581 réponses à ce sujet

[theelementslayer]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

theelementslayer wrote...

But on topic. Plothole of ME2 hmmmmmmm. How can shepard get all the damn girls, hes like Hugh Hefner of space

I thought you knew the galaxy revolves around Shepard. Besides I bet he/she just uses so top secret experimental deodorant. Whenever anyone gets a wiff of that they just fall into line. Well either that or he's the only person who is allowed to walk and talk and move from place to place with any free will. People dig the freedom Shepard has. They just want to "get on his ship" so they can move around. Or if you require a female joke, they just want to "get in her hold" so they can move around.  

Maybe he uses this

[xXRaFFiCaXx]

Secret deodorant..... Implications..... Unpleasant.



Old Spice + Axe + Hormone Extract?

[smudboy]

Throw_this_away wrote...

smudboy wrote...

When an argument is clear, simple and concise, with easily observable evidence, I tend to believe it.

As soon as you have an argument, please make it.  If not, please shut up.

where is your evidence?  Where is your argument?  The emperical evidence?  Please show it.  I have only seen your ideas... no facts.   

As soon as you have an argument/evidence, please make it/show it.  If not, please shut up.

1. Characters (TIM, Shepard, EDI, Jacob, Thane, etc.) know of the connection between the Omega-4 Relay and the Collectors.

And that should pretty much do it.  If there's a connection between our Bad Guys, and a physical location, you scope out the location.  This is common sense.  Almost every crime drama is like this.  The other leads are fine, but you try all leads, and not wait for the plot to happen (as it occurs with TIM->Shepard.)

But wait, there's more:

2a. TIM has you go around collecting random people for no reason while colonies are being abducted (Ferris Fields, New Canton.)

If the point of the story is to Stop the Collectors from taking human colonies, we're failing here.  Those colonies had no story relevance, and were there to show progression.  The simplest thing to do is to track the Collectors and blow them away, not get people for a ship battle.  Whether that's stopping them with the ship, mines, or any other way, or just damaging them in some way, that's one closer step to victory.

2b. All we know of the Collectors is they have (that) a Cruiser.

Again, we want to Stop the Collectors.  Well, all we know so far is the Collectors = a ship.  Instead of having them just randomly target colonies, we can target an area we know they'll be.  It's more efficient, and simpler, then getting people we have no clue of what they'll be doing.  On a spaceship.  To fight a spaceship battle.  In space.

3. Staking out the relay isn't hard

If we have 50 locations for probes to launch at a planet, then we can sell those off to buy/research/manufacture mines.  If we can stripmine every planet in the galaxy, we can mine a relay no one uses (except our enemy.) The time and effort is the equivalent of mining a planet for resources.  The yield can be anything from common explosives to nuclear.  If mining isn't the issue, then spy satellites, comm buoys can be used, in much the same way there are already numerous warning beacons there.  We need to know where our enemy is, and we need to locate them to do so.

4. No one goes near the Relay...except our enemy.

No one does.  There are warning beacons to tell others to stay away.  It's known for thousands of years that ships going in there don't return.  But the Collectors use is.  So why not at least spy on the thing?  This is basic detective work.

And this is what make it a plot hole: a simple solution to our problem.  Especially, in comparison to another more complex, and illogical course of action (getting random soldiers.)

Modifié par smudboy, 29 juillet 2010 - 03:10 .

[Sparda Stonerule]

Throw_this_away wrote...

The confirmation bias is strong in you my friend. 

The omega relay is next to Omega station (full of all the mercs that now love shep.. you obviously need spoon feeding here), next to a fuel depot, and next to another relay.  If you call that far from a populated area then you are a moron. 

And the mercs won't likley sell the location to the collectors (how could they?).  Do I need to feed this to you too?

Why is a preemptive precision strike a good one? Think Pearl Harbour.  "Who Dares Wins." Do some reading.  Get educated. 

Why is is retarted for a special ops team to wait for an enemy?  For the alliance... your mining strategy is a good one.  They have the time, and they have the resources.  For a small covert elete force with limited resources that is facing time pressure in a hostile, populated solar system... do the math

I can't believe you are making me do this. You are making me defend Smud even after I put up a good argument. You just had to put up a really bad reply didn't you? Well then let me "educate" you.

Saying that the Relay is "next" to the station is utterly false. Just because it looks close to these things doesn't mean it is. Why don't you head to the local cluster and observe for yourself how close the planets look. Then do some actual research and see for yourself how "close" they actually are. Oh wait they aren't.

Also Mercs do not ALWAYS contact the collectors. They get in touch when they need something. However even the game says they aren't common and they only show up when your "sacrifice is great enough". This would imply most Mercs wouldn't be willing to pay the cost of needing them. I also highly doubt mercs would commonly run into the type of things that the Collectors would want to pay for. Sure the Collectors pay well, but what they look for is rather rare.

Everyone knows where the Collectors come from. The Omega 4 Relay. No one can pass through it without dying, we find out that we need an IFF. Even then no Merc group would know where the Collector Ship is at any time. I'm sure the Collectors show up do their business then leave. So no one would know exactly where they are.

*sighs* Pearl Harbor was a gigantic disaster for the Japanese. It drew the Americans into a fight with them. They barely managed to take out any of our ships and they lost all of their air forces there. Why don't you do some reading and get educated on the ramifications of Pearl Harbor.

Remember how well the United States preemptively attacking Iraq went? OH WAIT. We're still in that war even though we were trying to stop a threat before it acted. Oopsie looks like our preemptive strike didn't go so well.

Arguments likes yours are the reason Smud gains so much ground. Heck I'm even on your side and I think you are an idiot.

[smudboy]

Throw_this_away wrote...
The confirmation bias is strong in you my friend. 

How?

The omega relay is next to Omega station (full of all the mercs that now love shep.. you obviously need spoon feeding here), next to a fuel depot, and next to another relay.  If you call that far from a populated area then you are a moron. 

Thanks but no one uses the Omega-4 relay, so it's a moot point.

And the mercs won't likley sell the location to the collectors (how could they?).  Do I need to feed this to you too?

How about an answer?  What would the mercs sell to the Collectors, and how?

Why is a preemptive precision strike a good one? Think Pearl Harbour.  "Who Dares Wins." Do some reading.  Get educated. 

Because people are dying?  Because TIM has us go off picking up stupid peopel for no reason, when we should be tracking down the simplest and best lead?  Hence, plot hole.

Why is is retarted for a special ops team to wait for an enemy?  For the alliance... your mining strategy is a good one. 

So the Alliance is okay, but Cerberus is not?  I don't see the difference.

They have the time, and they have the resources.  For a small covert elete force with limited resources that is facing time pressure in a hostile, populated solar system... do the math

Cerberus has the time.  Shepard's just random picking up useless people.  Shepard also has the time to strip mine every planet in the galaxy.  I see no problem with him taking the time to mine a relay, let alone watching it.

[Sparda Stonerule]

smudboy wrote...

1. Characters (TIM, Shepard, EDI, Jacob, Thane, etc.) know of the connection between the Omega-4 Relay and the Collectors.

And that should pretty much do it.  If there's a connection between our Bad Guys, and a physical location, you scope out the location.  This is common sense.  Almost every crime drama is like this.  The other leads are fine, but you they all leads, and not wait for the plot to happen (as it occurs with TIM->Shepard.)

But wait, there's more:

2a. TIM has you go around collecting random people for no reason while colonies are being abducted (Ferris Fields, New Canton.)

If the point of the story is to Stop the Collectors from taking human colonies, we're failing here.  Those colonies had no story relevance, and were there to show progression.  The simplest thing to do is to track the Collectors and blow them away, not get people for a ship battle.  Whether that's stopping them with the ship, mines, or any other way, or just damaging them in some way, that's one closer step to victory.

2b. All we know of the Collectors is they have (that) a Cruiser.

Again, we want to Stop the Collectors.  Well, all we know so far is the Collectors = a ship.  Instead of having them just randomly target colonies, we can target an area we know they'll be.  It's more efficient, and simpler, then getting people we have no clue of what they'll be doing.  On a spaceship.  To fight a spaceship battle.  In space.

3. Staking out the relay isn't hard

If we have 50 locations for probes to launch at a planet, then we can sell those off to buy/research/manufacture mines.  If we can stripmine every planet in the galaxy, we can mine a relay no one uses (except our enemy.) The time and effort is the equivalent of mining a planet for resources.  The yield can be anything from common explosives to nuclear.  If mining isn't the issue, then spy satellites, comm buoys can be used, in much the same way there are already numerous warning beacons there.  We need to know where our enemy is, and we need to locate them to do so.

4. No one goes near the Relay...except our enemy.

No one does.  There are warning beacons to tell others to stay away.  It's known for thousands of years that ships going in there don't return.  But the Collectors use is.  So why not at least spy on the thing?  This is basic detective work.

And this is what make it a plot hole: a simple solution to our problem.  Especially, in comparison to another more complex, and illogical course of action (getting random soldiers.)

I knew you'd ignore my post. You blazing hypocrite. Your post was fine up until "it's simple to make mines". Yes sure it's easy to make things that do not exist in the Universe. Of course you can speculate how easy something is when it doesn't even exist in the galaxy. Your argument here is losing more and more ground because you are ignoring the fact that you don't want people to make stuff up that doesn't exist, but here you are arguing about mines.

Address my arguments from before and maybe I'll listen to you.

[smudboy]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

I knew you'd ignore my post. You blazing hypocrite. Your post was fine up until "it's simple to make mines". Yes sure it's easy to make things that do not exist in the Universe. Of course you can speculate how easy something is when it doesn't even exist in the galaxy. Your argument here is losing more and more ground because you are ignoring the fact that you don't want people to make stuff up that doesn't exist, but here you are arguing about mines.

Address my arguments from before and maybe I'll listen to you.

http://masseffect.wi...Espionage_Probe

Let's not forget our ship let's us research technology, even alien technology, let alone invent technology, in the production of armor, weapons, shields, special heavy weapons, and upgrades to such.  Creating a proximity bomb in space isn't a massive leap in technology or design.

Modifié par smudboy, 29 juillet 2010 - 03:14 .

[troyk890]

Don't relays have a drift of several thousand kilometers? That would be a pretty big minefield.

[smudboy]

troyk890 wrote...

Don't relays have a drift of several thousand kilometers? That would be a pretty big minefield.

Right.  I'm referring to entering the Omega-4 relay, not exiting from...whatever relay is on the other side.  Although it's possible whatever relay is over there also uses the same IFF protocols to account for drift (there was no mention of it.)

[xXRaFFiCaXx]

smudboy wrote...

1. Characters (TIM, Shepard, EDI, Jacob, Thane, etc.) know of the connection between the Omega-4 Relay and the Collectors.

And that should pretty much do it.  If there's a connection between our Bad Guys, and a physical location, you scope out the location.  This is common sense.  Almost every crime drama is like this.  The other leads are fine, but you they all leads, and not wait for the plot to happen (as it occurs with TIM->Shepard.)

But wait, there's more:

2a. TIM has you go around collecting random people for no reason while colonies are being abducted (Ferris Fields, New Canton.)

If the point of the story is to Stop the Collectors from taking human colonies, we're failing here.  Those colonies had no story relevance, and were there to show progression.  The simplest thing to do is to track the Collectors and blow them away, not get people for a ship battle.  Whether that's stopping them with the ship, mines, or any other way, or just damaging them in some way, that's one closer step to victory.

2b. All we know of the Collectors is they have (that) a Cruiser.

Again, we want to Stop the Collectors.  Well, all we know so far is the Collectors = a ship.  Instead of having them just randomly target colonies, we can target an area we know they'll be.  It's more efficient, and simpler, then getting people we have no clue of what they'll be doing.  On a spaceship.  To fight a spaceship battle.  In space.

3. Staking out the relay isn't hard

If we have 50 locations for probes to launch at a planet, then we can sell those off to buy/research/manufacture mines.  If we can stripmine every planet in the galaxy, we can mine a relay no one uses (except our enemy.) The time and effort is the equivalent of mining a planet for resources.  The yield can be anything from common explosives to nuclear.  If mining isn't the issue, then spy satellites, comm buoys can be used, in much the same way there are already numerous warning beacons there.  We need to know where our enemy is, and we need to locate them to do so.

4. No one goes near the Relay...except our enemy.

No one does.  There are warning beacons to tell others to stay away.  It's known for thousands of years that ships going in there don't return.  But the Collectors use is.  So why not at least spy on the thing?  This is basic detective work.

And this is what make it a plot hole: a simple solution to our problem.  Especially, in comparison to another more complex, and illogical course of action (getting random soldiers.)

The main issues I have with this arguement is that you seem to underestimate the strength of the collectors. Since the council races won't get involved, and the Terminus systems simply don't give a sh*t, the only ones trying to stop them are Cerberus, Shepard, and to a lesser extent (limited by colonization laws and such) the Alliance. Tracking, destroying the collectors, hell, even FINDING the collectors is much harder then you let on. The fact that the collectors reaped so many colonies before the anyone even learned that it was collectors that was doing it proves this. 

The protagonists have no idea where the collectors are going to hit next, so setting up an ambush is pointless, especially when the target can easily escape into FTL travel or blow the offending ships away easily. Even if Shepard, TIM, Alliance ignored all the colonies, let them get reaped, and set up all their forces outside the relay, theres no sure way of knowing if they can finish it off in time before it makes the jump, therefore, following it is the only sure way of destroying them and trying to rescue colonists.

Not to mention that this situation is so bogus due to the fact that cerberus and the alliance would have to play nice, and that such a large armed presence would start a war with the terminous system.

[theelementslayer]

smudboy wrote...

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

I knew you'd ignore my post. You blazing hypocrite. Your post was fine up until "it's simple to make mines". Yes sure it's easy to make things that do not exist in the Universe. Of course you can speculate how easy something is when it doesn't even exist in the galaxy. Your argument here is losing more and more ground because you are ignoring the fact that you don't want people to make stuff up that doesn't exist, but here you are arguing about mines.

Address my arguments from before and maybe I'll listen to you.

http://masseffect.wi...Espionage_Probe

Neuclear probes is your answer? Seriously. TIM is ruthless, cunning and amazingly cold but I dont think he would do this. The ramifications are too numerous. Cerberus is already blacklisted they put nukes everywhere and the council might delclare war on them, or the terminus systems. Shep doesnt need another problem.

As someone said before the cost vs benefit. Sure it destroys the ship, we dont know how many they have, and TIM wants the base. Not just the ship destroyed. He tells you at the base

Even if they could build them, all of them, 1000 km radius, the time to lay them, the drift that they will go. Its just not feasible. 

The cost vs benifit isnt worth it

[Sparda Stonerule]

smudboy wrote...

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

I knew you'd ignore my post. You blazing hypocrite. Your post was fine up until "it's simple to make mines". Yes sure it's easy to make things that do not exist in the Universe. Of course you can speculate how easy something is when it doesn't even exist in the galaxy. Your argument here is losing more and more ground because you are ignoring the fact that you don't want people to make stuff up that doesn't exist, but here you are arguing about mines.

Address my arguments from before and maybe I'll listen to you.

http://masseffect.wi...Espionage_Probe

Let's not forget our ship let's us research technology, even alien technology, let alone invent technology, in the production of armor, weapons, shields, special heavy weapons, and upgrades to such.  Creating a proximity bomb in space isn't a massive leap in technology or design.

Smud I went over the Espionage probe thing before as well. In this very same thread. A probe mixed with a nuke designed to detonate if captured is not a mine. 

Besides of course making up tech is possible, but no one has done it in the actual narrative. I prefer to stick to the narrative for actual proof of ideas. I thought you did too. But now I can see you are in the boat of, well it can't be THAT hard why not do it? Anyway if you were to set up mines the best way to do it would be to link them with a mesh that collapses in on itself as soon as some outside force touches it. That way all the mines would come flying in and all hit the ship. Oh man I just thought of some tech that shouldn't be too hard since they made mass effect fields. While we are at it, why don't we go back to Mass Effect 1 and make a weapon where we can disable Saren when we meet him. I mean we know he's going to be on Virmire, why not be prepared for that? Oh right because the tech doesn't exist.

Saying that tech "should" be possible is a cop out. It's a cop out that you have called others out for and I sincerely hope you never do again unless you agree that unless it exists in the Universe you can't use it in an actual debate.

[smudboy]

xXRaFFiCaXx wrote...
The main issues I have with this arguement is that you seem to underestimate the strength of the collectors. Since the council races won't get involved, and the Terminus systems simply don't give a sh*t, the only ones trying to stop them are Cerberus, Shepard, and to a lesser extent (limited by colonization laws and such) the Alliance. Tracking, destroying the collectors, hell, even FINDING the collectors is much harder then you let on. The fact that the collectors reaped so many colonies before the anyone even learned that it was collectors that was doing it proves this. 

I'm not gauging how strong they are. I want to find out how strong they are.  Whether the minefield is going to destroy them is not the point, thought that'd be great.  We just want to locate these guys.

Staking out the relay isn't hard. You just watch it.  You can do that by just parking the SR2, have spy satellites, etc.

The fact that the Collectors reaper so many colonies before we knew it was them?  Well now we know it's them.  And we know where to find them.

The protagonists have no idea where the collectors are going to hit next, so setting up an ambush is pointless, especially when the target can easily escape into FTL travel or blow the offending ships away easily. Even if Shepard, TIM, Alliance ignored all the colonies, let them get reaped, and set up all their forces outside the relay, theres no sure way of knowing if they can finish it off in time before it makes the jump, therefore, following it is the only sure way of destroying them and trying to rescue colonists.

I agree, setting up an ambush wherever is pointless, unless it's a point in space we know they'll be.

The Collectors only escaped once, while on Horizon.  Why the SR2, that's in orbit, didn't pursue them, is another huge issue.

Not to mention that this situation is so bogus due to the fact that cerberus and the alliance would have to play nice, and that such a large armed presence would start a war with the terminous system.

I could say the same of the Alliance putting defense towers on a colony world there.  You seem to not realize that no one wants to go near the Omega-4 relay.  Again, we want to stake it out: I recommend mines because mines can potentially damage the collectors.  It could be a simple surveillance, a spy satellite network, etc.  No one would argue or have a problem with putting up a spy satellite disguised as a hazard beacon.  Setup 50 of them.  (psst: they're mines!)

[Throw_this_away]

smudboy wrote...

Throw_this_away wrote...

smudboy wrote...

When an argument is clear, simple and concise, with easily observable evidence, I tend to believe it.

As soon as you have an argument, please make it.  If not, please shut up.

where is your evidence?  Where is your argument?  The emperical evidence?  Please show it.  I have only seen your ideas... no facts.   

As soon as you have an argument/evidence, please make it/show it.  If not, please shut up.

1. Characters (TIM, Shepard, EDI, Jacob, Thane, etc.) know of the connection between the Omega-4 Relay and the Collectors.

And that should pretty much do it.  If there's a connection between our Bad Guys, and a physical location, you scope out the location.  This is common sense.  Almost every crime drama is like this.  The other leads are fine, but you try all leads, and not wait for the plot to happen (as it occurs with TIM->Shepard.)

But wait, there's more:

2a. TIM has you go around collecting random people for no reason while colonies are being abducted (Ferris Fields, New Canton.)

If the point of the story is to Stop the Collectors from taking human colonies, we're failing here.  Those colonies had no story relevance, and were there to show progression.  The simplest thing to do is to track the Collectors and blow them away, not get people for a ship battle.  Whether that's stopping them with the ship, mines, or any other way, or just damaging them in some way, that's one closer step to victory.

2b. All we know of the Collectors is they have (that) a Cruiser.

Again, we want to Stop the Collectors.  Well, all we know so far is the Collectors = a ship.  Instead of having them just randomly target colonies, we can target an area we know they'll be.  It's more efficient, and simpler, then getting people we have no clue of what they'll be doing.  On a spaceship.  To fight a spaceship battle.  In space.

3. Staking out the relay isn't hard

If we have 50 locations for probes to launch at a planet, then we can sell those off to buy/research/manufacture mines.  If we can stripmine every planet in the galaxy, we can mine a relay no one uses (except our enemy.) The time and effort is the equivalent of mining a planet for resources.  The yield can be anything from common explosives to nuclear.  If mining isn't the issue, then spy satellites, comm buoys can be used, in much the same way there are already numerous warning beacons there.  We need to know where our enemy is, and we need to locate them to do so.

4. No one goes near the Relay...except our enemy.

No one does.  There are warning beacons to tell others to stay away.  It's known for thousands of years that ships going in there don't return.  But the Collectors use is.  So why not at least spy on the thing?  This is basic detective work.

And this is what make it a plot hole: a simple solution to our problem.  Especially, in comparison to another more complex, and illogical course of action (getting random soldiers.)

WOW.  You are dense.  Really. 

TIM wants reper tech.  He is not trying to save human colonies.  He thinks the best way to get reaper tech is a precision strike to disable the base.  He is leading Shep in this direction the entire game.  Shep is trying to save lives.  TIM is trying to learn more about reaper tech. If he will actually use that tech to help or hinder humans... is yet to be revealed.  

This is only a plot hole to you because you have a confirmation bias. 

Modifié par Throw_this_away, 29 juillet 2010 - 03:28 .

[smudboy]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
Smud I went over the Espionage probe thing before as well. In this very same thread. A probe mixed with a nuke designed to detonate if captured is not a mine. 

Is it such a stretch to believe in though?  We have a modular device that goes boom given a fixed condition. A mine is a modular device that goes boom based on proximity.

Besides of course making up tech is possible, but no one has done it in the actual narrative. I prefer to stick to the narrative for actual proof of ideas. I thought you did too. But now I can see you are in the boat of, well it can't be THAT hard why not do it? Anyway if you were to set up mines the best way to do it would be to link them with a mesh that collapses in on itself as soon as some outside force touches it. That way all the mines would come flying in and all hit the ship. Oh man I just thought of some tech that shouldn't be too hard since they made mass effect fields. While we are at it, why don't we go back to Mass Effect 1 and make a weapon where we can disable Saren when we meet him. I mean we know he's going to be on Virmire, why not be prepared for that? Oh right because the tech doesn't exist.

Whether it's mines, mines disguised as probes, mines disguised as hazard becaons, spy satellites designed as hazard beacons, etc. it doesn't really matter if the intent is to blow stuff up or not.  We need data on our enemy now, and not after they've taken human colonies.  A few blown up mines or probes or hazard beacons or whatever is not that high a price, nor is it a jump in technology.

We're not inventing new tech.  It already exists.
http://masseffect.wi..._proximity_mine

Saying that tech "should" be possible is a cop out. It's a cop out that you have called others out for and I sincerely hope you never do again unless you agree that unless it exists in the Universe you can't use it in an actual debate.

It's not a cop out.


We don't know how it can be "tampered" with to cause it to go boom.  All that means is equipping said probes with a different cause for being blown up.

[Sparda Stonerule]

Wait I just noticed something. The Omega 4 Relay doesn't actually link to another Relay (just watched the cutscene again since I didn't remember seeing another Relay). that would mean that the Collectors use FTL to get out of the Galactic Core. So they could appear almost anywhere. Then if they can get out of the Galactic Core without a relay, then they can get into without a Relay since they would know exactly where to jump.



Hell even after the Normandy leaves the base it just Jumps to FTL. So using non existent mines wouldn't work, and even using recon probes wouldn't work if they never use the Relay.

[smudboy]

Throw_this_away wrote...
WOW.  You are dense.  Really. 

TIM wants reper tech.  He is not trying to save human colonies.  He thinks the best way to get reaper tech is a precision strike to disable the base.  He is leading Shep in this direction the entire game.  Shep is trying to save lives.  TIM is trying to learn more about reaper tech. If he will actually use that tech to help or hinder humans... is yet to be revealed.  

This is only a plot hole to you because you have a confirmation bias. 

I'm going to stop arguing with you, and instead argue with Sparda Stonerule.  He is not a blind idiot.  Thanks for trying though.

[smudboy]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

Wait I just noticed something. The Omega 4 Relay doesn't actually link to another Relay (just watched the cutscene again since I didn't remember seeing another Relay). that would mean that the Collectors use FTL to get out of the Galactic Core. So they could appear almost anywhere. Then if they can get out of the Galactic Core without a relay, then they can get into without a Relay since they would know exactly where to jump.

Hell even after the Normandy leaves the base it just Jumps to FTL. So using non existent mines wouldn't work, and even using recon probes wouldn't work if they never use the Relay.

That doesn't make sense though.  I don't think the SR2 jumps OUT of the core, just away from the explosion.

Using FTL would take too much time to wind up in somewhere in the galaxy from the galactic core.

[Sparda Stonerule]

smudboy wrote...

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

Wait I just noticed something. The Omega 4 Relay doesn't actually link to another Relay (just watched the cutscene again since I didn't remember seeing another Relay). that would mean that the Collectors use FTL to get out of the Galactic Core. So they could appear almost anywhere. Then if they can get out of the Galactic Core without a relay, then they can get into without a Relay since they would know exactly where to jump.

Hell even after the Normandy leaves the base it just Jumps to FTL. So using non existent mines wouldn't work, and even using recon probes wouldn't work if they never use the Relay.

That doesn't make sense though.  I don't think the SR2 jumps OUT of the core, just away from the explosion.

Using FTL would take too much time to wind up in somewhere in the galaxy from the galactic core.

Yeah but why would it use FTL to jump to a Relay. You'd be in FTL for all of a fraction of a second. Besides on the Glactic map the core is pretty close to Omega. If you knew where to jump FTL could take you out of there. It might take a little bit. But seriously go watch it again, they don't jump to a Relay. There isn't another Relay there at all. That's... puzzling.

[Throw_this_away]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...


I can't believe you are making me do this. You are making me defend Smud even after I put up a good argument. You just had to put up a really bad reply didn't you? Well then let me "educate" you.

Saying that the Relay is "next" to the station is utterly false. Just because it looks close to these things doesn't mean it is. Why don't you head to the local cluster and observe for yourself how close the planets look. Then do some actual research and see for yourself how "close" they actually are. Oh wait they aren't.

distance is relative to the tech of the time. 

Also Mercs do not ALWAYS contact the collectors. They get in touch when they need something. However even the game says they aren't common and they only show up when your "sacrifice is great enough". This would imply most Mercs wouldn't be willing to pay the cost of needing them. I also highly doubt mercs would commonly run into the type of things that the Collectors would want to pay for. Sure the Collectors pay well, but what they look for is rather rare.

I was never talking about mercs contacting the collectors.  Cerberus has many other enemies.  

*sighs* Pearl Harbor was a gigantic disaster for the Japanese. It drew the Americans into a fight with them. They barely managed to take out any of our ships and they lost all of their air forces there. Why don't you do some reading and get educated on the ramifications of Pearl Harbor.

Pear harbour won WW2 for the allies.  It drew in the US, who to that point didn;t want to help.  But the battle of Pearl Harbour itself was won by the Japanese because the Americans were cought off guard competly, because they were not ready for the attack.  Fish in a barrel.  My point is that preemptive strikes can work. 

We both agree that in the larger picture of WW2, Japan engaging the US in any way was a bad idea. 110% disaster.  It lost the war.  But the tactics of Pear Harbour did not loose the war... the simple act of drawing the US into the war did. 

Remember how well the United States preemptively attacking Iraq went? OH WAIT. We're still in that war even though we were trying to stop a threat before it acted. Oopsie looks like our preemptive strike didn't go so well.

The iraq war was a farce to control a government that was put into power by the US in the 80's to be a lap dog to keep oil prices down when they were sky high.  It was a war for oil.  The televised march of the US forces across Iraq was a joke.  The real war occured in the first night when American special forces took control of most major oil fields in one massive, quick, preemptive strike.  That was a success.  We agree that the rest of the "war" was not.      

Arguments likes yours are the reason Smud gains so much ground. Heck I'm even on your side and I think you are an idiot.

Smud wins by being stubborn, not smart.  He eats this stuff up. 

Modifié par Throw_this_away, 29 juillet 2010 - 03:56 .

[Sparda Stonerule]

Eh I may disagree with Smud. I even think he's stubborn and a hypocrite. However I do not think he's dumb. I just think he's set in his opinion of the game and the narrative and no one will change his mind.



He tends to win arguments because people don't think about things, then they resort to name calling. Smud sticks to well worded arguments that makes people look even more foolish. Does this mean he is right? No, it just means he's better at stating things.



I still disagree with him though.

[Throw_this_away]

smudboy wrote...

Throw_this_away wrote...
WOW.  You are dense.  Really. 

TIM wants reper tech.  He is not trying to save human colonies.  He thinks the best way to get reaper tech is a precision strike to disable the base.  He is leading Shep in this direction the entire game.  Shep is trying to save lives.  TIM is trying to learn more about reaper tech. If he will actually use that tech to help or hinder humans... is yet to be revealed.  

This is only a plot hole to you because you have a confirmation bias. 

I'm going to stop arguing with you, and instead argue with Sparda Stonerule.  He is not a blind idiot.  Thanks for trying though.

Confirmation bias.  Ignore that which does not support your views.  Well played. 

Calling me a blind idiot is a plot hole. 

Modifié par Throw_this_away, 29 juillet 2010 - 03:51 .

[Sparda Stonerule]

Well to be fair he wasn't calling you a blind idiot. He was heavily implying you were. Besides calling his character into question doesn't make a valid argument. As a matter of fact your argument is worse than his simply because you personally insult him several times. Why do that? I know Smud likes the game he just has issues with it.



That being said I'm sure there are better ways to handle the Collectors, but there were better ways to handle Saren too. *shrugs*

[Throw_this_away]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

Eh I may disagree with Smud. I even think he's stubborn and a hypocrite. However I do not think he's dumb. I just think he's set in his opinion of the game and the narrative and no one will change his mind.

He tends to win arguments because people don't think about things, then they resort to name calling. Smud sticks to well worded arguments that makes people look even more foolish. Does this mean he is right? No, it just means he's better at stating things.

I still disagree with him though.

He dishes plenty of trash himself.  That is why I am having fun with him today.  

[smudboy]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

Wait I just noticed something. The Omega 4 Relay doesn't actually link to another Relay (just watched the cutscene again since I didn't remember seeing another Relay). that would mean that the Collectors use FTL to get out of the Galactic Core. So they could appear almost anywhere. Then if they can get out of the Galactic Core without a relay, then they can get into without a Relay since they would know exactly where to jump.

Hell even after the Normandy leaves the base it just Jumps to FTL. So using non existent mines wouldn't work, and even using recon probes wouldn't work if they never use the Relay.

That doesn't make sense though.  I don't think the SR2 jumps OUT of the core, just away from the explosion.

Using FTL would take too much time to wind up in somewhere in the galaxy from the galactic core.

Yeah but why would it use FTL to jump to a Relay. You'd be in FTL for all of a fraction of a second. Besides on the Glactic map the core is pretty close to Omega. If you knew where to jump FTL could take you out of there. It might take a little bit. But seriously go watch it again, they don't jump to a Relay. There isn't another Relay there at all. That's... puzzling.

Considering the speculation on the core in the first place, the lack of time to grant to the "Suicide Mission" for exposition, it's anyone's guess what the safe zone is, how it came about and what's inside it, aside from that black hole.  I do not find it logical, though, that the enemy would be traveling one way with relays, and the other way with FTL.  It doesn't explain their rather quick collection methods.

http://masseffect.wi...wiki/Mass_Relay
Remember there's only primary and secondary relays, and both link to other relays.  Maybe the Omega-4 doesn't?  It's not explained.  Although at that point in the narrative, logic and story cohesion are pretty much gone.