be a friendly jibe or an outright insult. There is no indication of which. Suggesting that i "do my homework" and look the conversations up is absurd. I might as well say "look up what Shepard says in ME" In either case, the system has failed.

derkaderka- wrote...

the problem with the mass effect wheel is that you can't even tell how your own character is going to react. fundamental flaw for an rpg game.

One i never experienced. I was always able to tell what Shepard was going to do. That that was a problem for you i will not dispute, since it is all up to interpretation. From reading many other peoples comments, i have found out that this was a problem for quite a few, so yes that was a flaw in Mass effects convrsation system. I said so myself earlier.

[AntiChri5]

dragon_83 wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

dragon_83 wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...



I see the simple list as a somewhat antiquated method which is holding us back as much as anything.

I still can't see why is the list method holding us back. It shows your character's exact answer, and not just a hint about what the character is about to say. Is it really that boring or hard to read 5 sentences? If we are heading in this direction, the next conversation system won't feature words at all. Just 3 icons. One for the good answer, one for the evil and one for the natural.

Because it was dis......

Hang on.... i have said this all before, havent i?

Look up. My reasons are all there.

Besides which, THERE IS NO MORALITY SYSTEM IN DA 2.

Please, memorise that part.

Don't try to insult me, it is only going to get the thread locked.

Ok, there won't be a morality system. I'm sorry, let me edit my answer:
If we are heading in this direction, the next conversation system won't
feature words at all. Just 3 icons. One for the agressive answer, one for
the joking and one for the romantic. Happy?

It has been confirmed there are more than three choices on the wheel.

Besides which, there were never more than six options in Origins.

That suggestion is absurd and you know it.

[derkaderka-]

AntiChri5 wrote...

derkaderka- wrote...

even if the new wheel gives you an idea of your tone, that doesn't tell you where that tone is directed, with what morales, values, etc. full chat will tell you what you need to know before making that choice.

Which is what the paraphrase is for. There are two indications, one will tell me the general gist of what Hawke says, the other his attitude. Whether he is being aggresive, sympathetic whatever. With Origins system there is no indication of tone whatsoever.

derkaderka- wrote...

*******
as for your problems not figuring out how people would react to your choices in dao, that is a result of you not paying attention to detail (a crucial part of an rpg). there are indications in the game that let you know each companion has its own personality, and it is your job to figure out how to communicate with their good side. if all else fail, use the wiki. dao chat is not flawed. do your homework and you won't upset the npc's with the wrong attitude. if you know the npc, and you can comprehend dialogue then you should get an idea how the npc is going to react.

I pay a great deal of attention, in fact. No amount of paying attention will help you, however, when you have not been presented with any information. When you first recruit Wynne, when you dispel the barrier you can make references to her age in a way that could be a friendly jibe or an outright insult. There is no indication of which. Suggesting that i "do my homework" and look the conversations up is absurd. I might as well say "look up what Shepard says in ME" In either case, the system has failed.

derkaderka- wrote...

the problem with the mass effect wheel is that you can't even tell how your own character is going to react. fundamental flaw for an rpg game.

One i never experienced. I was always able to tell what Shepard was going to do. That that was a problem for you i will not dispute, since it is all up to interpretation. From reading many other peoples comments, i have found out that this was a problem for quite a few, so yes that was a flaw in Mass effects convrsation system. I said so myself earlier.

you say dao chat has no tone? or you just have no sense of human social skills. why would you think an old woman would appreciate you cracking jokes about her age when she is a complete stranger to you at that point?  you aren't old friends.

to say you knew what shepard would say every time you chose a chat option is a plain lie. we could pull up quotes all night long of the paraphrases that don't match the resulting voice conversation. plus the options are completely lame. good luck trying to keep shepard from coming off as a total laughing pushover or an embarrassing prejudiced idiot several times throughout the game. i know they are different writers but still, the wheel is a lazy design. new writers can't change that. because shepards personality is in the writers' hands, not yours. hawke will be the same. da2 will suffer. full text at least allows you to find the response that best fits the story you want written. but god forbid we preserve the rpg elements of an rpg game.

even if theparaphrasing in da2 turns out the be extremely well done, it still takes away the major rpg element (in an rpg game) in favor of dumbing down the process for gamers that are not fans of the genre, hence catering to the wrong audience. you don't take rpg of the decade and turn the franchise into action/adventure clone version 2.5.

[David Gaider]

AntiChri5 wrote...
It has been confirmed there are more than three choices on the wheel.

Besides which, there were never more than six options in Origins.

That suggestion is absurd and you know it.

Incidentally, for those who bring up the three oft-mentioned tones indicated by the icons I can safely say-- having been one of the people involved in the writing-- that there were rarely more than three different tones in Origins conversation options as well.

On those cases where you had more than three response options in Origins it was generally a case of you either asking questions (as in the Investigate hub we have now) or choosing actions. As has been already mentioned, we still have the ability to express the exact same number of options here-- in fact, we have more. In Origins we were limited to six responses which included both tones and questions.

Indeed, when we needed to have a lot of questions, we'd often have to go to a seperate "investigate hub". My, weren't those grand?

"What did you want to know?"
Player asks a question, which is answered.
"Anything else you wanted to ask?"
Player declines.
"Now-- what did you want to do about that original thing I asked about?"

Let's not go back to that again, shall we?

Now we're allowed more responses: up to five options on the regular wheel and up to five more on the investigate wheel.

If you thought those six options in Origins allowed you more ways to express yourself than were actually there, that's great-- I'll take that as a compliment to the writing team. We always try to accomodate the different responses that a player might want to make. But other than the fact that your lines are spoken in VO (which some people don't like as a rule) and the fact that you have paraphrases instead of full sentences to choose from (hopefully mitigated by the intent icons) there is functionally no difference between the two dialogue systems. We are not limited to providing less options. Period. In fact, in exchange for the two things I listed we also get access to some handy ways to allow you to determine the way you express yourself better than Origins.

I get that you people haven't seen this yet, and for the moment your only point of comparison is Mass Effect, but Dragon Age is not Mass Effect and the writers who provided you those options you liked so much in Origins are the exact same writers here. Perhaps that's little comfort until you do see evidence for yourself, and that's cool, but let's not go conjuring imaginary problems just yet.

Modifié par David Gaider, 24 juillet 2010 - 11:38 .

[joriandrake]

to be fair the variation in replies is already lower in DA1 than in BG or NWN1

Modifié par joriandrake, 24 juillet 2010 - 11:35 .

[Saraphial]

As of very recently I have decided not to make anymore assumptions about DA2 until I can actually play the game myself, since I am only making myself anxious about things that may be entirely wrong.



I have faith in you Bioware, don't let me down!



Although I must say, that "turning enemies into putty" spell sounds very interesting...

[derkaderka-]

David Gaider wrote...
If you thought those six options in Origins allowed you more ways to express yourself than were actually there, that's great-- I'll take that as a compliment to the writing team. We always try to accomodate the different responses that a player might want to make. But other than the fact that your lines are spoken in VO (which some people don't like as a rule) and the fact that you have paraphrases instead of full sentences to choose from (hopefully mitigated by the intent icons) there is functionally no difference between the two dialogue systems. We are not limited to providing less options. Period. In fact, in exchange for the two things I listed we also get access to some handy ways to allow you to determine the way you express yourself better than Origins.

well, unless you make it an option to listen to each voice option before moving on, then there is your distinct difference. i hate referring to mass effect, but once you choose an option in that wheel you are dedicated to it, locked in. the only way to change your mind is to reload your game religiously. for mass effect i nver cared to because the writing was so bad. but dao writing is so good i feel i am going to miss the major part of the game if i am robbed of seeing the other options.. in dao you can see it all laid out and you choose.

so maybe you bioware guys should think of an alternative to being locked into a chat choice before hearing it out. we shouldn't have to save and reload before every chat just to get the old rpg elements. its a major effing hassle and just stinks of bad design choice..

maybe you should give us a something in the functionality of a "back" button, allowing us to change our mind after hearing what hawke has to say... seriously. there is nothing good about being clueless about that "what if" of not knowing what would have been said if you chose the other chat option. dao doesn't have this problem. the wheel does and always will unless it gives subtitles for all options up front..

[FieryDove]

shepard_lives wrote...
I have nothing but faith in the writing team. They will not fail.

I agree with you there, best writing team ever. However, even the mighty pen cannot plug cannon holes in a ship that size.

pmaura wrote...
Its not that Bioware is evil its that bioware is not bioware anymore its EA and EA is a crap company

Well it's not all that bad. Someone with sense must still be there, after all they are selling out the huge share of UbiSoft.

[wickedwizzard01]

Saraphial wrote...

As of very recently I have decided not to make anymore assumptions about DA2 until I can actually play the game myself, since I am only making myself anxious about things that may be entirely wrong.

I have faith in you Bioware, don't let me down!

Although I must say, that "turning enemies into putty" spell sounds very interesting...

i guess i agree with you and have decided to do the same thing and i hope i will be pleasantly surprised 
with DA2 
initially i've been very sceptic on what was shown.
But by now i discovered some interesting things that really peaked my interest for DA2
i probably end up buying the game anyway

[David Gaider]

derkaderka- wrote...
well, unless you make it an option to listen to each voice option before moving on, then there is your distinct difference. i hate referring to mass effect, but once you choose an option in that wheel you are dedicated to it, locked in. the only way to change your mind is to reload your game religiously. for mass effect i nver cared to because the writing was so bad. but dao writing is so good i feel i am going to miss the major part of the game if i am robbed of seeing the other options.. in dao you can see it all laid out and you choose.

No offense, but if you can't decide between the options presented based on a brief sentence and an icon to clarify intent, not liking the actual wording isn't going to make those other options different. As it is, I already indicated that the paraphrases are one of the two primary differences between the systems. What I was addressing was the idea that the dialogue wheel required there to be less options in DAO-- which is simply not true.

[fchopin]

David Gaider wrote...
No offense, but if you can't decide between the options presented based on a brief sentence and an icon to clarify intent, not liking the actual wording isn't going to make those other options different. As it is, I already indicated that the paraphrases are one of the two primary differences between the systems. What I was addressing was the idea that the dialogue wheel required there to be less options in DAO-- which is simply not true.

Can you post a diagram image of how the dialogue wheel works with arrows on the directions ( back, forward) that are possible so we can define the possibilities, or is it not permitted?

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...
No offense, but if you can't decide between the options presented based on a brief sentence and an icon to clarify intent, not liking the actual wording isn't going to make those other options different. As it is, I already indicated that the paraphrases are one of the two primary differences between the systems. What I was addressing was the idea that the dialogue wheel required there to be less options in DAO-- which is simply not true.

I was just thinking more along the lines of being able to clearly read all the lines in DAO before choosing- meaning, there were some funny or nasty responses you could see in the dialogue choices for Origins but you were able to appreciate them even if you didn't choose them. With the wheel, you won't have that ability to see what Hawke says exactly or does without committing to the choice.

But I'm just curious about the icons- are there a lot of them? More specifically, are they all fairly intuitive as to what they mean in the context of the paraphrase? I know its been brought up before, but an angry red fist isn't exactly clear if that means "I'm going to talk angrily!" or "WAAAH! I'm going to punch this old lady in the FACE!" Or will I clearly know what the friendly snarky response is versus the jerk-face response given the icons and blurbs?

Modifié par Brockololly, 25 juillet 2010 - 12:19 .

[David Gaider]

fchopin wrote...
Can you post a diagram image of how the dialogue wheel works with arrows on the directions ( back, forward) that are possible so we can define the possibilities, or is it not permitted?

I don't have a diagram to post, sorry, but you have six spokes on the wheel: NW, W, SW, SE, E, NE.

On the "regular" wheel you have the W spoke reserved for Investigate (if there are any Investigates on that node). Selecting it flips you over to the "investigate" wheel, where you have the same number of spokes and E is reserved for Return-- which brings you back to the regular wheel. A built-in investigate hub, if you will, without the need for awkward dialogue transitions.

[Deviija]

Oh, I do, I do, I do hope there is facepunchings to Old Lady FACE in the game. But BioWare surely knows my love for facepunchings by now.

[joriandrake]

fchopin wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
No offense, but if you can't decide between the options presented based on a brief sentence and an icon to clarify intent, not liking the actual wording isn't going to make those other options different. As it is, I already indicated that the paraphrases are one of the two primary differences between the systems. What I was addressing was the idea that the dialogue wheel required there to be less options in DAO-- which is simply not true.

Can you post a diagram image of how the dialogue wheel works with arrows on the directions ( back, forward) that are possible so we can define the possibilities, or is it not permitted?

would be easier to release a video of a long dialogue

[David Gaider]

Brockololly wrote...
I was just thinking more along the lines of being able to clearly read all the lines in DAO before choosing- meaning, there were some funny or nasty responses you could see in the dialogue choices for Origins but you were able to appreciate them even if you didn't choose them. With the wheel, you won't have that ability to see what Hawke says exactly or does without committing to the choice.

Ah, I see. Yes, that is indeed true. If you just want to appreciate the full line you do indeed have to select the option.

But I'm just curious about the icons- are there a lot of them? More specifically, are they all fairly intuitive as to what they mean in the context of the paraphrase? I know its been brought up before, but an angry red fist isn't exactly clear if that means "I'm going to talk angrily!" or "WAAAH! I'm going to punch this old lady in the FACE!" Or will I clearly know what the friendly snarky response is versus the jerk-face response given the icons and blurbs?

It wouldn't make much sense to have a whole lot of icons-- they have to be pretty distinctive from each other so you can intuit their meaning without a guide. As to your specific example, there is indeed an "I attack" icon separate from the "I'm aggressive" icon. The first time you see it, I imagine you'll tell the difference. I won't go more into the icons themselves, however, until we talk more about what they represent and how the tones affect the rest of the dialogue in the game.

[Brockololly]

Deviija wrote...


Oh, I do, I do, I do hope there is facepunchings to Old Lady FACE in the game. But BioWare surely knows my love for facepunchings by now.

I'm wondering if we'll have a "Throw Murder Knife" option on the dialogue wheel? Or more specifically, will we be able to choose actions like that in DA2, or will that be hidden in with the blurb plus emotion icon? *edit: answered by Gaider above*

And I'm still wondering if we're going to have Cunning, Persuade, Intimidate or class Specific /Stat driven dialogue options- I sure hope so.

Modifié par Brockololly, 25 juillet 2010 - 12:27 .

[David Gaider]

joriandrake wrote...
would be easier to release a video of a long dialogue

I quite agree! We will, without a doubt, do that in time. I know you guys want to know everything right now but I don't think marketing has ever worked that way for any game.

[joriandrake]

David Gaider wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
I was just thinking more along the lines of being able to clearly read all the lines in DAO before choosing- meaning, there were some funny or nasty responses you could see in the dialogue choices for Origins but you were able to appreciate them even if you didn't choose them. With the wheel, you won't have that ability to see what Hawke says exactly or does without committing to the choice.

Ah, I see. Yes, that is indeed true. If you just want to appreciate the full line you do indeed have to select the option.

But I'm just curious about the icons- are there a lot of them? More specifically, are they all fairly intuitive as to what they mean in the context of the paraphrase? I know its been brought up before, but an angry red fist isn't exactly clear if that means "I'm going to talk angrily!" or "WAAAH! I'm going to punch this old lady in the FACE!" Or will I clearly know what the friendly snarky response is versus the jerk-face response given the icons and blurbs?

It wouldn't make much sense to have a whole lot of icons-- they have to be pretty distinctive from each other so you can intuit their meaning without a guide. As to your specific example, there is indeed an "I attack" icon separate from the "I'm aggressive" icon. The first time you see it, I imagine you'll tell the difference. I won't go more into the icons themselves, however, until we talk more about what they represent and how the tones affect the rest of the dialogue in the game.

Please, no matter what, don't take out the option to have subs written out despite english voice, I never play without that and I beleive I am not alone in this

[Silverfox4]

My concern is, if they are porting this from the Xbox to the PC. DAO was much better almost in every aspect on the PC. I know the combat system will remain mostly intact, but what about everything else? Will I get watered down graphics and others?

[joriandrake]

David Gaider wrote...

joriandrake wrote...
would be easier to release a video of a long dialogue

I quite agree! We will, without a doubt, do that in time. I know you guys want to know everything right now but I don't think marketing has ever worked that way for any game.

It would be n ice to atleast give something to the media that is SURE to be recieved positive by fans, because until now marketing is just a bloody massacre

[Cyanide Disaster]

David Gaider wrote...

I quite agree! We will, without a doubt, do that in time. I know you guys want to know everything right now but I don't think marketing has ever worked that way for any game.

 Because that'd be too easy. And we all know Human nature is to do quite the opposite to confuse ourselves and each other for the spite of it. :3

[David Gaider]

joriandrake wrote...
It would be n ice to atleast give something to the media that is SURE to be recieved positive by fans, because until now marketing is just a bloody massacre

I don't think I've ever seen any kind of marketing that was received well by the hardcore fans unless it was directed specifically at them and essentially of interest to nobody else. You guys don't want to hear the basics. You already know the basics. You want to move right onto the nitty-gritty stuff. We get that, but I really doubt we'll lead in with that stuff, you know?

Modifié par David Gaider, 25 juillet 2010 - 12:32 .

[FieryDove]

David Gaider wrote...

joriandrake wrote...
would be easier to release a video of a long dialogue

I quite agree! We will, without a doubt, do that in time. I know you guys want to know everything right now but I don't think marketing has ever worked that way for any game.

Bribe them...I'll add in cookies and brownies for pc gameplay/combat demo + an in-game conversation the reviewers can rant or rave about.

Is marketing the one's who will let us know who is doing the voice work also? I think many would really like to know or maybe just me...lol

[joriandrake]

David Gaider wrote...

joriandrake wrote...
It would be n ice to atleast give something to the media that is SURE to be recieved positive by fans, because until now marketing is just a bloody massacre

I don't think I've ever seen any kind of marketing that was received well by the hardcore fans unless it was directed specifically at them and essentially of interest to nobody else. You guys don't want to hear the basics. You already know the basics. You want to move right onto the nitty-gritty stuff. We get that, but I really doubt we'll lead in with that stuff, you know?

if you mean by "nitty-gritty" some more info on costumization, if clothes are now seperate from armor, if you can recolor/costumize them ingame, if the character can have a house or castle, or if he can have his own Coat of Arms and perhaps some army to do stuff with like patrolling, then yes, I want to move right onto it.

In the recent years even non-RPG's like Saint's Row 2 realized the demand and necessarity of costumization, and for RPG players it is obvious they want these to be better and more variable in RPG-s, from where costumization originates from to begin with.

If Hawke is really playing through 10 years there is enough time to create a settlement from scratch and build a cstle and see it flourish as example, to see the surroundings and power balance change.

Modifié par joriandrake, 25 juillet 2010 - 12:38 .