505 réponses à ce sujet

[David Gaider]

Riona45 wrote...
I guess disliking DA2 gives people amazing powers of prognostication.  They are able to tell us about how much of a coward Hawke is, how his/her story is FAR less interesting than that of certain Starcraft characters, etc.

Hawke is a blank slate, whereas the Warden from DAO is not. I get it. A blank slate is always going to seem like less when you don't have any positive points to compare.

Thing is, the Warden was once a blank slate, too. Nobody went into DAO knowing much of anything about the Grey Wardens (and many people on these forums expressed distaste for the idea of being "forced" into such an organization, in fact) or having any idea what to expect. Once they played the game, they got attached.

Being attached and wishing that you could continue a story which is already over, however, is not the same as there being nothing in a new story to get attached to. If that were the case we would only experience one good story ever, and then spend the rest of our lives wishing that every new story revisited that one.

And before someone goes "but this is a sequel!" I will say, yes, it is-- but it's not a continuation of the original story. It's the same world you were introduced to, with many connections to the original story, but a new hero. Lots of sequels do this. I'm not saying being attached to one's Warden is wrong-- quite the opposite, I think it's a compliment-- but confusing that attachment with the idea that a sequel must carry on with the original hero is quite something else.

Until Hawke isn't a blank slate, however, people aren't going to change their opinion and will only see the loss of the positives. Completely understandable. I would say that the connection might come in time (there's still many months left to go before you need to decide anything, after all), once you get more of a sense of what the story is and Hawke's place in it, but that's not something an angry person wants to hear I'm sure.

Modifié par David Gaider, 25 juillet 2010 - 12:46 .

[Grommash94]

Anathemic wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Anathemic wrote...
This is why these debates/arguments never go anywhere because one always has to resort to sarcasm, if you look at all my posts not one of them were sarcastic.

I wish they were.

I'm using sarcasm to illustrate just how absurd I think your argument is. You don't like the direction of DA2? By all means, that's your right as a consumer.

But I disagree with this worship of the character of the Grey Warden in DA:O was if that character was infallible, and absolute dislike this apparent need to trash the very unknown character of Hawke.

And if you werent sarcastic, well thank you for agreeing for me but you have the info wrong on BioWare's statement that Hawke is ireelevant and the gamplay is centered around the running-and-begging-for-your-life mechanic

But that can't be true. You mean Hawke doesn't spend the game doing cowardly things? That's almost like Hakwe isn't a coward or something.

If you look at my other posts on this thread I don't really care if the Warden makes it in  DA2 or not, I'm stating that the Warden is more interesitng then Hawke, and I can probally garuntee that too. Unless another Blight comes in in the same age, nothing will surpass the Warden's achievements.

The Warden saved Ferelden. The rest of the world was far more prepared for a Blight, and thus, the world was not at danger...only Ferelden was. Hawke becomes the most important person in Thedas ever, in all of its history. More than Andraste, more than previous Grey Wardens, more than the Archons of Tevinter.

I am sorry, but the Warden's achievements will be nothing compared to becoming the most important person in Thedas.

Where does it say Hawke becomes the most important EVER in the history of Dragon Age and in Thedas?

Game Informer, I believe.

[Rogue Unit]

filetemo wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

filetemo wrote...

"Hawke isn't a Warden. It's not his job to fight the Archdemon. "

thast's why we don't care about him

Most of the grey wardens in this region are dead and ironically so is mine.  Whats so special about warriors who drink arch demoon blood anyway?  THat was relevant to that story, not this one.

my point is:

youi can't expect me to respect you as a hero if you flee from where real hero's are saving the world.
Even if you had to flee for whatever reasons, you are not in the central point of the story, so whatever you do is thanks to others getting the job done somewhere else.

If they wanted to tell the story of another hero, do it 100 years after the blight.

What do you want Hawke to do say "Mom , Dad there about oh.....10 billion darkspawn coming lets stay and fight as not to be called cowards.  Hell the Grey Wardens, The King and the other nobles armies were defeated but we have a fighting chance. And great news! We wont be called cowards!"

You logic is terrible flawed. We don't even know if Hawke was trained in swordplay when he fled. We dont know his reasons for leaving all we know is that he left Lothering to fall, like the Warden and like any sane person would.

Modifié par Rogue Unit, 25 juillet 2010 - 12:46 .

[Daerog]

filetemo wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

You'd rather want someone to stay and die rather than flee to live another day?

The Warden didn't actively take on those hordes until they had an army

hawke should have joined that army

Militia, not army. No gaurantee he/she would be hired full time just because he/she wants to join. I'm guessing his/her fleeing more involves Bethany or his/her dragon arm thing.

[Anathemic]

Kritanakom wrote...
Wouldn't that be terribly boring if the only way to be as big a hero as the Warden was to defeat that exact same blighty threat? Shouldn't the second game have some new awesome thing to do to become a hero? I think the writers can do that.

Lord of the Rings, Frodo is arguably the most important character there, for he saved the world (of Middle-Earth) by ending Sauron's reign by casting the ring in Mount Doom. However, Aragorn, Legolas, and other members of the fellowship are more well-recieved by people.
DA2 can do this, I just doubt that Hawke can.

[In Exile]

filetemo wrote...

youi can't expect me to respect you as a hero if you flee from where real hero's are saving the world.
Even if you had to flee for whatever reasons, you are not in the central point of the story, so whatever you do is thanks to others getting the job done somewhere else.

If they wanted to tell the story of another hero, do it 100 years after the blight.

I would find it really funny if Hakwe ends up defeating super-blight, that's 100 times more potent than the blight or something, and then this post becomes an ironic condemnation of the Warden for wasting his time with the regular Blight.

Seriously, you don't know how or what or why or anything about what Hawke is doing.

Anathemic wrote...
Alright in all seriousness it is really
plausible that the Warden killed the darkspawn who sacked Lothering, if
not maybe someone else killed them (probally the Warden kills them in
Awakening). Even if those darkspawn didn't die, they are probally
wandering somewhere in Ferelden, not the Free Marches or Kirkwall
whatever, or maybe in the Deep Roads. I can 100% garuntee (yes i use
this alot) that Hawke  in DA2 will not  kill the darkspawn who sacked
Lothering.

I don't even think it's plausible for the Warden to tell apart darkspawn, much less go out and kill specific ones in a horde.

Personally, I agree. I also think it's a stupid nitpicking point, because no one said Hawke was a coward for not coming back to kill the darkspawn until Ibrought up that the Cousland character by that logic would be a coward for not killing Howe in Highever, and suddenly we needed logical exceptions to defend our favourite characters.

[Anathemic]

Grommash94 wrote...

Game Informer, I believe.

Doubt it, probally some forum rumor, but even if it were true I WOULD STILL DOUBT IT, because ign is known for stupid reviews and writing.

Example: http://xbox360.ign.c.../1108057p1.html

[Grommash94]

Anathemic wrote...

Kritanakom wrote...
Wouldn't that be terribly boring if the only way to be as big a hero as the Warden was to defeat that exact same blighty threat? Shouldn't the second game have some new awesome thing to do to become a hero? I think the writers can do that.

Lord of the Rings, Frodo is arguably the most important character there, for he saved the world (of Middle-Earth) by ending Sauron's reign by casting the ring in Mount Doom. However, Aragorn, Legolas, and other members of the fellowship are more well-recieved by people.
DA2 can do this, I just doubt that Hawke can.

Alright, got several links saying that Hawke becomes the most important person in Thedas:
http://gamedrone.net...vealed-at-last/
"Hawke eventually becomes the most important character in the world of Dragon Age."



He's described as a penniless refugee who rises to power to become the
single most important character in the world of Dragon Age.
http://www.eurogamer...gon-age-2-dated


So, it is a fact that Hawke does something that tops the Warden. Blights aren't the most important occurences in Thedas, after all.

Modifié par Grommash94, 25 juillet 2010 - 12:53 .

[Saibh]

filetemo wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

filetemo wrote...

"Hawke isn't a Warden. It's not his job to fight the Archdemon. "

thast's why we don't care about him

But unfortunately, this person is the PC of DA2.  If you don't plan to play DA2 (and why would you, if you don't care about the PC?), why hang around on a board meant for discussing DA2 after you've made your point about it several times over?

because the arguments against my opinions are silly so I have to keep answering back.

Right. Now I'm going to go leech up some of your past arguments.

this is the problem: coherency. If
kirkwall and hawke had such an awesome story during DAO, how come we
never heard about them before? If we are going to live a parallel story
I'd rather play as somebody I met in DAO or somebody I heard about.

Oh, wait, you don't know anything about Hawke and when he becomes important. You, of course, didn't acknowledge that until about the fifth time of us pointing this out.

No need for the warden to hear it, codex entries about the lore of
kirkwall, a reference made by an NPC about "some misterious champion"
from the free marches.No matter how you deny it, it feels like they took
hawke and kirkwall out of their butts.
And the blight took more than
a year to get defeated, and then the next year there's DAO awakening.
If there's no reference to kirkwall or hawke in two years (not needed to
direct it to the warden, but to the player isntead) it feels they just
made it up yesterday

Here it is, again, for emphasis.

again with this? as I said in my last post, it's not about the
warden knowing it, it's about BUILDING UP and hyping the player for the
character he's gonna use in the sequel. To make him excited to know
about this champion he'll play with in the next game, if time
constraints and budget prevented from doing so in dao or awakenings,
their last chance is to make the next dao DLC a bridge between ending
the wardens story and hyping up hawke.

Similar, only this time I pointed out it'd make far less sense for the Warden to constantly bring up/have it brought up to some random ass guy who has no importance to what he/she is doing.

the thing who decided the
destiny of the world is the blight, any other thing hapenning while that
happened matters not, hence why hawke's rise to power is a tale I do
not want to hear because any power he can achieve is thanks to the real
hero's fighting the archdemon when he was doing whatever in the free
marches. Without the archdemon dead, there's no little hawke rising to
champion of somewhere.

So whatever his story is, it's tainted because he was not where he had to be, fighting for ferelden.

Except you don't know the exact plotline of DA2, so guess what? Hawke could be doing something far more important. In fact, the release statement said he'd become "the single most important character in the world of Dragon Age". So I'm going to guess he does some pretty important things. And we'll never know if the Blight would have been crushed if it tried making its way out of Ferelden. For all we know, it was only a threat to that one country.

the problem with bioware's wheel is that paragraphs are TOO
SHORT, add 5 or 6 more words so I can get a resume of what's going to be
said, not a general idea or a hint of what's going to be said leading
to musnderstandings.

That's what the icon is for. You don't yet know if it'll be sufficient.

It goes on. I think you see my point.

[Daerog]

Grommash94 wrote...

Alright, got several links saying that Hawke becomes the most important person in Thedas:
http://gamedrone.net...vealed-at-last/
"Hawke eventually becomes the most important character in the world of Dragon Age."



He's described as a penniless refugee who rises to power to become the
single most important character in the world of Dragon Age.
http://www.eurogamer...gon-age-2-dated


So, it is a fact that Hawke does something that tops the Warden

That or poor marketing. It doesn't say most important for all time, but he probably does get involved in something extraordinary. I can't help but look at that weird arm he has in the artwork.

[Anathemic]

David Gaider wrote...

Riona45 wrote...
I guess disliking DA2 gives people amazing powers of prognostication.  They are able to tell us about how much of a coward Hawke is, how his/her story is FAR less interesting than that of certain Starcraft characters, etc.

Hawke is a blank slate, whereas the Warden from DAO is not. I get it. A blank slate is always going to seem like less when you don't have any positive points to compare.

Thing is, the Warden was once a blank slate, too. Nobody went into DAO knowing much of anything about the Grey Wardens (and many people on these forums expressed distaste for the idea of being "forced" into such an organization, in fact) or having any idea what to expect. Once they played the game, they got attached.

Being attached and wishing that you could continue a story which is already over, however, is not the same as there being nothing in a new story to get attached to. If that were the case we would only experience one good story ever, and then spend the rest of our lives wishing that every new story revisited that one.

And before someone goes "but this is a sequel!" I will say, yes, it is-- but it's not a continuation of the original story. It's the same world you were introduced to, with many connections to the original story, but a new hero. Lots of sequels do this. I'm not saying being attached to one's Warden is wrong-- quite the opposite, I think it's a compliment-- but confusing that attachment with the idea that a sequel must carry on with the original hero is quite something else.

Until Hawke isn't a blank slate, however, people aren't going to change their opinion and will only see the loss of the positives. Completely understandable. I would say that the connection might come in time (there's still many months left to go before you need to decide anything, after all), once you get more of a sense of what the story is and Hawke's place in it, but that's not something an angry person wants to hear I'm sure.

Ahh but Mr. Gaider, pre-DA:O we already knew the Warden was going to rally and army and defeat the Blight (atleast I did, couple of week, 1 or 2, before the release) and honestly, it surpasses in what I'm seeing of Hawke currently

[Saibh]

Anathemic wrote...

Ahh but Mr. Gaider, pre-DA:O we already knew the Warden was going to rally and army and defeat the Blight (atleast I did, couple of week, 1 or 2, before the release) and honestly, it surpasses in what I'm seeing of Hawke currently

DA2 comes out in March.

Tell me what the date is right now. Is it two weeks before the release?

Modifié par Saibh, 25 juillet 2010 - 12:57 .

[Daerog]

Anathemic wrote...

Ahh but Mr. Gaider, pre-DA:O we already knew the Warden was going to rally and army and defeat the Blight (atleast I did, couple of week, 1 or 2, before the release) and honestly, it surpasses in what I'm seeing of Hawke currently

I think David Gaider is asking for people to give Hawke a chance. I don't think he's claiming that Hawke is better than the Warden. However, I do think it will be hard to surpass the Warden in legend. Not a bad thing, I still look forward to the story of DA2. Will probably learn more 1 or 2 weeks before release in this case, too.

[AlanC9]

Anathemic wrote...

Lord of the Rings, Frodo is arguably the most important character there, for he saved the world (of Middle-Earth) by ending Sauron's reign by casting the ring in Mount Doom.

Umm.... actually, Gollum did that. But yeah, Frodo got the press for it.

[Anathemic]

Grommash94 wrote...


Alright, got several links saying that Hawke becomes the most important person in Thedas:
http://gamedrone.net...vealed-at-last/
"Hawke eventually becomes the most important character in the world of Dragon Age."



He's described as a penniless refugee who rises to power to become the
single most important character in the world of Dragon Age.
http://www.eurogamer...gon-age-2-dated


So, it is a fact that Hawke does something that tops the Warden. Blights aren't the most important occurences in Thedas, after all.

All right I will stand down on this point, but personally I will probally be favoring the Warden more than Hawke whatever Hawke does/doesn't do in DA2.

[AlanC9]

Kordaris wrote...
He comes with pre-determined race, pre-determined family name. Both race and name are two very strong elements of self-identification. I would never call him a blank state.

All DAO characters came with pre-determined family name.

[Anathemic]

Saibh wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

Ahh but Mr. Gaider, pre-DA:O we already knew the Warden was going to rally and army and defeat the Blight (atleast I did, couple of week, 1 or 2, before the release) and honestly, it surpasses in what I'm seeing of Hawke currently

DA2 comes out in March.

Tell me what the date is right now. Is it two weeks before the release?

True true, but this is what the forums are all about right? Stating out opinions based on information we have

[Grommash94]

Kordaris wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

All DAO characters came with pre-determined family name.

I bolded the important part which is missing in DA2.

....really? <_<

[AlanC9]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...
However, I do think it will be hard to surpass the Warden in legend.

Whoever ended the first Blight probably has a shot at it. The first Wardens had it a lot tougher than the johnny-come-latelys we've been following.

[Riona45]

Jonnybear84 wrote...
Fled like a coward? you havent played the game so you don't know the circumstances under which Hawke and co end up leaving lothering....maybe they have to fight their way out? maybe they stick around to fight and basically end up being rescued from certain death by Flemeth (think i read this somewhere but can't remember where so if someone could confirm that would be great) or maybe he leaves/flees Lothering because he wants to protect his Sister and insists on escorting her out of there or basically any number of possibilities.....hell you could even be right and it was just pure cowardice and the story revolves around Hawke changing from a common selfish coward into a legendary hero...

Some people here apparently believe that committing one act of cowardice in your life makes you a coward forever, and undeserving of the title of "hero," no matter what else you do.

[David Gaider]

Kordaris wrote...
He isn't a blank state. He is a human male/female from Hawke family. This isn't a blank state. We can't make him elvish, we can't make him dwarven,  we can't make him quanari, we can't make him coming from any other family.

He comes with pre-determined race, pre-determined family name. Both race and name are two very strong elements of self-identification. I would never call him a blank state.

Your DAO character also had a pre-determined family name, based on your origin. YES-- you had six to choose from. I'm not arguing that. What I mean by a blank slate is that you associate nothing with the character. You also associated nothing with your Warden character when you began. The fact that you could choose things about him did not mean he wasn't  a blank slate.

This is not the core of the problem. You didn't had one pre-determined hero in DAO. You could chose from several, and picked one you liked. This option has been reduced from DA2.Selecting a new hero in DA2 would be ok, playing Gray Warden again is not necessary(and in fact would be very difficult) but being forced to abandon such clever and creative process of selection of your hero is what angers people.

So choosing your race and origin (the beginning to your story) made for a whole new hero? You do realize that was still the same story, you were still the same Grey Warden who went on to defeat the Blight in the same way as those other heroes, yes? As I've said elsewhere, if the mere fact of that choice is THAT much of a difference to you, by all mean-- there's nothing we could say that could convince you-- but you talk as if it created a whole new story and the fact that DA2 has less choices to start means there is none at all.

Anathemic wrote...
Ahh but Mr. Gaider, pre-DA:O we already
knew the Warden was going to rally and army and defeat the Blight
(atleast I did, couple of week, 1 or 2, before the release) and
honestly, it surpasses in what I'm seeing of Hawke currently

As you yourself say, you didn't know this until a couple of weeks before release... whereas here we are a couple of weeks after announcement. Like I said, at this same point the Grey Warden was just as much of a blank slate. You have nothing to associate with it... well, except for your concerns and fears, I guess. The same was the case after DAO was announced.

Modifié par David Gaider, 25 juillet 2010 - 01:06 .

[AlanC9]

Kordaris wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

All DAO characters came with pre-determined family name.

I bolded the important part which is missing in DA2.

You're going to have to unpack that. I have no idea what you're trying to imply.

[SirOccam]

Kordaris wrote...

David Gaider wrote...


Hawke is a blank slate, whereas the Warden from DAO is not. I get it. A blank slate is always going to seem like less when you don't have any positive points to compare.

He isn't a blank state. He is a human male/female from Hawke family. This isn't a blank state. We can't make him elvish, we can't make him dwarven,  we can't make him quanari, we can't make him coming from any other family.

He comes with pre-determined race, pre-determined family name. Both race and name are two very strong elements of self-identification. I would never call him a blank state.

Seriously...a freaking brick wall.

You couldn't choose your last name in DAO either, so let's just get that one out of the way. That objection has been roundly and thoroughly discredited.

As for race...seriously, you think "a human" is not a blank slate? Even if they did allow Elves and Dwarves and Qunari, you could still say "but they won't let us play as aliens from outer space!"

A person with a last name is a slate that is pretty damn blank.

This is not the core of the problem. You didn't had one pre-determined hero in DAO. You could chose from several, and picked one you liked. This option has been reduced from DA2.Selecting a new hero in DA2 would be ok, playing Gray Warden again is not necessary(and in fact would be very difficult) but being forced to abandon such clever and creative process of selection of your hero is what angers people.

But how big a deal is it, really? Once you finished the Origin, the rest of the game was almost exactly the same, the only differences being almost entirely cosmetic.

I submit that DAO will turn out to have given you much less freedom than DA2. In DAO you're pretty much railroaded into joining the Wardens (notice how you can't say "no?"), then given a task which you have no choice but to accept.

In DA2, you're...some dude trying to stay alive, and dealing with things as they come and making your own decisions and acting (at least partially) out of self-interest. That is freedom, right there.