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[nightcobra]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

SRWill64 wrote...

What's with all this Alistair hate, people? His IS the rightful heir to the throne, after all...

Technically - at least when it comes to how things worked in history - he isn't.  Sure, bastards may have been propped up from time to time, but an unrecognized bastard is by no means ever a rightful heir.

In the case of the endings of DA:O where Alistair becomes King, that is a case of might making right.

That being said, Anora has absolutely no claim whatsoever besides the notion that she is already the de facto queen.  She has no royal blood, she is a Mac Tir, and doesn't magically acquire it through marriage. 

I've argued that by the Landsmeet, a human male noble has more right to the throne than anyone else in the room except possibly Loghain given:

1)  The Couslands are one of the only two Teryns in Ferelden
2)  Teryn Cousland is dead, Feargus is easily presumed dead, and that would leave The Warden as the rightful heir to the Teryn
3)  Teryn Loghain is the other Teryn, but as your political rival at the Landsmeet his obstacle to your rule is rather obvious.
4)  Since Alistair has never been recognized by Maric (or even by Cailan as a member of his house) he is illegitimate and his claim would have to be on its own merits and not because of his bloodline, because bloodline very much demands recognition.
5)  Anora is a widowed queen and right to rule does not typically transfer to the spouse, neither does bloodline.

So the Warden is basically the rightful presumed Teryn of Highever, the second noblest house in the land.  If Maric's house is gone, and legally it is, his claim is as good or better than Alistairs or Loghain's.  I always hated the idea that my Warden would have to be second to Anora, when she has no right to rule whatsoever, in the event of a marriage between them.  At the very least they ought to be equals in rule, representing the two Teryns of Ferelden. 

/rant over
//likes Alistair a lot

in this case i chalk it up to the point that these are not our laws so they could make sense in thedas:whistle:

[errant_knight]

I'm just gonna pretend you didn't go there, Upsettingshorts....

[upsettingshorts]

errant_knight wrote...

I'm just gonna pretend you didn't go there, Upsettingshorts....

Hrm?

I didn't say I disliked Alistair or that I didn't make him King.  Just that his claim was totally, totally weak.

But then, so was everyone else's so it wasn't that big of a deal.  In a monarchy, a death of the monarch without a legitimate heir was usually a huge deal that led to wars and succession crisis, so I had no issue propping up a bastard with no rightful claim*.  But still, calling a spade a spade...


*Edit: Given the circumstances anyway.  Doing so in real life could very well have led to a weak king whose legitimacy would be regularly challenged by those with equally tenuous claims.  Why do you think Henry VIII kept trying to have a legitimate son despite having a bastard son and two daughters?  He feared that allowing either a bastard - even a recognized one - or a woman to inherit his throne would invite a challenge to his house's right to rule by his political rivals. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 octobre 2010 - 03:36 .

[errant_knight]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

I'm just gonna pretend you didn't go there, Upsettingshorts....

Hrm?

I didn't say I disliked Alistair or that I didn't make him King.  Just that his claim was totally, totally weak.

But then, so was everyone else's so it wasn't that big of a deal.  In a monarchy, a death of the monarch without a legitimate heir was usually a huge deal that led to wars and succession crisis, so I had no issue propping up a bastard with no rightful claim*.  But still, calling a spade a spade...


*Edit: Given the circumstances anyway.  Doing so in real life could very well have led to a weak king whose legitimacy would be regularly challenged by those with equally tenuous claims.  Why do you think Henry VIII kept trying to have a legitimate son despite having a bastard son and several daughters? 

No, I just meant I'm going to pretend that the thread wasn't derailing. Things like that tend to take on a life of their own, especially Alistair vs Anora or Alistair vs Loghain. I disagree with you utterly, but as I say, I'm not going to go there.

Modifié par errant_knight, 18 octobre 2010 - 03:38 .

[upsettingshorts]

Ah, I see - don't mean to derail the thread. I'll shut up now

Feel free to PM though on the subject.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 octobre 2010 - 03:39 .

[errant_knight]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ah, I see - don't mean to derail the thread. I'll shut up now

Feel free to PM though on the subject.

Heh, sorry to rain on your parade, but I think the mods would shut the thread down for being too DA:O if we went there for any length of time.

[Addai]

To pull it back, I would think it appropriate that we'd see Ferelden and the Free Marches have pretty good relations. Or at least attempts to. They are so close geographically and share a history of trying to free themselves from larger countries. Nevarra, too, since they also kicked out Orlais.  Maric mentions an ambassador from Kirkwall in The Calling, I believe, and we know that a lot of Fereldan refugees fled there which would give the various rulers something to talk about.  So it would make a lot of sense IMO for a King Alistair to show up on a diplomatic mission. 

If he comes with an army, as I was suggesting, I just hope we don't see him die. 

Modifié par Addai67, 18 octobre 2010 - 03:44 .

[Zanaide]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

But then, so was everyone else's so it wasn't that big of a deal. 

I'm curious as to that. Since Rowan (Maric's wife) was sister to Arl Eamon and Bann Teagan, those two are obviously nobility but chose to not seek a claim on the throne since, in their mind, Alistair had a stronger claim based on his blood only.

I dunno. It's obviously a case of bullying your way to the throne no matter which side you're on, Alistair or Loghain/Anora. I did a play-through with Anora as queen and didn't care for the way the epilogue made her rule sound. I didn't much like her anyway.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Shorts is right about the Human Noble having at least just a strong claim to the throne as Alistair, though, especially considering the latter's will not to become king. I basically came to the same conclusion a few months ago:

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

The real question is "Who would be able to stop you?". At that point in the game you are not only the last known surviving member of a well-known and respected noble bloodline, but the de facto leader of the Wardens in Ferelden as well, which translates to you having at least three armies free of Fereldan political influence behind you. If you wanted to, you could take the entire kingdom by force... or just abandon it alltogether. The rest of the nobles need you to defeat the Blight and they damn well know it.

Add to that the fact that you have just defeated - if not outright slain - Loghain, then Regent of Ferelden, Leader of the Armies and Teyrn of Gwaren. Perhaps even more important than that: he has also given you his vote of confidence.

Alistair honestly doesn't want to be King and would most likely prefer his good friend and trusted companion to continue leading. At that point the only loose ends are Eamon and Anora. The former of those is pretty much forced to back the one who is not only supported by his chosen proxy, but saved him, (part of) his family and his entire village as well. Whereas the former Queen herself doesn't have that strong a claim with her husband and father gone, she might not like it but there is nothing she can do.

Whether in name of yourself or the Wardens, nobody is able to stop you from doing what Sophia Dryden could only dream about, albeit in a less violent way. Even if Riordan would not approve, he would be forced to abide in consideration of the coming Darkspawn horde.

All in all, the Warden has:
-A legitimate claim to the throne
-The military competence and might to back it
-Loghain's vote of confidence, which translates to the backing of whatever Loghain loyalists are left
-Alistair's vote of confidence, which translates to Eamon and his followers being forced to back you
-Everyone's knowledge that they need him or her, and would not in any way benefit from opposing said Cousland

[errant_knight]

Addai67 wrote...

To pull it back, I would think it appropriate that we'd see Ferelden and the Free Marches have pretty good relations. Or at least attempts to. They are so close geographically and share a history of trying to free themselves from larger countries. Nevarra, too, since they also kicked out Orlais.  Maric mentions an ambassador from Kirkwall in The Calling, I believe, and we know that a lot of Fereldan refugees fled there which would give the various rulers something to talk about.  So it would make a lot of sense IMO for a King Alistair to show up on a diplomatic mission. 

If he comes with an army, as I was suggesting, I just hope we don't see him die. 

Good relations between rulers, but apparently there's quite a bit of resentment of Ferelan refugees, which could be interesting in terms of the subject of this thread. It could add to exiled Alistair's troubles, and even provide a reason for King Alistair to visit, if he wanted to find some good, cohesive way to repatriate the refugees or something.

Modifié par errant_knight, 18 octobre 2010 - 04:13 .

[Melca36]

SRWill64 wrote...

What's with all this Alistair hate, people? His IS the rightful heir to the throne, after all...Queen Anora or no.
And there has to be something positively evil in you not to love that man.

I love Alistair. It just does not make sense to have him in just the king scenario, especially if we all made different choices in our games.

[Sable Rhapsody]

errant_knight wrote...
Good relations between rulers, but apparently there's quite a bit of resentment of Ferelan refugees, which could be interesting in terms of the subject of this thread. It could add to exiled Alistair's troubles, and even provide a reason for King Alistair to visit, if he wanted to find some good, cohesive way to repatriate the refugees or something.

The ability for Alistair (or Anora if monarch) to do anything in Kirkwall, however, will probably depend heavily on Hawke's actions as Champion of Kirkwall, particularly if, as implied by the first trailer, it means Hawke is taking up a position of political leadership in the city.  I love Alistair, but I'm pretty sure the first Hawke character I play is going to despise him and resist any efforts at Ferelden meddling at every turn.

And I could see a role for exiled or King Alistair, but what about Warden Alistair, which is what I made him in my game.

[Melca36]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
Good relations between rulers, but apparently there's quite a bit of resentment of Ferelan refugees, which could be interesting in terms of the subject of this thread. It could add to exiled Alistair's troubles, and even provide a reason for King Alistair to visit, if he wanted to find some good, cohesive way to repatriate the refugees or something.

The ability for Alistair (or Anora if monarch) to do anything in Kirkwall, however, will probably depend heavily on Hawke's actions as Champion of Kirkwall, particularly if, as implied by the first trailer, it means Hawke is taking up a position of political leadership in the city.  I love Alistair, but I'm pretty sure the first Hawke character I play is going to despise him and resist any efforts at Ferelden meddling at every turn.

And I could see a role for exiled or King Alistair, but what about Warden Alistair, which is what I made him in my game.

I think some people just don't like the thought of seeing Warden Alistair.   I think it would be interesting in seeing him in every concievable scenario myself.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Melca36 wrote...
I think some people just don't like the thought of seeing Warden Alistair.   I think it would be interesting in seeing him in every concievable scenario myself.

I was more wondering what Warden Alistair could possibly have to do with Hawke.  The Blight's over, at least by a year or two into DA2.  I could see running into him while the Blight is still ongoing, maybe see what he was up to while the Warden was in Amaranthine.  But as for the politics of Kirkwall and the qunari, I just can't see Warden Alistair getting involved.  It's totally not his responsibility.

[Zanaide]

As much as I love Alistair and Steve Valentine (He's got lupus I tell you!), I wonder how much if at all we'd actually see him after Hawke leaves Fereldan. King Alistair has his own problems to worry about what with stabilizing after the Blight, dead Alistair doesn't have anything to do, and Warden Alistair.. Well he might have more reason to go to the Free Marches but I'd think it more likely that he'd be busy trying to salvage and recruit the Grey Wardens in Fereldan. He'd be more apt to be making trips to Weisshaupt Fortress in the Anderfels which is pretty much no where near the Free Marches.

Not to mention that King Alistair could be trying to defend against an attack by Orlais or the Qunari.. What better time to attack Fereldan than after their forces are weakened by the Blight.

Eh, conjecture, conjecture, conjecture. Can I has my game nao? <.<

[errant_knight]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
Good relations between rulers, but apparently there's quite a bit of resentment of Ferelan refugees, which could be interesting in terms of the subject of this thread. It could add to exiled Alistair's troubles, and even provide a reason for King Alistair to visit, if he wanted to find some good, cohesive way to repatriate the refugees or something.

The ability for Alistair (or Anora if monarch) to do anything in Kirkwall, however, will probably depend heavily on Hawke's actions as Champion of Kirkwall, particularly if, as implied by the first trailer, it means Hawke is taking up a position of political leadership in the city.  I love Alistair, but I'm pretty sure the first Hawke character I play is going to despise him and resist any efforts at Ferelden meddling at every turn.

And I could see a role for exiled or King Alistair, but what about Warden Alistair, which is what I made him in my game.

Bad actions by Hawke toward Fereldan refugees would give Alistair more of a reason for a diplomatic visit, not less. Doesn't mean it would work. Not sure why Hawke would have a hate on for Ferelden, though. Given the templar control of Kirkwall, I suspect that Ferelden looks pretty good in comparison, to a man/woman with mages in the family.

Modifié par errant_knight, 18 octobre 2010 - 10:10 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

To pull it back, I would think it appropriate that we'd see Ferelden and the Free Marches have pretty good relations. Or at least attempts to. They are so close geographically and share a history of trying to free themselves from larger countries. Nevarra, too, since they also kicked out Orlais.  Maric mentions an ambassador from Kirkwall in The Calling, I believe, and we know that a lot of Fereldan refugees fled there which would give the various rulers something to talk about.  So it would make a lot of sense IMO for a King Alistair to show up on a diplomatic mission. 

If he comes with an army, as I was suggesting, I just hope we don't see him die. 

Historically speaking, the Free Marches attempted to invade Ferelden. So it's not obvious that they need to have good relations. If Ferelden starts focusing its power on the sea, it will challenge Free March City State supremacy on the waking sea traffic.

However, Ferelden can establish good diplomatic contact if it takes the opportunity to assist the Free Marches in its war against the Qunari (directly or indirectly).

While the refugee issue could push for more cooperation, it can also be a source of friction. So it will depend largely on their situation. If Ferelden will make it look like it will meddle in Kirkwall's sovereignity based on the refugee issue, it won't look good.

But, I would think that Nevarra would make a much better ally for Ferelden and this alliance would serve as a deterrence mechanism against Orlais (two potential fronts if it comes to war). But it has to be subtle, Orlais can't feel like it's being contained. So yea, I think Ferelden has several options and opportunities it can take. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 octobre 2010 - 10:41 .

[maxernst]

The Free Marches aren't a single entity, so it's quite likely that Ferelden, Orlais and Nevarra would all have both friends and enemies among the various city states.

BTW, Am I the only one whou finds the name Nevarra really annoying because of being too close to a historical kingdom?  I have to check the spelling every time because it looks so wrong, like Ingland or Burgunda.

Modifié par maxernst, 18 octobre 2010 - 10:56 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

maxernst wrote...

The Free Marches aren't a single entity, so it's quite likely that Ferelden, Orlais and Nevarra would all have both friends and enemies among the various city states.

It's true, they aren't. But they have displayed unity in certain situations. So they might not be united, but there seems to be a general collective interest that they all share.

I don't think, based on the info we have, that foreign powers can ally with one city-state against the other. At least not too directly. I would think Free March City States would all seek to avoid too much foreign influence.
But we know very little as of yet.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 octobre 2010 - 10:57 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

errant_knight wrote...
Bad actions by Hawke toward Fereldan refugees would give Alistair more of a reason for a diplomatic visit, not less. Doesn't mean it would work. Not sure why Hawke would have a hate on for Ferelden, though. Given the templar control of Kirkwall, I suspect that Ferelden looks pretty good in comparison, to a man/woman with mages in the family.

Not necessarily for Ferelden per se, just for foreign meddling in Kirkwall, and Alistair as an individual.  Then again, my mage Hawke doesn't much like anyone so I suppose it's not saying much.

As for the politics of the Free Marches, they reminded me a bit of the classical Greek city-states.  They might bicker and squabble amongst themselves, but they're interested in maintaining their independence and will band together against foreign meddling or aggression.

[TK2121]

I'd definitely like for Alistair to return. In fact I'd like it if everyone returns. To me that was one of my favorite parts of ME2, seeing the story you laid out continue. I recently replayed the game and sort of sent Ferelden through a nice little GOlden Age with everyone happy while this time I let poor Drawfville to good old Harrowmont. You know, just because I felt he was a "good guy" and the Prince was evil. So I liked to see that continued and like to see every characters' story continue or get updated just a bit.

I definitely want the Warden and Alistair's story to continue, especially since mine married him. I'd like to see what happens in their marriage, if they get a heir, if they rule justly, all that jazz. I think it would be sort of blah if you don't get that. You worked hard in the first game with your character and not just the land. To have his/her story basically
stopped suddenly and never mentioned except in fairytales when that person could either be King or Queen is unfair.

So yeah I'd like for there to mention of both Alistair andmy own Warden, their marriage, their maybe children(or if they can't have children...that gets mentioned).  I don't need them to have big parts in the story, just appearances and mentions.

But yeah for DA to feel truly epic, the story really has to continue onwards and that includes the characters...

Oh and of course Morrigan update too!

I don't know. To me if there really isn't some good continuing of the story, I really won't want to play it as much, and I definitely be hesitant with 2. One of the reasons I am so excited with ME3 is to see where my story will end. Not just THE story, MY story. It's not just about the character, it's about ALL the characters and the world they live in. I'd be lying if I didn't say I was a bit disappointed in a new character but I am also excited for Hawke too. But mostly I'm getting Dragon Age 2 to see where my story and the characters I grew to care for have gone.:innocent:

Modifié par TK2121, 19 octobre 2010 - 03:23 .

[Addai]

Melca36 wrote...

I think some people just don't like the thought of seeing Warden Alistair.   I think it would be interesting in seeing him in every concievable scenario myself.

I didn't see anyone say that.  On the contrary, I think we're discussing King Alistair because that would be the least likely scenario of A. kicking up somewhere along Hawke's path.

And like I said upthread, I hope DA2 is an opportunity to have Warden Alistair not drop off the face of the earth, a la Awakening.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

maxernst wrote...

The Free Marches aren't a single entity, so it's quite likely that Ferelden, Orlais and Nevarra would all have both friends and enemies among the various city states.

It's true, they aren't. But they have displayed unity in certain situations. So they might not be united, but there seems to be a general collective interest that they all share.

I don't think, based on the info we have, that foreign powers can ally with one city-state against the other. At least not too directly. I would think Free March City States would all seek to avoid too much foreign influence.
But we know very little as of yet.

Well I for one wasn't talking about any sort of formal alliance.  Diplomatic relations still go on even if countries aren't close allies.

Modifié par Addai67, 19 octobre 2010 - 03:24 .

[Addai]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

I was more wondering what Warden Alistair could possibly have to do with Hawke.  The Blight's over, at least by a year or two into DA2.  I could see running into him while the Blight is still ongoing, maybe see what he was up to while the Warden was in Amaranthine.  But as for the politics of Kirkwall and the qunari, I just can't see Warden Alistair getting involved.  It's totally not his responsibility.

He could be on his way to Weisshaupt.  We know King Alistair is called to Weisshaupt in some scenarios, so that could even be his deal.

[eucatastrophe]

I hope he does.