132 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Kordaris wrote...

Good to
know the Witcher isn't an RPG (must be a male with fixed name)

Ughhh
how I dislike the pompous Witcher. But this is a specific case about a
game based on a specific character already written about in a book(only
the short stories are good though).

So you agree it wasn't an RPG and that Bloodlines also was not an RPG?

joriandrake wrote...

the issue is that there was no first game in which character costumization existed and was in the sequel taken out, because of this both your examples are wrong

It doesn't matter. His claim was that racial customization, name customization and class costumization jointly make an RPG. In other words, he said the three are jointly neccesary conditions to be an RPG. Since the Witcher and Bloodlines lack these features, they must by definition not be RPGs.

I'm pointing out the definition is stupid. Feel free to like DA2 or hate it, but at the very least be logically consistent.

Querne wrote...
No. My peasent Cousland was reknown as
such.

No. Your Cousland was called "Warden."  You were recognized as a noble very rarely, and only by the Banns. Otherwise you were treated as a peasant. So there was no difference in game.

Modifié par In Exile, 24 juillet 2010 - 11:32 .

[In Exile]

Querne wrote...
Witcher is based on a book about.. guess yourself.
Wonder why we could choose anything but beeing a Dragon in Dragon Age..What a nonsense.

So Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines isn't an RPG? 

[Gill Kaiser]

VtM:B is more of an action-RPG, to be honest. I look at it as the spiritual successor of Deus Ex, not a straight RPG.

[Querne]

In Exile wrote...

Querne wrote...
Witcher is based on a book about.. guess yourself.
Wonder why we could choose anything but beeing a Dragon in Dragon Age..What a nonsense.

So Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines isn't an RPG? 

Of course it is. Not at least because you can choose between 6 different Vampire races..
Witch is 5 more races than DA2 offers..

Modifié par Querne, 24 juillet 2010 - 11:46 .

[In Exile]

Querne wrote...
Of course it is. Not at least because you can choose between 6 different Vampire races..
Witch is 5 more races than DA2 offers..

Those are classes. If you want to count them as races, then Bloodlines did not have classes. So by that definition (customization, classes and race) Bloodlines fails either class or race by neccesity. And it even fails customization, since your apperance was fixed. All you could pick was your gender.

[Phantom_Crash]

For now on I am refering to Hawke as Commander Ace Hunter.

[In Exile]

Kordaris wrote...

But we didn't have Vampire the Game with full customization only to be denied it later.

What does that have to do with anything? You said it needs race, class and facial customization to be an RPG. Vampire didn't have those. So by your definition it isn't an RPG. Stop tapdancing around the issue.

Obfuscate the issue all you want, I'm still calling you out for a terrible definition of RPGs used only to prove a self-serving point.

PS:T was also not an RPG, yes? Gender AND appearance were fixed in that one.

[joriandrake]

In Exile wrote...

Querne wrote...
Of course it is. Not at least because you can choose between 6 different Vampire races..
Witch is 5 more races than DA2 offers..

Those are classes. If you want to count them as races, then Bloodlines did not have classes. //SNIP

uhh, a Clan is more of a race than class, especially as in World of Darkness setting there are no classes to begin with, but if we look at it in an other perspective then obviously same can be said about races (everyone is a vampire because the game is called VAMPIRES and not Werewolves or such)

[Gill Kaiser]

joriandrake wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Querne wrote...
Of course it is. Not at least because you can choose between 6 different Vampire races..
Witch is 5 more races than DA2 offers..

Those are classes. If you want to count them as races, then Bloodlines did not have classes. //SNIP

uhh, a Clan is more of a race than class, especially as in World of Darkness setting there are no classes to begin with, but if we look at it in an other perspective then obviously same can be said about races (everyone is a vampire because the game is called VAMPIRES and not Werewolves or such)

Meh, clans clearly function more like classes than like races in Bloodlines, which is the main issue.

[Querne]

Kordaris wrote...

In Exile wrote...


Those are classes. If you want to count them as races, then Bloodlines did not have classes. So by that definition (customization, classes and race) Bloodlines fails either class or race by neccesity. And it even fails customization, since your apperance was fixed. All you could pick was your gender.

But we didn't have Vampire the Game with full customization only to be denied it later.

Damned. I would have been absolutely amazed by playing Clawke. Who fled from the canals and became the champion of Nod. Or Clawke who also became also champion of Nod, but in a very different, exiting way.

[Querne]

In Exile wrote...

Querne wrote...
No. My peasent Cousland was reknown as
such.

No. Your Cousland was called "Warden."  You were recognized as a noble very rarely, and only by the Banns. Otherwise you were treated as a peasant. So there was no difference in game.

You admit yourself, that she was recognized as Noble. And there was the slightly difference, that I was able to become Queen of Ferelden, a detail I know.

Modifié par Querne, 24 juillet 2010 - 11:59 .

[joriandrake]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Querne wrote...
Of course it is. Not at least because you can choose between 6 different Vampire races..
Witch is 5 more races than DA2 offers..

Those are classes. If you want to count them as races, then Bloodlines did not have classes. //SNIP

uhh, a Clan is more of a race than class, especially as in World of Darkness setting there are no classes to begin with, but if we look at it in an other perspective then obviously same can be said about races (everyone is a vampire because the game is called VAMPIRES and not Werewolves or such)

Meh, clans clearly function more like classes than like races in Bloodlines, which is the main issue.

did you ever play White Wolf games pnp?

[Gill Kaiser]

joriandrake wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Querne wrote...
Of course it is. Not at least because you can choose between 6 different Vampire races..
Witch is 5 more races than DA2 offers..

Those are classes. If you want to count them as races, then Bloodlines did not have classes. //SNIP

uhh, a Clan is more of a race than class, especially as in World of Darkness setting there are no classes to begin with, but if we look at it in an other perspective then obviously same can be said about races (everyone is a vampire because the game is called VAMPIRES and not Werewolves or such)

Meh, clans clearly function more like classes than like races in Bloodlines, which is the main issue.

did you ever play White Wolf games pnp?

No, but what does that have to do with anything? We're talking about Bloodlines, here.

[joriandrake]

Querne wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Querne wrote...
No. My peasent Cousland was reknown as
such.

No. Your Cousland was called "Warden."  You were recognized as a noble very rarely, and only by the Banns. Otherwise you were treated as a peasant. So there was no difference in game.

You admit yourself, that she was recognized as Noble. And there was the slightly difference, that I was able to become Queen of Ferelden, a detail I know.

this



I liked my main character the most, a city elven warrior/knight girl and the only female characte I decided to romance a man, Alistair, but due to her background she was not allowed to marry him, and I didn't want to ruin the character of Alaistair by hardening him, so my character instead picked as reward the lands and title of the dead Loghain, becoming probably the most influental elven noble (and perhaps the only one) in Ferelden, waiting for 1-3 years to ask Alistair again about the marriage then again (afterall she will by then be a known noble and noone can complain)

and yes, she threw Anora into the dungeons or tower or whatever

[In Exile]

joriandrake wrote...

uhh, a Clan is more of a race than class, especially as in World of Darkness setting there are no classes to begin with, but if we look at it in an other perspective then obviously same can be said about races (everyone is a vampire because the game is called VAMPIRES and not Werewolves or such)

It still doesn't matter. It isn't both. So any whitewolf game either lacks different races or different classes, and so isn't an RPG.

[In Exile]

Querne wrote...

You admit yourself, that she was recognized as Noble. And there was the slightly difference, that I was able to become Queen of Ferelden, a detail I know.

But the person who said you were a peasant for 2/3rds of the game never denied this. I never denied this. Our point was only that our Origin did mean anything for the entire game. Pretending like it did otherwise is just disgenous.

[joriandrake]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Querne wrote...
Of course it is. Not at least because you can choose between 6 different Vampire races..
Witch is 5 more races than DA2 offers..

Those are classes. If you want to count them as races, then Bloodlines did not have classes. //SNIP

uhh, a Clan is more of a race than class, especially as in World of Darkness setting there are no classes to begin with, but if we look at it in an other perspective then obviously same can be said about races (everyone is a vampire because the game is called VAMPIRES and not Werewolves or such)

Meh, clans clearly function more like classes than like races in Bloodlines, which is the main issue.

did you ever play White Wolf games pnp?

No, but what does that have to do with anything? We're talking about Bloodlines, here.

that is exactly why it matters, Bloodlines is based on Vampires: The Masquerade, the White Wolf pnp, your replies indicate you have no clue about it, so please don't try to use it as your example

[joriandrake]

In Exile wrote...

Querne wrote...

You admit yourself, that she was recognized as Noble. And there was the slightly difference, that I was able to become Queen of Ferelden, a detail I know.

But the person who said you were a peasant for 2/3rds of the game never denied this. I never denied this. Our point was only that our Origin did mean anything for the entire game. Pretending like it did otherwise is just disgenous.

the difference in the ending alone is more than enough to wish for origins to return, without them the replayability of the game will drop drasticly, I think i didn't ever replay any game except tetris as much as DA1 because of their existence and because the multiple races

[Lord_Saulot]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Querne wrote...
Of course it is. Not at least because you can choose between 6 different Vampire races..
Witch is 5 more races than DA2 offers..

Those are classes. If you want to count them as races, then Bloodlines did not have classes. //SNIP

uhh, a Clan is more of a race than class, especially as in World of Darkness setting there are no classes to begin with, but if we look at it in an other perspective then obviously same can be said about races (everyone is a vampire because the game is called VAMPIRES and not Werewolves or such)

Meh, clans clearly function more like classes than like races in Bloodlines, which is the main issue.

did you ever play White Wolf games pnp?

No, but what does that have to do with anything? We're talking about Bloodlines, here.

Bloodlines was a computer implementation of White Wolf's Vampire: the Masquerade game.

[Querne]

In Exile wrote...

Querne wrote...

You admit yourself, that she was recognized as Noble. And there was the slightly difference, that I was able to become Queen of Ferelden, a detail I know.

But the person who said you were a peasant for 2/3rds of the game never denied this. I never denied this. Our point was only that our Origin did mean anything for the entire game. Pretending like it did otherwise is just disgenous.

Okay, slowly, again: My origin was absolutely determing for the final. Never, nowhere my character was treated as a peasent. The Warden, even with Elven Origin wasn´t treated as peasant, and if he was that was because of his ELVEN ORIGIN.  

[In Exile]

joriandrake wrote...

the difference in the ending alone is more than enough to wish for origins to return, without them the replayability of the game will drop drasticly, I think i didn't ever replay any game except tetris as much as DA1 because of their existence and because the multiple races

That's just false. Maybe what makes a game replayable for you is different races, but aside from experiencing the city elf origin because it reminds me so strongly of a shtetel I didn't play anything other than Human Warriors or Mages (not even a rogue!) and yet somehow still have 200hrs and 8 playthroughs on DA.

As much of a shock as it might be for you to handle, some people replay a game because it is fun, not out of some obsessive need for new content.

[In Exile]

Querne wrote...

Okay, slowly, again: My origin was absolutely determing for the final. Never, nowhere my character was treated as a peasent. The Warden, even with Elven Origin wasn´t treated as peasant, and if he was that was because of his ELVEN ORIGIN.  

Once again, slowly: no one denied that the origin counts.

What we denied was that the origin was relevant 90% of the time. You were treated exactly the same post-Ostagar and pre-endgame with the only difference at most a few lines of dialogue the whole game. Maybe superficial content is special to you, but I see it for what it is: superficial.

Modifié par In Exile, 25 juillet 2010 - 12:17 .

[Lord_Saulot]

In Exile wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

the difference in the ending alone is more than enough to wish for origins to return, without them the replayability of the game will drop drasticly, I think i didn't ever replay any game except tetris as much as DA1 because of their existence and because the multiple races

That's just false. Maybe what makes a game replayable for you is different races, but aside from experiencing the city elf origin because it reminds me so strongly of a shtetel I didn't play anything other than Human Warriors or Mages (not even a rogue!) and yet somehow still have 200hrs and 8 playthroughs on DA.

As much of a shock as it might be for you to handle, some people replay a game because it is fun, not out of some obsessive need for new content.

Also, there were multiple places where we could make different choices in the game, independent of our Origins. 

[joriandrake]

In Exile wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

the difference in the ending alone is more than enough to wish for origins to return, without them the replayability of the game will drop drasticly, I think i didn't ever replay any game except tetris as much as DA1 because of their existence and because the multiple races

That's just false. Maybe what makes a game replayable for you is different races, but aside from experiencing the city elf origin because it reminds me so strongly of a shtetel I didn't play anything other than Human Warriors or Mages (not even a rogue!) and yet somehow still have 200hrs and 8 playthroughs on DA.

As much of a shock as it might be for you to handle, some people replay a game because it is fun, not out of some obsessive need for new content.

so, you, a person who never played anything else than human, comes here and complains about people who are worried about the lack of origins and other races?

This is like a KKK member talking about having no problems with racism at a job