581 réponses à ce sujet

[Throw_this_away]

DarthCaine wrote...

Throw_this_away wrote...

Why the hell is Yoshi helping Mario?  Does Mario really care about the princess?  What was the introduction to Mario's motivation?  What is Bowser's problem?  What does he want with the princess? 

Answers to all of your questions

Good try, but I want 1)evidence and 2) arguments and 3)to be always right.

But we all know Mario is in it for "the cake".  Yoshi is just getting kinky.     

[Sparda Stonerule]

smudboy wrote...

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
Anyway our main argument is that there are no space mines. You are arguing mining it would work. You tell people not to make things up for arguments, yet here you are arguing for something that doesn't exist. that is all.

The argument isn't specifically about using mines.  It's about following a simple lead. Mining is merely a military application of that idea (creating a dangerous blockade.)  I simply like this application because it causes the enemy to change their tactics, as well, as it may potentially damage them.

The use of spy satellites is just as valid, disguised as a hazard beacon, as is sitting there and watching the thing, with the SR2 or some other ship.

And there are several explosive, unmanned type weapons
There are tech mines:
http://masseffect.wi..._proximity_mine
And there are terrestrial mines:
http://masseffect.wi...e_Blasting_Caps
And we have nuclear probes:
http://masseffect.wi...Espionage_Probe
And we have turrets:
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Turret

When I ask people not to make things up, I am referring to their imagination in various ridiculous ways.  Now if you think space mines are ridiculous, or so completely unbelievable, good for you.  Your inability to put idea 1 + idea 2 together is frightening, but I won't argue that.

I can however argue the validity of "thinking up" space mines as more believable than having made up merc groups get pissed off because of an unknown area of space no one cares about is blocking a potential trade with an enigmatic race no one has contacts with, and will start to blow up said mines, or get pissed off at Cerberus.  Even if they do have a legitimate trade aggreement with the Collectors, we now have a second lead: find out what connection these merc groups have with the Collectors.

Regardless of the military application, the point is recon.  Data gathering.  Learning about our enemy.  The main characters know of the connection between the relay and the Collectors.  Yet they're not doing anything about it, despite losing more humans, despite doing stupid/useless actions (collecting soldiers).  Thus, it is a plot hole.

Oh my I wasn't implying that there are not better ways to handle the Collector situation. I do not question that mines can not be made in the universe, I am merely stating that the specific mines you are suggesting don't exist. However I have one thing to say, even if you monitored the Relay the Collectors don't use it very often and that would only tell us when they used it, not where they are heading once they go to FTL. Sure you'd be alerted and that's better than nothing, but you can't cover every colony in Terminus space.

Also your supposition about us not doing anything is kind of a misnomer. We are building a team to eventually combat them in a potentially dangerous zone. Therefore without knowing exactly what is going to happen you would need a diverse group of people with various talents in order to combat them in some unknown scenario. Now we know that TIM is gathering data. We also know he doesn't tell you all of it. So from the narrative itself we find out that he has been personally hunting leads and finding out info while we build a team. So basically TIM handles logistics while we recruit people for when the time comes.

Again I'm not saying this is the absolute best way to combat them but it is far from the worst. Again even if you had drones surveying the relay, the drones wouldn't be able to track the Collector Ship after it goes to FTL. Even if the Normandy was stationed right near the Relay there is no way of knowing they'd use it, and even then the Normandy would need to position itself and fire before their ship jumps to FTL or back through the Relay. Then if the Ship didn't use the Relay after every collection (and it is implied they do not) we'd still not be stopping colonies from being abducted. 

Modifié par Sparda Stonerule, 29 juillet 2010 - 11:43 .

[smudboy]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
Oh my I wasn't implying that there are not better ways to handle the Collector situation. I do not question that mines can not be made in the universe, I am merely stating that the specific mines you are suggesting don't exist. However I have one thing to say, even if you monitored the Relay the Collectors don't use it very often and that would only tell us when they used it, not where they are heading once they go to FTL. Sure you;d be alerted and that's better than nothing, but you can't cover every colony in Terminus space.

I don't see why we couldn't figure out where they're rushing off to if we're spying on them.  Again, they must be using another (omega-4 styled) relay (that links to the omega-4) to get to Terminus space.

1) They Relay into Terminus.  The spy satellite/mine/whatever tells us.
2) They FTL/Relay to somewhere else.  The spy satellite/comm buoy from the Omega-4/other relay tells us
3) We draw a line in our 3D star chart.
4) We head them off at the pass.

Or we just camp the relay and then follow them.

Also your supposition about us not doing anything is kind of a misnomer. We are building a team to eventually combat them in a potentially dangerous zone. Therefore without knowing exactly what is going to happen you would need a diverse group of people with various talents in order to combat them in some unknown scenario. Now we know that TIM is gathering data. We also know he doesn't tell you all of it. So from the narrative itself we find out that he has been personally hunting leads and finding out info while we build a team. So basically TIM handles logistics while we recruit people when the time comes.

All of which is stupid and inefficient if we're not told why we get these people, and all we know of the Collectors is they have a spaceship.

Again I'm not saying this is the absolute best way to combat them but it is far from the worst. Again even if you had drones surveying the relay, the drones wouldn't be able to track the Collector Ship after it goes to FTL. Even if the Normandy was stationed right near the Relay there is no way of knowing they'd use it, and even then the Normandy would need to position itself and fire before their ship jumps to FTL or back through the Relay. Then if the Ship didn't use the Relay after every collection (and it is implied they do not) we'd still not be stopping colonies from being abducted. 

If the Collector ship goes to FTL, that's a straight line.  I'm quite sure computers can plot the flight path of a straight line using basic trig.

[Throw_this_away]

smudboy wrote...

If the Collector ship goes to FTL, that's a straight line.  I'm quite sure computers can plot the flight path of a straight line using basic trig.

Until they stop, change directions, start FTL... repeat... repeat... repeat...

[DarthCaine]

I've been gone for some time now and people are still arguing with smudboy, haven't you learned anything?

Nothing will change his mind, he doesn't want to listen and will keep on nitpicking just to bash ME2. He's just biased and arrogant

Modifié par DarthCaine, 29 juillet 2010 - 11:58 .

[Sparda Stonerule]

Have you ever tried to track a space ship that can go into FTL? There are so many vectors and possible trajectory alterations that it would be almost impossible. Again just because you can see where it jumped at doesn't mean you automatically know the precise vector of the jump. That would require a lot of examination and math. If you take that much time to figure out where they went by the time you arrived everyone would be collected anyway.



Again you are basing an argument over something that no one has ever done in the Universe before. No one has ever traced FTL vectors to follow a ship. You can't just go well they jumped that way, kind of. I'm just going to draw a line on this star chart because space is obviously completely flat.



You also ignored the part of my post where I stated evidence in the narrative suggests they do not even use the Relay very often. Now before you say "Why didn't the Normandy blow up the Collector ship on Horizon". That's because the colonists are still alive and on the ship, and at the time you had no idea they were melting humans. Now before you say "Why didn't the Normandy follow the ship". That's because Shepard was on the ground as the ship was flying away. Again tracking a Vector in space is very very tricky.

[Throw_this_away]

smudboy wrote...
 Again, they must be using another (omega-4 styled) relay (that links to the omega-4) to get to Terminus space.

I think to really talk about this properly, we need to stop assuming and work with the facts we have.  The facts are that we have no evidence of a relay near the collector base.  

[Throw_this_away]

DarthCaine wrote...

I've been gone for some time now and people are still arguing with smudboy, haven't you learned anything?

Nothing will change his mind, he doesn't want to listen and will keep on nitpicking just to bash ME2. He's just biased and arrogant

I guess it all depends on our intent.  I n my mind I won a while back when he refused to acknowledge my posts.  That was my victory.  No I am just seeing what it will take for anther (likley dismissive, arrogant, insulting) reply. 

Modifié par Throw_this_away, 30 juillet 2010 - 12:01 .

[Whatever42]

He's clearly a troll.



Intentional, provocative, incendiary messages. Check.

Passionate debates of inflammatory topics. Check.

Attacks to various members of the community. Check.

Discussions focused on nonsense, in the hope that others will interact. Check.



I've just never seen one so stubborn or prolific on a board. Usually they get bored. So its possible he's just autistic or something.

[smudboy]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

Have you ever tried to track a space ship that can go into FTL? There are so many vectors and possible trajectory alterations that it would be almost impossible. Again just because you can see where it jumped at doesn't mean you automatically know the precise vector of the jump. That would require a lot of examination and math. If you take that much time to figure out where they went by the time you arrived everyone would be collected anyway.

There would be only one vector, with obviously a large magnitude.  Changing ones vector would be devastating in FTL.

The assumption is they're going to a region of space where a human colony is.  You don't need pinpoint accuracy (although I don't see how that's not possible).  You just go to cloeset one in the direction where they were headed.

You also ignored the part of my post where I stated evidence in the narrative suggests they do not even use the Relay very often. Now before you say "Why didn't the Normandy blow up the Collector ship on Horizon". That's because the colonists are still alive and on the ship, and at the time you had no idea they were melting humans. Now before you say "Why didn't the Normandy follow the ship". That's because Shepard was on the ground as the ship was flying away. Again tracking a Vector in space is very very tricky.

They could've attacked it, took out it's engines, etc.  The SR2 was in orbit and doesn't need Shepard to do so.

[Throw_this_away]

smudboy wrote...
Changing ones vector would be devastating in FTL.

Engage FTL.  Disengage FTL.  Turn.  Re-engage FTL... repeat...

confirmation bias much?

[wulf3n]

Throw_this_away wrote...

TIM wants reper tech. 

TIM already has reaper tech, why would he want collector tech?

Throw_this_away wrote...
He thinks the best way to get reaper tech is a precision strike to disable the base. 

You mean the base he knew nothing about until the last 10 minutes of the game?

Throw_this_away wrote...
 He is leading Shep in this direction the entire game.

But how did he know about this base  oh thats right he must have read the script.

[Sparda Stonerule]

True, but ships do tend to move kind of fast. I don't know if it would be possible to fire a pin point volley to take out their engines before they moved out of range, but they probably should have tried.

[Throw_this_away]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

He's clearly a troll.

Intentional, provocative, incendiary messages. Check.
Passionate debates of inflammatory topics. Check.
Attacks to various members of the community. Check.
Discussions focused on nonsense, in the hope that others will interact. Check.

I've just never seen one so stubborn or prolific on a board. Usually they get bored. So its possible he's just autistic or something.

The autistic comment is interesting.  I am sure he is a blast at parties.  "Why did you take that chip with salsa and not dip?  Dip is better and was closer to the chips so it made more sense because the option is there and it is better.  No show me your 1) evidence and 2) argument(s) again. 

[Sparda Stonerule]

Throw_This_Away I would love to be on your side but you hate Tali, even though I quite like her character. We just can't see eye to eye. I'm going to need to see your evidence and arguments against Tali again so I can shoot you down through subjective arguments.

[smudboy]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

True, but ships do tend to move kind of fast. I don't know if it would be possible to fire a pin point volley to take out their engines before they moved out of range, but they probably should have tried.

The Collectors were in a stationary position on a planet.  Turning on their booster rockets to escape the atmosphere.  Plenty of time to start bombing them accurately when the SR2 is in orbit.

But yeah, that's something else.  We could argue EDI was busy doing...calibrations...but that's not excuse for Joker.

[Throw_this_away]

wulf3n wrote...

Throw_this_away wrote...

TIM wants reper tech. 

TIM already has reaper tech, why would he want collector tech?

Throw_this_away wrote...
He thinks the best way to get reaper tech is a precision strike to disable the base. 

You mean the base he knew nothing about until the last 10 minutes of the game?

Throw_this_away wrote...
 He is leading Shep in this direction the entire game.

But how did he know about this base  oh thats right he must have read the script.

He wants collector tech because the reapers made the collectors from the protheans.  That suggests reaper tech that may be useful.   And there was a big reaper fetus on the ship. 

We don't know how much TIM really knows.  But we know he deals in knowledge.  We do know is that he holds his cards close, and is more than comfortable to keep critical info from Shep in an attempt to use him to do his bidding. 

As far as stories go... what would be the fun of it if we as gamers knew everything TIM did, and why he does as he does?  

[Sparda Stonerule]

Wait whoa, was that a sense of humor. DID I SEE YOU MAKING A JOKE? Well consider me completely surprised. But yes the ship was stationary, however it's possible the ship couldn't move while EDI was doing the computer work with the guns. Who knows either way? If the ship could move Joker should have started bombing the ship while screaming "Take that you sonsa ****es".

[Sparda Stonerule]

Throw_this_away wrote...

He wants collector tech because the reapers made the collectors from the protheans.  That suggests reaper tech that may be useful.   And there was a big reaper fetus on the ship. 

We don't know how much TIM really knows.  But we know he deals in knowledge.  We do know is that he holds his cards close, and is more than comfortable to keep critical info from Shep in an attempt to use him to do his bidding. 

As far as stories go... what would be the fun of it if we as gamers knew everything TIM did, and why he does as he does?  

Dude I love the part of Doctor Who when the Doctor turns to the camera before he does something and tells me exactly what he is going to do. Because he does that all the time and makes the adventure even more interesting. Hey wait a second...

[wulf3n]

Throw_this_away wrote...
He wants collector tech because the reapers made the collectors from the protheans.  That suggests reaper tech that may be useful.   And there was a big reaper fetus on the ship.

Wait!...how did he know there was a Reaper fetus on the base? Oh that's right he read the script.

Throw_this_away wrote...
We don't know how much TIM really knows.  But we know he deals in knowledge.

 

And the only people that could have told him about the base is the Collectors, and something tells me there not too chatty with TIM.

Throw_this_away wrote...
As far as stories go... what would be the fun of it if we as gamers knew everything TIM did, and why he does as he does?  

There's a difference between not knowing anything, and our actions suggesting we know stuff, that we're never told.

Modifié par wulf3n, 30 juillet 2010 - 12:20 .

[Sparda Stonerule]

Excuse me wulf3n I think you are forgetting that from the beginning of the game TIM suspected Reapers were involved with the Collectors. Then part way through the game that this is true. Later we find out the Collectors are Protheans and that the Reapers made them that way. So the Collectors and their ship are Reaper tech. No need to read the script, even though I do suspect he would cheat like that if he could.



Stop trying to be as awesome as Smud. Your arguments aren't nearly as good as his.

[smudboy]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

Wait whoa, was that a sense of humor. DID I SEE YOU MAKING A JOKE? Well consider me completely surprised. But yes the ship was stationary, however it's possible the ship couldn't move while EDI was doing the computer work with the guns. Who knows either way? If the ship could move Joker should have started bombing the ship while screaming "Take that you sonsa ****es".

One of many plot holes.

Well we seem to be off topic.  And since you believe simple trig is beyond the capacity of computers, I won't bother arguing.  But not doing any recon on the relay is a clear plot hole.

[wulf3n]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

Excuse me wulf3n I think you are forgetting that from the beginning of the game TIM suspected Reapers were involved with the Collectors. Then part way through the game that this is true. Later we find out the Collectors are Protheans and that the Reapers made them that way. So the Collectors and their ship are Reaper tech. No need to read the script, even though I do suspect he would cheat like that if he could.

So why does he get you to build up a squad form the very beginning? Why does he want you to go through the Omega 4 relay from the very beginning?

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
Stop trying to be as awesome as Smud. Your arguments aren't nearly as good as his.

True, and i would concede that point...if i needed to be as good as smud to argue with you.

[Sparda Stonerule]

Yeah well plenty of stories have plot holes. I'm not saying it's ok it's just kind of unavoidable since most stories want to add tension. Tension is the breeding ground of plot holes. If you don't believe me go analyze any story when situations get tense and tell me there isn't a plot hole. Then go examine real world history, tell me any tense situation didn't have a better outcome, or at very least a subjectively better one.



I'm not even saying that there aren't plot holes, just that in some situations you are suggesting things should be happening based off of tech that doesn't exist at the time. I'm honestly not saying the plot is bulletproof. No plot is.

[Throw_this_away]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

Throw_This_Away I would love to be on your side but you hate Tali, even though I quite like her character. We just can't see eye to eye. I'm going to need to see your evidence and arguments against Tali again so I can shoot you down through subjective arguments.

Evidence/arguments:
1) She is popular.  I hate popular characters because I see myself as clever and uber hip an original so I can;t like anything if other people like it.  
2) She has no face.  So I can;t relate to her as much as other characters.  It is my human nature.  At least legion has the flaps.  
3) she looks odd.  Her legs make her look like she has rickets.  She is not even attractive.  She looks like Golumn for all I know.  
4) She is easy.  She throws herself at sheploo.  I like to pick my girls and go after them.  The fun is in the chase.  
5) she seems very young.  Her background and maturity suggest this.  Her romance it too virginal... and it feels creepy to me.   
6) she is too nice.  I don't trust nice people.  I want some flaws... because damnit we all have them.  THe ones that don;t are just doing a better job at hiding it.  
7)  She is too self concious.  I find confidence sexy.  She lacks it romantically. 
8) she is popular. More bang for the buck when you are trying to get a rise. 
9) suicide mission.  I struggled on my first vanguard playthrough.  The kept crying for me to hurry up because it was so hot.  I was taking a long time to advance... and her voice just got more annoying.  "It may be hot in the pipes but I have collectors trying to assume control of my ass so go shove it!!!"  I cheered when she got the head shot.  It is now my ritual for nostalgia reasons.