505 réponses à ce sujet

[Anathemic]

In Exile wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

Might be the style of role-playing then. My point is that this slight change to you is a major difference to me. Even though I like to play the role I'm given (hence role-playing) I want that role to be simple and ambigious so even though I still have a restriction (as role-playing is naturally) I still have enough room to improvise and flesh out the character to make it my own.

DA:O gave me this because I didn't have to stick with one family name all the time and it was barely referenced in the game. I was "Warden" rather than "Warden Cousland".

But then you have to appreciate how for other people, this was just as terrible as some last name. So acting as if the Warden title is somehow better than Hawke doesn't work at all. It works for you because that's how you see your characters. It doesn't work for me because of how I see my characters.

What I hate isn't people with preferences, it's acting as if those preferences are absolute and objective.

My preferences arent absolute, but i cast them as objective. I wanted the Dragon Age franchise/story/genre/whatever you want to call it to be it's own. I saw it (some others did to) a new kind of RPG different from all the other RPG's which can be barely be called RPGs (Fallout 3, may or may not agree with me), a return to roots. Sure DA:O was stated as this return to roots and DA2 wasn't but still the first Halo was stated at Combat Evolved and Combat Evolved lasted throughout the remainder of the Halo series, why couldn't DA2?

[Daerog]

Merci357 wrote...

Kordaris wrote...

Well different role-playing styles then, I would hate being denied freedom of player creation in a game.

I guess the Game Master part would be better suited for you, then. Complete freedom to shape the world. However, your character needs to be adressed in DA2, like s/he was adressed in Origins (Warden, most of the time) or Awakening (also Warden, or Commander, or both) - rank or status made that easy. In the sequel you are no member of such an order, quite refreshing. What do you propose, how should the PC be adressed? By race? By profession? The name is in my oppinion the easiest solution to this, as it is just that - a name.

Actually, easiest way is to make everyone completely mute. Or say some things, but not everything, like in NWN. Be cheaper, too, with fewer VAs.
Don't think I'm hating on DA2, I'm eagerly looking forward to it.

[In Exile]

I remember the whole Spirit Monk nonsense from JE, where even if you didn't want the role, title or identity it was still forced on you. This is what I hate about games where your membership in a particular order is integral to the story. If you happen to want a character who rejects that identity, tough luck.

[In Exile]

Anathemic wrote...

My preferences arent absolute, but i cast them as objective. I wanted the Dragon Age franchise/story/genre/whatever you want to call it to be it's own. I saw it (some others did to) a new kind of RPG different from all the other RPG's which can be barely be called RPGs (Fallout 3, may or may not agree with me), a return to roots. Sure DA:O was stated as this return to roots and DA2 wasn't but still the first Halo was stated at Combat Evolved and Combat Evolved lasted throughout the remainder of the Halo series, why couldn't DA2?

What are you talking about?

I'm speaking about a very specific thing: for RPing purposes, the name Hawke in and of itself is superior and the label Warden for how I RP. You think otherwise. Awesome.

What I am pointing out is that this mere thing, with the name, not with PC VO, not with gameplay, not with Origins, can totally suck for one player and be awesome for another.

So what I am saying is that you're absolutely not justified in saying, without any qualifier that it is your own opinion, that the name Hawke restricts roleplaying any more than any other specific moniker used to address the player would.

[Daerog]

In Exile wrote...

I remember the whole Spirit Monk nonsense from JE, where even if you didn't want the role, title or identity it was still forced on you. This is what I hate about games where your membership in a particular order is integral to the story. If you happen to want a character who rejects that identity, tough luck.

At least you could let the villian win in that game. Where was my option to just feed myself to the Archdemon, huh?

JE

[David Gaider]

Merci357 wrote...
However, your character needs to be adressed in DA2, like s/he was adressed in Origins (Warden, most of the time) or Awakening (also Warden, or Commander, or both) - rank or status made that easy. In the sequel you are no member of such an order, quite refreshing. What do you propose, how should the PC be adressed? By race? By profession? The name is in my oppinion the easiest solution to this, as it is just that - a name.

You do indeed need to be addressed. In fact, we refer to the DA2 player far less often as Hawke than we referred to the player as Warden in DAO. Only people who know you intimately use the name, and even then we tend to avoid direct references as a rule to avoid repetition. Most people who don't know you will use an honorific (or even by race, if they're not human).

[Erebusd13]

Though I love customization and think games should always go forward with allowing more rather than the current trend of allowing less, we will never see games where we can have full control of the character's entire story...while background could be personalized the actual gameplay will always require a certain amount of shoehorning. though it would be great to have an option where your character retires to the farm and only encounters the darkspawn as the overrun his village(make for a very short storyline as well).

Modifié par Erebusd13, 25 juillet 2010 - 02:27 .

[dheer]

I don't see why everyone has to shout people down just because they wanted to continue with their Warden. They're not using him/her in DA2, I get it but screaming about how you're so glad we're not playing with that character because you're done with it is not a compelling point.

I'm not going to go crazy and say that i'm never going to buy the game or burn down Bioware's headquarters over it either. It's just as crazy on that end of the spectrum. However, quite a few of you seem to be on the other end of it and don't even notice because you have to be right or something.

Instead of a sequel, I'm down to hoping for some DLC that continues the Warden's tale before DA2 comes out. Not the end of the world but not the happiest turn of events either.

[Saibh]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Saibh wrote...

I feel like your definition of "freedom" is an illusion. You prefer the illusion of choice rather than the presence of it. You're okay with being a Warden, who has no choice over his or her destiny, but you're not okay with playing a human named Hawke who does control it. Yes, you've told us those reasons, but those reasons are fairly superficial in nature--again, you prefer the illusion.

Umm... all choice in video games is an illusion? While storywise, Hawke does have more choice than the Warden who is doomed to forever be a warden and slowly turn into a ghoulish thing, gamewise, Warden has to become a warden and save world while Hawke has to be Champion of Kirkwall. There is no freedom, there is only choice and inevitables.
Ignore me if I sound silly.

No, no, you're right: you can never do anything in a video game that the perameters don't admit. Perhaps I should have said that he prefers the smoke of an illusion of choice?

[Daerog]

David Gaider wrote...

You do indeed need to be addressed. In fact, we refer to the DA2 player far less often as Hawke than we referred to the player as Warden in DAO. Only people who know you intimately use the name, and even then we tend to avoid direct references as a rule to avoid repetition. Most people who don't know you will use an honorific (or even by race, if they're not human).

Ser David "The Maker" Gaider, a question if you will about the bolded.

The closest person to Hawke is Bethany, no? Wouldn't it be awkward to just have your sister refer to you by your shared last name? If so, how does Bethany refer to you? Brother, Sister, or a nickname?

[AlanC9]

David Gaider wrote...

You do indeed need to be addressed. In fact, we refer to the DA2 player far less often as Hawke than we referred to the player as Warden in DAO. Only people who know you intimately use the name, and even then we tend to avoid direct references as a rule to avoid repetition. Most people who don't know you will use an honorific (or even by race, if they're not human).

An honorifc, eh. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that this honorific changes over the course of the game.

[YohkoOhno]

Y'know, with all these people talking a lot about "traditional RPGs"...



Does anybody remember tournament play? You went to a convention and were given a pre-generated character. That was the norm. You didn't get to roll up your character, you got what the DM gave you. (Not to mention early tabletop RPGs didn't spend a lot of time on character motivations).



So Bioware is following in the tradition of things.

[AlanC9]

Anathemic wrote...

In Exile wrote...

What I hate isn't people with preferences, it's acting as if those preferences are absolute and objective.

My preferences arent absolute, but i cast them as objective. 

So you two are just having a dispute about rhetoric?

[Daerog]

dheer wrote...

I don't see why everyone has to shout people down just because they wanted to continue with their Warden. They're not using him/her in DA2, I get it but screaming about how you're so glad we're not playing with that character because you're done with it is not a compelling point.

I'm not going to go crazy and say that i'm never going to buy the game or burn down Bioware's headquarters over it either. It's just as crazy on that end of the spectrum. However, quite a few of you seem to be on the other end of it and don't even notice because you have to be right or something.

Instead of a sequel, I'm down to hoping for some DLC that continues the Warden's tale before DA2 comes out. Not the end of the world but not the happiest turn of events either.

I think many are hoping for a second expansion before DA2. I am as well. Not holding my breath, though.

[Riona45]

Anathemic wrote...


Might be the style of role-playing then. My point is that this slight change to you is a major difference to me. Even though I like to play the role I'm given (hence role-playing) I want that role to be simple and ambigious so even though I still have a restriction (as role-playing is naturally) I still have enough room to improvise and flesh out the character to make it my own.

DA:O gave me this because I didn't have to stick with one family name all the time and it was barely referenced in the game. I was "Warden" rather than "Warden Cousland".

See, I don't get what you mean when you say the "Warden" title is ambiguous.  Not really, in the sense that there's no room for interpretation about the PC being a Grey Warden.  You are a Grey Warden, there's no way to not be one.  Being a Grey Warden is in fact much more "loaded" than simply having a particular surname.

[AlanC9]

Kordaris wrote...
-it seems what was the major source of fun for me in DAO-the backstories, character creation, was erased from what is called its sequel.

Fixed for ya.

[Anathemic]

In Exile wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

My preferences arent absolute, but i cast them as objective. I wanted the Dragon Age franchise/story/genre/whatever you want to call it to be it's own. I saw it (some others did to) a new kind of RPG different from all the other RPG's which can be barely be called RPGs (Fallout 3, may or may not agree with me), a return to roots. Sure DA:O was stated as this return to roots and DA2 wasn't but still the first Halo was stated at Combat Evolved and Combat Evolved lasted throughout the remainder of the Halo series, why couldn't DA2?

What are you talking about?

I'm speaking about a very specific thing: for RPing purposes, the name Hawke in and of itself is superior and the label Warden for how I RP. You think otherwise. Awesome.

What I am pointing out is that this mere thing, with the name, not with PC VO, not with gameplay, not with Origins, can totally suck for one player and be awesome for another.

So what I am saying is that you're absolutely not justified in saying, without any qualifier that it is your own opinion, that the name Hawke restricts roleplaying any more than any other specific moniker used to address the player would.

You are right there, but as part of the vocal minority there is a reason to express my opinion on this in hopes for a change. It may not or it may happen, regardless there is no reason to bash people and put them down for having a different viewpoint.

[Anathemic]

Riona45 wrote...

Anathemic wrote...


Might be the style of role-playing then. My point is that this slight change to you is a major difference to me. Even though I like to play the role I'm given (hence role-playing) I want that role to be simple and ambigious so even though I still have a restriction (as role-playing is naturally) I still have enough room to improvise and flesh out the character to make it my own.

DA:O gave me this because I didn't have to stick with one family name all the time and it was barely referenced in the game. I was "Warden" rather than "Warden Cousland".

See, I don't get what you mean when you say the "Warden" title is ambiguous.  Not really, in the sense that there's no room for interpretation about the PC being a Grey Warden.  You are a Grey Warden, there's no way to not be one.  Being a Grey Warden is in fact much more "loaded" than simply having a particular surname.

There is room for interpretation 'Who is the Grey Warden' is the grey warden elf, human, dwarf, what family did the grey warden come from, etc. With Hawke you ask "Who is Hawke" and the answer is "It's this guy, y'know over here the human dude that saved kirkwall"

[YohkoOhno]

Kordaris wrote...
Honestly? I hate conventions. I played and play only with friends.

That didn't change the fact that TSR modules had pre-generated characters and the fans loved having them.

I should also dig up the old Dragon article from Gary Gygax where he says RPGs aren't just about role-playing, but role assumption, where you assume the role of another.

[Riona45]

In Exile wrote...

Which is brutal if you had an origin character that didn't want the title and was literally conscripted into the order? I was a Cousland, dammit, that's how I saw myself, that's how I wanted to introduce myself, and that's how I wanted to be addressed. I never once saw my character as a Grey Warden, despite the game trying as hard as possible to tell me that's what I should think.

Yeah, exactly.  Having the surname Hawke really doesn't imply anything about the character.  Being known as "the Warden" (as in "Grey Warden") implies quite a lot about the character's role in the world and what they have to do.  So, if one doesn't like feeling forced into a role, preferring "Warden" over "[surname]" seems a bit backwards to me.

[Saibh]

Riona45 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Which is brutal if you had an origin character that didn't want the title and was literally conscripted into the order? I was a Cousland, dammit, that's how I saw myself, that's how I wanted to introduce myself, and that's how I wanted to be addressed. I never once saw my character as a Grey Warden, despite the game trying as hard as possible to tell me that's what I should think.

Yeah, exactly.  Having the surname Hawke really doesn't imply anything about the character.  Being known as "the Warden" (as in "Grey Warden") implies quite a lot about the character's role in the world and what they have to do.  So, if one doesn't like feeling forced into a role, preferring "Warden" over "[surname]" seems a bit backwards to me.

Agreed: you can make no assumptions on a person based on a surname (except they had a smith in their family at one point or another). Being called "Warden" however, doesn't leave you a lot of room edgewise. They are constantly inferring your status, your history, the tradition of your order, and so on. Everyone has a surname (EDIT: No, that's hyperbole--alright, everyone here, and many people in Thedas--I don't recall if there are non-bastards that simply don't have last names). Not everyone is a Grey Warden.

Modifié par Saibh, 25 juillet 2010 - 02:40 .

[AlanC9]

Kordaris wrote...

Well it was rather obvious I was talking from my perspective Holmes.Although certainly many others feel the same.

That's exactly the point, Watson. Language should be used with precision. I know it feels better to state your own preferences as if they're Universal Truths, but it doesn't make your point more convincing. If anything, it has the opposite effect. Or worse, you get bogged down the way In Exile and Anathemic just did.

Modifié par AlanC9, 25 juillet 2010 - 02:40 .