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One plot hole to rule them all


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#401
wulf3n

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Throw_this_away wrote...

wulf3n wrote...

Throw_this_away wrote...
My problem is that I am so smart and correct that if I were to truly try and counter your agrument... it would melt your face and you would see god.  The god you would see would be me.  

I have too many followers as it is.  It is hard work leading a group of religous fanatics.  They always demand that I fix their problems.  I really can;t.  That is the problem.  I can make them think that it is all part of a bigger plan, or that some other evil force is to blame... but inreality I jus melted their faces with my arguments.  Nothing more.  


Can i call you John?


I prefer daddy.  


You sound like a john to me

#402
Sparda Stonerule

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wulf3n wrote...

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

TIM got his info from an elaborate information network. He probably has agents in the Alliance and possibly agents within the Shadow Brokers information network. So in reality it could have come from almost anywhere. Besides he never clues you in on where he gets info because he keeps secrets from everyone. Just because you don't agree with a game characters methods doesn't make them wrong. Hence that whole point is subjective.


Exactly, but the only people that know about the collector base, are the collectors! Do you think TIM, took them to a bar, got them drunk, and let them spill their guts, about their upcoming plan? 

None of this would be a problem if later on in the game, they gave you a simple explanation as to how TIM got the information.


Oh good lord I never said TIM knew about the base. Someone else did. TIM is rather specific "I have no idea what you'll find on the other side". He may have had speculation but that's relatively unimportant. Also I would like to add I hate games that think I need exposition to clearly outline why everything is how it is. It feels out of place and alien because no one on Earth ever fully explains their own motives. In fact most of the time people don't know their own bloody motivations.

#403
smudboy

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Sparda Stonerule wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

smudboy wrote...

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...
Evidence of what? There are no space mines.

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/X57:_Avoid_the_Blasting_Caps

You're just regurgitating what someone else already argued, and we're already dealt with the mines issue anyway.  Go back a page or two.


I would like to point out that those are land mines. If you put blasting caps in space they would drift as things tend to do in space. Besides I seriously doubt those blasting caps would harm a ship when Guardian Lasers did no significant damage. 

Yes, but they're on a massive asteroid with no atmosphere.  Whether it's attached to an asteroid or in space, it's still a mine in space, and it will go boom when things get near it.


Actually no, it's still connected to the ground which is a lot different than drifting in space. In reality something floating in space would need a correctional propulsion system to prevent drift. Those blast caps do not have that.


It doesn't matter: they exist, as does other technology to fascilitate other kinds of mines, or whatever contrived behavior your "space mine" should have.

#404
MTN Dew Fanatic

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smudboy wrote...

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

smudboy wrote...

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

smudboy wrote...

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...
Evidence of what? There are no space mines.

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/X57:_Avoid_the_Blasting_Caps

You're just regurgitating what someone else already argued, and we're already dealt with the mines issue anyway.  Go back a page or two.



Except those aren't mines, nowhere does it state that those are mines.


Did you play that part of the game?  Try moving close to those "not-mines" and see what happens.




Because they work on the asteroid must mean they'll work in space spread across kilometres?


I'm not saying go rush out and contact the manufacturer of said mines and ask for said mines.  I'm saying mines exist.  Ergo, other mines can exist, as can their payload, detonations radius, and the sort.  If we have a ship that can upgrade things, and we can buy upgrades to things from multiple vendors, this is not a stretch.  Hell we have probes that can instantly collect minerals into our cargo holds after hitting a planet, or something.  Modifying a proximity bomb is hardly that big a deal.



And the "mines" are just supposed to stay in the same positions with magic?

#405
Throw_this_away

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wulf3n wrote...

Throw_this_away wrote...

wulf3n wrote...

Throw_this_away wrote...
My problem is that I am so smart and correct that if I were to truly try and counter your agrument... it would melt your face and you would see god.  The god you would see would be me.  

I have too many followers as it is.  It is hard work leading a group of religous fanatics.  They always demand that I fix their problems.  I really can;t.  That is the problem.  I can make them think that it is all part of a bigger plan, or that some other evil force is to blame... but inreality I jus melted their faces with my arguments.  Nothing more.  


Can i call you John?


I prefer daddy.  


You sound like a john to me


what does *this* sound like?

#406
wulf3n

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Sparda Stonerule wrote...
Oh good lord I never said TIM knew about the base. Someone else did. TIM is rather specific "I have no idea what you'll find on the other side". He may have had speculation but that's relatively unimportant.


Then why plan to go through the Omega 4 relay? Why build up forces for a ground assault when you are just as likely to find ship to ship combat?

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
Also I would like to add I hate games that think I need exposition to clearly outline why everything is how it is. It feels out of place and alien because no one on Earth ever fully explains their own motives. In fact most of the time people don't know their own bloody motivations.


I agree, i don't want TIM to tell me all his plans, but if they're crucial to the story, you know, like why we're going through this relay when we obviously don't have to, i would like to be able to find out why im doing these things. Otherwise it feels like I'm PUSHING the story along, not that the story is unfurling.

#407
smudboy

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MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

And the "mines" are just supposed to stay in the same positions with magic?


The same way probes, comm buoys, hazard beacons, satellites and other such objects can move in space.

#408
wulf3n

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Throw_this_away wrote...
what does *this* sound like?


John?

#409
Sparda Stonerule

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I think calling my contrived properties is pretty arrogant since you are saying contrived things like "Something like it exists so it could exist". Everyone knows that in order to control yourself in space you need a corrective propulsion system. Without it you would drift any which way forever and never be able to stay put. I didn't make that up. You made up that "since something with the word "mine" in it exists something that has a different properties but still has "mine" in the name should exist."

#410
Throw_this_away

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wulf3n wrote...

Throw_this_away wrote...
what does *this* sound like?


John?


Ha!  No... it was a trick.  Typed words have no sound.  :wizard:

#411
MTN Dew Fanatic

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smudboy wrote...

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

And the "mines" are just supposed to stay in the same positions with magic?


The same way probes, comm buoys, hazard beacons, satellites and other such objects can move in space.


Eventually they'll bump into eachother and it will cause various problems.

#412
Sparda Stonerule

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wulf3n wrote...

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
Oh good lord I never said TIM knew about the base. Someone else did. TIM is rather specific "I have no idea what you'll find on the other side". He may have had speculation but that's relatively unimportant.


Then why plan to go through the Omega 4 relay? Why build up forces for a ground assault when you are just as likely to find ship to ship combat?

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
Also I would like to add I hate games that think I need exposition to clearly outline why everything is how it is. It feels out of place and alien because no one on Earth ever fully explains their own motives. In fact most of the time people don't know their own bloody motivations.


I agree, i don't want TIM to tell me all his plans, but if they're crucial to the story, you know, like why we're going through this relay when we obviously don't have to, i would like to be able to find out why im doing these things. Otherwise it feels like I'm PUSHING the story along, not that the story is unfurling.

Because they believe the Collector "home world" is in the Galactic core. It is stated in the game itself that they believe the Collector home world is beyond the Relay since apparently only the Collectors can use it safely. So of course you'd plan for a space battle and an on land battle if you think you are hitting the Home world.

Modifié par Sparda Stonerule, 30 juillet 2010 - 01:21 .


#413
Throw_this_away

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MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

smudboy wrote...

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

And the "mines" are just supposed to stay in the same positions with magic?


The same way probes, comm buoys, hazard beacons, satellites and other such objects can move in space.


Eventually they'll bump into eachother and it will cause various problems.


Yes! Never forget the speech about physics in space before you enter the citadel! 

#414
smudboy

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Sparda Stonerule wrote...

I think calling my contrived properties is pretty arrogant since you are saying contrived things like "Something like it exists so it could exist". Everyone knows that in order to control yourself in space you need a corrective propulsion system. Without it you would drift any which way forever and never be able to stay put. I didn't make that up. You made up that "since something with the word "mine" in it exists something that has a different properties but still has "mine" in the name should exist."


Then comm buoys have a corrective propulsion system.  As do probes.  And hazard beacons.  And other said small remote devices.

We're talking technicalities on a thing that already exists, or things that have properties that do the same operation have the functionality, which is no large stretch in technology.  Nor is it a large step in the game play of a ship that can upgrade itself and various other devices (let alone perform medical procedures at the click of a button.)  Even if there were space mines with proper propulsion or whatever technical detail you're aruging, you'd then be arguing "but there are no nuclear mines" or mines that have a proper detonation radius, and a bunch of small technicalities which are not beyond the scope of the technology.

#415
santaclausemoreau

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would it be possible to orbit a relay? doesn't the whole "mass effect" get rid of gravitational pull?

#416
Sparda Stonerule

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smudboy wrote...

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

I think calling my contrived properties is pretty arrogant since you are saying contrived things like "Something like it exists so it could exist". Everyone knows that in order to control yourself in space you need a corrective propulsion system. Without it you would drift any which way forever and never be able to stay put. I didn't make that up. You made up that "since something with the word "mine" in it exists something that has a different properties but still has "mine" in the name should exist."


Then comm buoys have a corrective propulsion system.  As do probes.  And hazard beacons.  And other said small remote devices.

We're talking technicalities on a thing that already exists, or things that have properties that do the same operation have the functionality, which is no large stretch in technology.  Nor is it a large step in the game play of a ship that can upgrade itself and various other devices (let alone perform medical procedures at the click of a button.)  Even if there were space mines with proper propulsion or whatever technical detail you're aruging, you'd then be arguing "but there are no nuclear mines" or mines that have a proper detonation radius, and a bunch of small technicalities which are not beyond the scope of the technology.


You are right. Because the kind of thing you are arguing doesn't exist in the game. If it did you would have a completely valid argument. Just because it can exist doesn't mean it does.

#417
smudboy

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Sparda Stonerule wrote...

You are right. Because the kind of thing you are arguing doesn't exist in the game. If it did you would have a completely valid argument. Just because it can exist doesn't mean it does.


Comm buoys exist.  Put a proximity bomb in it.
Probes exist.  Put a proximity bomb in it.
Hazard beacons exist.  Put a proximity bomb in it.

Voila.  No invention of technology.  Just putting a proximity bomb in existing tech.  We have mines.  We have a mine field.

Modifié par smudboy, 30 juillet 2010 - 01:33 .


#418
MTN Dew Fanatic

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smudboy wrote...

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

I think calling my contrived properties is pretty arrogant since you are saying contrived things like "Something like it exists so it could exist". Everyone knows that in order to control yourself in space you need a corrective propulsion system. Without it you would drift any which way forever and never be able to stay put. I didn't make that up. You made up that "since something with the word "mine" in it exists something that has a different properties but still has "mine" in the name should exist."


Then comm buoys have a corrective propulsion system.  As do probes.  And hazard beacons.  And other said small remote devices.

We're talking technicalities on a thing that already exists, or things that have properties that do the same operation have the functionality, which is no large stretch in technology.  Nor is it a large step in the game play of a ship that can upgrade itself and various other devices (let alone perform medical procedures at the click of a button.)  Even if there were space mines with proper propulsion or whatever technical detail you're aruging, you'd then be arguing "but there are no nuclear mines" or mines that have a proper detonation radius, and a bunch of small technicalities which are not beyond the scope of the technology.


First you propose using improvised mines, now you're saying that there can be mines of sufficient blast radius, proper propulsion, and can be spread across kilometres. All the while being much easier than the plan with Shepard and his team.

#419
Sparda Stonerule

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Are you really saying that combining tech is not inventing tech? Smud really. Your arguments are usually pretty good. But the point is that there are no mines in the game designed for use in a zero g environment. Just because you could jerry rig tech to other tech doesn't mean that it happened. I'm going purely by what exists and what doesn't. Not how they could theoretically be used together.

#420
wulf3n

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Throw_this_away wrote...

wulf3n wrote...

Throw_this_away wrote...
what does *this* sound like?


John?


How can you be sure? maybe you just can't hear them.

Ha!  No... it was a trick.  Typed words have no sound.  :wizard:



#421
Throw_this_away

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wulf3n wrote...

How can you be sure? maybe you just can't hear them.


:blink:

Do you see dead people?

#422
smudboy

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MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

I think calling my contrived properties is pretty arrogant since you are saying contrived things like "Something like it exists so it could exist". Everyone knows that in order to control yourself in space you need a corrective propulsion system. Without it you would drift any which way forever and never be able to stay put. I didn't make that up. You made up that "since something with the word "mine" in it exists something that has a different properties but still has "mine" in the name should exist."


Then comm buoys have a corrective propulsion system.  As do probes.  And hazard beacons.  And other said small remote devices.

We're talking technicalities on a thing that already exists, or things that have properties that do the same operation have the functionality, which is no large stretch in technology.  Nor is it a large step in the game play of a ship that can upgrade itself and various other devices (let alone perform medical procedures at the click of a button.)  Even if there were space mines with proper propulsion or whatever technical detail you're aruging, you'd then be arguing "but there are no nuclear mines" or mines that have a proper detonation radius, and a bunch of small technicalities which are not beyond the scope of the technology.

First you propose using improvised mines, now you're saying that there can be mines of sufficient blast radius, proper propulsion, and can be spread across kilometres. All the while being much easier than the plan with Shepard and his team.

I don't really care about the technicalities or details of mines.  You guys seem to.  It seems to be this massive argument on your side simply because you can't fathom the existence of a minefield, or the logistics of building mines, or that mines wouldn't exist, or how many there should be, or how to retrofit a probe, etc.  Or even the possibility of constructing mines.  This is not my problem.  This is the equivalent of whether or not peanut butter and jelly sandwiches exist in the ME universe.

The technology exists in various forms that would do exactly what the operation of a mine would do.  In fact, mines already do exist, just not at the scale you think would be sufficient for them to exist, as well as with proper details.

The argument I'm making isn't for mines per se; that's just my interpetation of the course of action for staking out the omega-4 relay.

Staking out the relay is simpler than the nonsensical plan TIM has Shepard do (getting people.)  Whether you're building mines, comm buoys, spy satellites, camping the relay, etc., that doesn't really matter.  It's actually taking that choice that matters, that the narrative doesn't do, which makes it a plot hole.

#423
smudboy

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Sparda Stonerule wrote...

Are you really saying that combining tech is not inventing tech? Smud really. Your arguments are usually pretty good. But the point is that there are no mines in the game designed for use in a zero g environment. Just because you could jerry rig tech to other tech doesn't mean that it happened. I'm going purely by what exists and what doesn't. Not how they could theoretically be used together.


The technicalities of how a mine is made, construted, upgraded, or built are irrelevant.  They exist, the technology exists for it to be made, and can be built for the purpose of detecting/damaging/destroying the Collectors at the Omega-4 relay.

#424
wulf3n

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Sparda Stonerule wrote...
Because they believe the Collector "home world" is in the Galactic core.


They only find out about the galactic core in the middle of the game. But i'll go along with this. Ok they believe there is a Collector Home World. But what's there? is it defended? No you could argue that, if they want to REALLY stop the collectors they'll have to go there in the end, i agree. But why not do some recon first, you know by stopping the ship that is attacking all your colonies first! then go through the relay! but that's not the plan, the plan from the get go, build up an elite team of soldiers, to go through the relay!

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
 It is stated in the game itself that they believe the Collector home world is beyond the Relay since apparently only the Collectors can use it safely. So of course you'd plan for a space battle and an on land battle if you think you are hitting the Home world.

True, but they didn't plan for a space battle! the only plan was get a bunch of soldiers together, so you can go through a relay that, the only reason you know nothing about, is because your avoiding the problem that's right in your face.

#425
wulf3n

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Throw_this_away wrote...

wulf3n wrote...

How can you be sure? maybe you just can't hear them.


:blink:

Do you see dead people?


I've seen dead people? i can't see them right now. Did you want them to get you something from the shops?