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[smudboy]

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

smudboy wrote...


-(e.g. "I've tried everything I can think of..." to keep critics from asking why a particular action was not taken).
-Characters ignoring or avoiding obvious solutions to their problems, provided those solutions are obvious to the characters, and not just the viewers.

Did you write the article on plot holes on Wikipedia or is that just your source?

Yes.  Yes I did.  It's one big massive smudboy conspiracy that I quote an article I myself have written on the definition of a literary term...

<_<

[Throw_this_away]

smudboy wrote...


When the game explain you couldn't mine the relay?

It is a simple course of action.  Look up what a plot hole is.

I just need to say this:  Your "plot hole", your strategy of mining the relay and waiting for the collectors to exit the relay is probably the dumbest tactic I have heard in a long long time.  And the fact the you deffend it as you do is surprising.  

TIM: I want the collector/reaper tech to study so that we can use it against the reapers. We need it now.  The end of the galaxy is at stake, and we need that tech asap so that we can research it before the reapers come.  
Mirnda: Heavy risk.  But I agree, the tech may be invaluable.
TIM: the trick will be in convinging shep that going after the collectors into the relay is the key.
Miranda: we could wait aoutside the relay and let the collectors come to us.  
TIM: What?!?!?  Are you stupid?  A moron?!?!?
Miranda: But... we could set up a fleet of mines...
TIM: Great idea!  Then that the entire galaxy will be alerted to our presence,  So that they can start asking questions,  So that ships can start investigating our actions, and the next thing we know the alliance is down our throats.  When in the last ****ing numbers of years you worked for us have we been so open in our operations.  We don;t have the resources to sit around waiting for a ship to come out of the relay. 
Miranda: It was just and idea...
TIM: SHUT UP!!!  And what if we waited for years?  What if the collector ships have some other way to monitor the relay... they would know we were there, and they would wait us out.  We need the collector/reaper tech NOW... the end of the galaxy is at stake.  We need to go in when they are not expecting it and hit them first. 
Miranda: but that is risky...
TIM: You dumb bimbo... and so is the possibility of the collectors detecting our mine field and sending their own reaper strength nuke minefield through the omega relay to fry our ships and minefield.  Remember, the relay cannot be destroyed, but we can.  And even if we did capture the collector ship... even if it was in one piece... we can't risk the possibility of them self-destructing their base remotely.  That base is our main goal.  We need it intact.  We need to take it down with a precision strike.  Normally this would be a risky scenario... but Shep is a god-damned galactic hero, and he has the finest team in the galaxy. 
Miranda: This is a suicide mission.  But If anyone can do it... it is shep. 

Modifié par Throw_this_away, 29 juillet 2010 - 01:38 .

[smudboy]

What a wonderful work of fiction.

Try arguing instead of inventing some kind of scene in your brain.

If you don't know basic detective work, read a novel, watch a police procedural drama, or just use your head.

[Throw_this_away]

smudboy wrote...

What a wonderful work of fiction.

Try arguing instead of inventing some kind of scene in your brain.

If you don't know basic detective work, read a novel, watch a police procedural drama, or just use your head.

let me grab my spoon... open you r mouth because you obviously are still spoon fed by you mom. 

[smudboy]

Throw_this_away wrote...

smudboy wrote...

What a wonderful work of fiction.

Try arguing instead of inventing some kind of scene in your brain.

If you don't know basic detective work, read a novel, watch a police procedural drama, or just use your head.

let me grab my spoon... open you r mouth because you obviously are still spoon fed by you mom. 

And I should eat your crap?  Please.  Learn what a plot hole is and then attempt to argue what you think the idea isn't.

[Throw_this_away]

smudboy wrote...

And I should eat your crap?  Please.  Learn what a plot hole is and then attempt to argue what you think the idea isn't.

Dude, I have read your posts.  You have NO IDEA what a plot hole is.  It makes me laugh really.  Carry on.  

Modifié par Throw_this_away, 29 juillet 2010 - 01:58 .

[xXRaFFiCaXx]

Mine fielding the relay would be like mine fielding every tunnel and cave in Afghanistan. For one, the powers that be would definitely not let this come to pass, and I'm sure that there would have to be ALOT of mines to even dent one of those collector monstrosities.
It doesn't help that theyre already out reaping humans, so what would mining their lair do? Its just a huge waste of resources that only Cerberus would be able to do, since its out in the Terminous systems..

Modifié par xXRaFFiCaXx, 29 juillet 2010 - 02:04 .

[smudboy]

Throw_this_away wrote...

smudboy wrote...

And I should eat your crap?  Please.  Learn what a plot hole is and then attempt to argue what you think the idea isn't.

Dude, I have read your posts.  You have NO IDEA what a plot hole is.  It makes me laugh really.  Carry on.  

Dude, I have read your posts.  You have NO ARGUMENT.  You're wasting your breath.

Here's what a plot hole is.  There are other reasons.  But these are relevant to the point I'm making:
-(e.g. "I've tried everything I can think of..." to keep critics from asking why a particular action was not taken).
-Characters ignoring or avoiding obvious solutions to their problems, provided those solutions are obvious to the characters, and not just the viewers.

[Whatever42]

Smudboy, your interpretation of the definition of plot hole is so large that there is not a work of fiction on Earth that is not rife with them. That renders the term meaningless. Debating you is equally meaningless because you refuse to budge on your interpretation and summarily reject all other viewpoints.



Without being able to agree on the terms of the debate means that the debate is just two people talking past each other.



And even if someone does use your definition and presents contrary evidence, you just dismiss it arbitrarily with insults or repeat yourself until the other person gives up trying to communicate with you. If you're not a troll, you're a very strange person.

[smudboy]

xXRaFFiCaXx wrote...

Mine fielding the relay would be like mine fielding every tunnel and cave in Afghanistan. For one, the powers that be would definitely not let this come to pass, and I'm sure that there would have to be ALOT of mines to even dent one of those collector monstrosities. It doesn't help that they

That analogy is...bizarre.

If you want to use the caev analogy, it would be like mining ONE cave in Afghanistan, if there was only one cave.

What powers that be?  Aria?  No one uses the relay...except the Collectors.

There would be a lot of mines.

re already out reaping humans, so what would mining their lair do? Its just a huge waste of resources that only Cerberus would be able to do, since its out in the Terminous systems..

Mining the relay would potentially damage their ship.  I'm sure there'd be other ways of being able to detect their presence, instead of wondering what random colony they'll hit next.  It's a pro-active choice to prevent your enemy from going to the place only they come and go from.

It is not a huge waste of resources.  If the SR2 can house 50 probes, and you can spend massive time and money on mining a planet, then dropping a few mines, stealth satellites, comm buoys, etc, near the Omega 4 relay isn't that big an endeavour.

[smudboy]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Smudboy, your interpretation of the definition of plot hole is so large that there is not a work of fiction on Earth that is not rife with them. That renders the term meaningless. Debating you is equally meaningless because you refuse to budge on your interpretation and summarily reject all other viewpoints.

Sorry, but what is my interpretation and definition of a plot hole?  I'm just quoting wikipedia and tropes.  If you have a problem with the definition, go and argue it with them.

No, that statement you made is so broad you're making stuff up.

1) It's not my interpretation.  It's the definition, and I agree with it.  You do not.  Again, your argument isn't with me.
2) As soon as you have an argument that counters my point, then I'd be happy to grant you a point.  You've yet to do that.

Without being able to agree on the terms of the debate means that the debate is just two people talking past each other.

And even if someone does use your definition and presents contrary evidence, you just dismiss it arbitrarily with insults or repeat yourself until the other person gives up trying to communicate with you. If you're not a troll, you're a very strange person.

Where's this evidence?  All I've seen are fabricated imaginations.

[Throw_this_away]

smudboy wrote...
Dude, I have read your posts.  You have NO ARGUMENT.  You're wasting your breath.

Here's what a plot hole is.  There are other reasons.  But these are relevant to the point I'm making:
-(e.g. "I've tried everything I can think of..." to keep critics from asking why a particular action was not taken).
-Characters ignoring or avoiding obvious solutions to their problems, provided those solutions are obvious to the characters, and not just the viewers.

Arguing with you is like arguing with a brick wall. I 100% agree that it is a waste of breath.   Do yourself a favor and look up "Confirmation bias."  Then look in the mirror. 

You do amuse me to no end though.  Narcissistic much?

Modifié par Throw_this_away, 29 juillet 2010 - 02:13 .

[xXRaFFiCaXx]

smudboy wrote...

xXRaFFiCaXx wrote...

Mine fielding the relay would be like mine fielding every tunnel and cave in Afghanistan. For one, the powers that be would definitely not let this come to pass, and I'm sure that there would have to be ALOT of mines to even dent one of those collector monstrosities. It doesn't help that they

That analogy is...bizarre.

If you want to use the caev analogy, it would be like mining ONE cave in Afghanistan, if there was only one cave.

What powers that be?  Aria?  No one uses the relay...except the Collectors.

There would be a lot of mines.

re already out reaping humans, so what would mining their lair do? Its just a huge waste of resources that only Cerberus would be able to do, since its out in the Terminous systems..

Mining the relay would potentially damage their ship.  I'm sure there'd be other ways of being able to detect their presence, instead of wondering what random colony they'll hit next.  It's a pro-active choice to prevent your enemy from going to the place only they come and go from.

It is not a huge waste of resources.  If the SR2 can house 50 probes, and you can spend massive time and money on mining a planet, then dropping a few mines, stealth satellites, comm buoys, etc, near the Omega 4 relay isn't that big an endeavour.

"a few" mines aren't going to cut it. What I'm saying is that any passing ship would be put in harms way, and citadel races may decide to take action. IF I understand correctly, the relay isn't even activated all too often, or it wouldn't be such a big deal when it does, meaning that the collector ship seems to use it very infrequently. The idea that slapping some mines in front of their front door would stop them from going around reaping people doesn't make sense. Its like a bandaide on an amputated limb. Also, how would you hide these mines from the collector ship? Can't it just detonate them and move on its merry way? It sure spotted the Normandy in stealth easy enough. 

To me, from a investor's (TIM's) standpoint, it seems like a high risk, high cost, low reward operation.

[smudboy]

Throw_this_away wrote...

smudboy wrote...
Dude, I have read your posts.  You have NO ARGUMENT.  You're wasting your breath.

Here's what a plot hole is.  There are other reasons.  But these are relevant to the point I'm making:
-(e.g. "I've tried everything I can think of..." to keep critics from asking why a particular action was not taken).
-Characters ignoring or avoiding obvious solutions to their problems, provided those solutions are obvious to the characters, and not just the viewers.

Arguing with you is like arguing with a brick wall. I 100% agree that it is a waste of breath.   Do yourself a favor and look up "Confirmation bias."  Then look in the mirror. 

You do amuse me to no end though.  Narcissistic much?

When an argument is clear, simple and concise, with easily observable evidence, I tend to believe it.

You can call that whatever you like.

As soon as you have an argument, please make it.  If not, please shut up.

[smudboy]

xXRaFFiCaXx wrote...
"a few" mines aren't going to cut it. What I'm saying is that any passing ship would be put in harms way, and citadel races may decide to take action. IF I understand correctly, the relay isn't even activated all too often, or it wouldn't be such a big deal when it does, meaning that the collector ship seems to use it very infrequently. The idea that slapping some mines in front of their front door would stop them from going around reaping people doesn't make sense. Its like a bandaide on an amputated limb. Also, how would you hide these mines from the collector ship? Can't it just detonate them and move on its merry way? It sure spotted the Normandy in stealth easy enough. 

1. Why wouldn't a few mines not cut it?
2. We want passing ships to be put in harms way. They're mines.  Considering the only ship that goes near the relay are the Collectors, I think this is the intended outcome.
3. This is not a bandaid on an amputated limb.  This is a explosive blockade to a doorway only our enemy uses.  It can also be a stealth intel, or a stealth intel explosive blockade.  It's the equivalent of police doing recon in an area of interest.
4. I do not know the specific numbers of or technology involved in stealth, mines, spy satellites, or the sort.  I'd imagine that would be something that could be easily explained, let alone researched or purchased.

To me, from a investor's (TIM's) standpoint, it seems like a high risk, high cost, low reward operation.

I'd agree, but in comparisong to building the SR2 and resurrecting the dead?  Considering the amount of money and time this would take to do, it's a very simple and cost/time effective means of gaining intel, and potentially slowing down/stopping our enemy.

[Throw_this_away]

smudboy wrote...

If you want to use the caev analogy, it would be like mining ONE cave in Afghanistan, if there was only one cave.

This kills me.  Funny stuff. 

If you want to use that analogy, it is like a top secret blacks ops team, wanted by the american government, that is camping outside a one-way subway station, in a heavily populated area, full of criminals, that wold be more than happy to sell out the black ops team to the Americans.   

Modifié par Throw_this_away, 29 juillet 2010 - 02:25 .

[Throw_this_away]

smudboy wrote...

When an argument is clear, simple and concise, with easily observable evidence, I tend to believe it.

As soon as you have an argument, please make it.  If not, please shut up.

where is your evidence?  Where is your argument?  The emperical evidence?  Please show it.  I have only seen your ideas... no facts.   

As soon as you have an argument/evidence, please make it/show it.  If not, please shut up.

[smudboy]

Throw_this_away wrote...

smudboy wrote...

If you want to use the caev analogy, it would be like mining ONE cave in Afghanistan, if there was only one cave.

This kills me.  Funny stuff. 

If you want to use that analogy, it is like a top secret blacks ops team, wanted by the american government, that is camping outside a one-way subway station, in a heavily populated area, full of criminals, that wold be more than happy to sell out the black ops team to the Americans.   

I don't think that's an accurate analogy.

-The Omega 4 Relay[/b] is surrounded by hazard beacons and automated warnings.
-The area around it, let alone any people traveling around it, is not heavily populated

Maybe if your two-way subway station that no one ever uses, which is far away from a populated area, that is surrounded by warnings and hazard beacons, that only one ship has been ever seen using, then that would be closer.

The criminals could not sell out the "black ops team", because they can't contact the Collectors.  And if they could, then great: we have one extra lead to follow.

[Sparda Stonerule]

Throw_this_away wrote...

smudboy wrote...

If you want to use the caev analogy, it would be like mining ONE cave in Afghanistan, if there was only one cave.

This kills me.  Funny stuff. 

If you want to use that analogy, it is like a top secret blacks ops team, wanted by the american government, that is camping outside a one-way subway station, in a heavily populated area, full of criminals, that wold be more than happy to sell out the black ops team to the Americans.   

I thought I went over this before. 

One. Space mines do not exist in the Universe. You always tell people to not make up facts. I'm going to tell you to stop making up tech that does not exist in the narrative.

Two. Ignoring the cost, you have to take into account how many of these non existent mines it would take to sufficiently cover the entire area around the Relay. The Omega 4 Relay is quite a bit bigger than every other Relay. Not to mention that it's common to appear any area near a relay after the jump in a 1000 KM radius. So you would have to cover that entire area of space just to make sure 1 mine would hit it. Also I doubt these non existent mines would do that much damage to the ship. The only weapons that even put a dent in the Collector Ship are the Thanix cannon which is a Turian Weapon based on Reaper Tech. The other weapon was the Normandy's Torpedos. Granted I don't know what the explosive yield or kinetic force would be of a weapon that doesn't exist, but traditionally mines don't have as much explosive or kinetic power as Reaper Lasers or Torpedoes.

Then there's the fact that the Collectors probably know where they are going even before they jump through the Relay. We already know they have FTL. So one would expect that as soon as they jump the Relay they will go into FTL as fast as they can. Granted I'm just speculating but it makes more sense then brining up non existent tech. 

So my point is Smud, if you don't want people making up things about the games then I suggest you don't make up tech and speculate on how much damage that made up tech will do. I don't mind your arguments, and I certainly don't mind you pointing out when people are making stuff up. Just don't be a hypocrite

[xXRaFFiCaXx]

smudboy wrote...


1. Why wouldn't a few mines not cut it?
2. We want passing ships to be put in harms way. They're mines.  Considering the only ship that goes near the relay are the Collectors, I think this is the intended outcome.
3. This is not a bandaid on an amputated limb.  This is a explosive blockade to a doorway only our enemy uses.  It can also be a stealth intel, or a stealth intel explosive blockade.  It's the equivalent of police doing recon in an area of interest.
4. I do not know the specific numbers of or technology involved in stealth, mines, spy satellites, or the sort.  I'd imagine that would be something that could be easily explained, let alone researched or purchased.

1.) If this ONE collector ship has been Trolling through the galaxy for two years, surviving despite any hardware that could possibly have been thrown at it, (ex. Defense Battery on Horizon) I don't think a few high explosives will do much more then hinder it. If the goal was to stop the ship cold, a significant amount would be required. Also, remember how huge these relays are. If you can use one by approaching at any vector, tons of mines would be needed.

2.) The only ship we want in harms way is the collector ship. TIM may consider the threat these mines pose to others acceptable, but im sure, lets say, if a council space science team decides to look at the relay and sets them off, TIM may recieve a little more attention then he wishes from citadel races.

3.) Nonetheless, humans would continue to disappear as they were captured, until all the pods on this Collector ship was filled, meaning that even earth would be in jepordy. The only reason the collector ship even retreated through the relay is because it stole Shepard's crew so that he would follow it. Like I said, the mines have a high probability of causing no damage until its too late.

4.) if they had stealth technology that worked against the collectors, I'm sure they would have used it. Shepard sure spent enough resources upgrading everything else with the best experimental technology. Also, even if the mines could be "easily explained," would you want them to be? Personally I dont think: "Oh, the mines got it, guess thats all, The End" is more exciting then attacking the collector base. The game could just as easily explain why space mines were never developed because of their lack of use.

Personally, I don't think reviving Shepard to stop the collector was TIMs only goal. He's on a serious powr trip, and wants to control Shepard. (The beginning and ending cinematics explain a bit)

[theelementslayer]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

Throw_this_away wrote...

smudboy wrote...

If you want to use the caev analogy, it would be like mining ONE cave in Afghanistan, if there was only one cave.

This kills me.  Funny stuff. 

If you want to use that analogy, it is like a top secret blacks ops team, wanted by the american government, that is camping outside a one-way subway station, in a heavily populated area, full of criminals, that wold be more than happy to sell out the black ops team to the Americans.   

I thought I went over this before. 

One. Space mines do not exist in the Universe. You always tell people to not make up facts. I'm going to tell you to stop making up tech that does not exist in the narrative.

Two. Ignoring the cost, you have to take into account how many of these non existent mines it would take to sufficiently cover the entire area around the Relay. The Omega 4 Relay is quite a bit bigger than every other Relay. Not to mention that it's common to appear any area near a relay after the jump in a 1000 KM radius. So you would have to cover that entire area of space just to make sure 1 mine would hit it. Also I doubt these non existent mines would do that much damage to the ship. The only weapons that even put a dent in the Collector Ship are the Thanix cannon which is a Turian Weapon based on Reaper Tech. The other weapon was the Normandy's Torpedos. Granted I don't know what the explosive yield or kinetic force would be of a weapon that doesn't exist, but traditionally mines don't have as much explosive or kinetic power as Reaper Lasers or Torpedoes.

Then there's the fact that the Collectors probably know where they are going even before they jump through the Relay. We already know they have FTL. So one would expect that as soon as they jump the Relay they will go into FTL as fast as they can. Granted I'm just speculating but it makes more sense then brining up non existent tech. 

So my point is Smud, if you don't want people making up things about the games then I suggest you don't make up tech and speculate on how much damage that made up tech will do. I don't mind your arguments, and I certainly don't mind you pointing out when people are making stuff up. Just don't be a hypocrite

Nono please let him continue, I enjoy his arguments alot. They are great for a laugh at a boring day of work.

Oh and smudboy, just to add like you always do to me. 

Your wrong, they cant mine the relay for many reasons. And the most important is because I dont like it

[Sparda Stonerule]

theelementslayer wrote...

Nono please let him continue, I enjoy his arguments alot. They are great for a laugh at a boring day of work.

Oh and smudboy, just to add like you always do to me. 

Your wrong, they cant mine the relay for many reasons. And the most important is because I dont like it

All I wanted to do is point out that he is a hypocrite who generally does ignore good arguments and points made against him. I doubt you have to worry I doubt he'll respond to me calling him out on arguing over non existent tech anyway. He'd much rather tear apart weaker arguments even though he claims to listen to people.

I just wanted to toss my argument in there to let people know he's kind of a hypocrite. Granted most people know but I'd like everyone to know. That being said he's free to argue all day and all night. It's just in this case I think he falls rather short given the fact that he's making things up.

[theelementslayer]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

theelementslayer wrote...

Nono please let him continue, I enjoy his arguments alot. They are great for a laugh at a boring day of work.

Oh and smudboy, just to add like you always do to me. 

Your wrong, they cant mine the relay for many reasons. And the most important is because I dont like it

All I wanted to do is point out that he is a hypocrite who generally does ignore good arguments and points made against him. I doubt you have to worry I doubt he'll respond to me calling him out on arguing over non existent tech anyway. He'd much rather tear apart weaker arguments even though he claims to listen to people.

I just wanted to toss my argument in there to let people know he's kind of a hypocrite. Granted most people know but I'd like everyone to know. That being said he's free to argue all day and all night. It's just in this case I think he falls rather short given the fact that he's making things up.

Ya twice hes stopped debating with me when I threw out a nice argument. Sad really, I kinda enjoyed it, looked forward to what way he could interpret my argument.

But on topic. Plothole of ME2 hmmmmmmm. How can shepard get all the damn girls, hes like Hugh Hefner of space

[Throw_this_away]

smudboy wrote...

Throw_this_away wrote...

smudboy wrote...

If you want to use the caev analogy, it would be like mining ONE cave in Afghanistan, if there was only one cave.

This kills me.  Funny stuff. 

If you want to use that analogy, it is like a top secret blacks ops team, wanted by the american government, that is camping outside a one-way subway station, in a heavily populated area, full of criminals, that wold be more than happy to sell out the black ops team to the Americans.   

I don't think that's an accurate analogy.

-The Omega 4 Relay[/b] is surrounded by hazard beacons and automated warnings.
-The area around it, let alone any people traveling around it, is not heavily populated

Maybe if your two-way subway station that no one ever uses, which is far away from a populated area, that is surrounded by warnings and hazard beacons, that only one ship has been ever seen using, then that would be closer.

The criminals could not sell out the "black ops team", because they can't contact the Collectors.  And if they could, then great: we have one extra lead to follow.

The confirmation bias is strong in you my friend. 

The omega relay is next to Omega station (full of all the mercs that now love shep.. you obviously need spoon feeding here), next to a fuel depot, and next to another relay.  If you call that far from a populated area then you are a moron. 

And the mercs won't likley sell the location to the collectors (how could they?).  Do I need to feed this to you too?

Why is a preemptive precision strike a good one? Think Pearl Harbour.  "Who Dares Wins." Do some reading.  Get educated. 

Why is is retarted for a special ops team to wait for an enemy?  For the alliance... your mining strategy is a good one.  They have the time, and they have the resources.  For a small covert elete force with limited resources that is facing time pressure in a hostile, populated solar system... do the math

[Sparda Stonerule]

theelementslayer wrote...

But on topic. Plothole of ME2 hmmmmmmm. How can shepard get all the damn girls, hes like Hugh Hefner of space

I thought you knew the galaxy revolves around Shepard. Besides I bet he/she just uses so top secret experimental deodorant. Whenever anyone gets a wiff of that they just fall into line. Well either that or he's the only person who is allowed to walk and talk and move from place to place with any free will. People dig the freedom Shepard has. They just want to "get on his ship" so they can move around. Or if you require a female joke, they just want to "get in her hold" so they can move around.