581 réponses à ce sujet

[Throw_this_away]

If we said there were plot holes in ME2 would this end?

No? I didn't think so.

But there are plot holes. Lots of them. We will see how many are intentional in ME3

p.s. ME2 is my fav game of all time. 

Modifié par Throw_this_away, 30 juillet 2010 - 01:51 .

[Sparda Stonerule]

But Smud, your own arguments say that kind of thinking is a no no. You said people can't think up merc bands who may get annoyed about a mine field being placed. However there are 3 of those that may get upset by a mine field. The Blue Suns, Eclipse, and Blood Pack. Now you are saying that since they don't get mad they won't. Now you are telling me that because mines could exist, they should, so I'm wrong. This is exactly why I called you a hypocrite earlier.



It's fine if you want to stick with what actually exists, but only if you stick to that rule yourself. Besides Peanut Butter Jelly sandwiches do not exist because they were never referenced, however Ramen certainly does.

[Throw_this_away]

wulf3n wrote...

Throw_this_away wrote...

wulf3n wrote...

How can you be sure? maybe you just can't hear them.

Do you see dead people?

I've seen dead people? i can't see them right now. Did you want them to get you something from the shops?

earlier in the thread I asked for a popsicle.  Could the dead people get me one?

[Sparda Stonerule]

wulf3n wrote...

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
Because they believe the Collector "home world" is in the Galactic core.

They only find out about the galactic core in the middle of the game. But i'll go along with this. Ok they believe there is a Collector Home World. But what's there? is it defended? No you could argue that, if they want to REALLY stop the collectors they'll have to go there in the end, i agree. But why not do some recon first, you know by stopping the ship that is attacking all your colonies first! then go through the relay! but that's not the plan, the plan from the get go, build up an elite team of soldiers, to go through the relay!

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
 It is stated in the game itself that they believe the Collector home world is beyond the Relay since apparently only the Collectors can use it safely. So of course you'd plan for a space battle and an on land battle if you think you are hitting the Home world.

True, but they didn't plan for a space battle! the only plan was get a bunch of soldiers together, so you can go through a relay that, the only reason you know nothing about, is because your avoiding the problem that's right in your face.

If that was really true why on Earth would they need the Normandy with it's weapons armor and shields? They planned for a land and space battle which is why they have an armed space ship and a capable land team.

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

smudboy wrote...

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

I think calling my contrived properties is pretty arrogant since you are saying contrived things like "Something like it exists so it could exist". Everyone knows that in order to control yourself in space you need a corrective propulsion system. Without it you would drift any which way forever and never be able to stay put. I didn't make that up. You made up that "since something with the word "mine" in it exists something that has a different properties but still has "mine" in the name should exist."

Then comm buoys have a corrective propulsion system.  As do probes.  And hazard beacons.  And other said small remote devices.

We're talking technicalities on a thing that already exists, or things that have properties that do the same operation have the functionality, which is no large stretch in technology.  Nor is it a large step in the game play of a ship that can upgrade itself and various other devices (let alone perform medical procedures at the click of a button.)  Even if there were space mines with proper propulsion or whatever technical detail you're aruging, you'd then be arguing "but there are no nuclear mines" or mines that have a proper detonation radius, and a bunch of small technicalities which are not beyond the scope of the technology.

First you propose using improvised mines, now you're saying that there can be mines of sufficient blast radius, proper propulsion, and can be spread across kilometres. All the while being much easier than the plan with Shepard and his team.

I don't really care about the technicalities or details of mines.  You guys seem to.  It seems to be this massive argument on your side simply because you can't fathom the existence of a minefield, or the logistics of building mines, or that mines wouldn't exist, or how many there should be, or how to retrofit a probe, etc.  Or even the possibility of constructing mines.  This is not my problem.  This is the equivalent of whether or not peanut butter and jelly sandwiches exist in the ME universe.

The technology exists in various forms that would do exactly what the operation of a mine would do.  In fact, mines already do exist, just not at the scale you think would be sufficient for them to exist, as well as with proper details.

The argument I'm making isn't for mines per se; that's just my interpetation of the course of action for staking out the omega-4 relay.

Staking out the relay is simpler than the nonsensical plan TIM has Shepard do (getting people.)  Whether you're building mines, comm buoys, spy satellites, camping the relay, etc., that doesn't really matter.  It's actually taking that choice that matters, that the narrative doesn't do, which makes it a plot hole.

You don't care about the technicalities/details of the mines, but you seem to care about the technicalities'details of everything else involving you "plan"?


If the plan to camp the relay had been taken then there wouldn't be the plot with Shepard and the team, thus it wouldn't be a plot hole ,because it wouldn't be apart of this plot. It would become something separate.

[smudboy]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

But Smud, your own arguments say that kind of thinking is a no no. You said people can't think up merc bands who may get annoyed about a mine field being placed. However there are 3 of those that may get upset by a mine field. The Blue Suns, Eclipse, and Blood Pack. Now you are saying that since they don't get mad they won't. Now you are telling me that because mines could exist, they should, so I'm wrong. This is exactly why I called you a hypocrite earlier.

It's fine if you want to stick with what actually exists, but only if you stick to that rule yourself. Besides Peanut Butter Jelly sandwiches do not exist because they were never referenced, however Ramen certainly does.

What I'm doing is combining two ideas.  These two ideas, or two pieces of technology, are actual physical things.  For your food analogy, it would be like combining Ramen and Nutrient Paste.  Obviously much more technical, and you guys can argue the technology all you want: I just don't see the point.

When people have combined their ideas to argue me, for that example, they literally invent merc bands out of their imagination.  They can't point to them and say "this one".  They then invent some kind of business relationship they'd supposedly have with the Collectors, as if they have some kind of open channel to them to take requests.  They'd then have to argue that this merc band would have to have knowledge of the Omega-4 relay and Cerberus laying a mine field, or putting up spy satellites/comm buoys/etc. there.  They would then argue that this imaginary merc band after all this would try to do something about said mind field, because it might interfere with their trade agreement.  (I've argued if that's the case, perfect: we've achieved out goal.  We've gotten a new lead on the Collectors or their business partner, but that's besides the point.)

Mines exist.  Bombs exist.  Explosives exist.  Comm buoys exist.  Hazard beacons exist.  Engine drive cores exist.  Nuclear bombs exist.  Proximity censors exist.  Probes exist.  Upgrading technology at the click of a button exists.  Buying design specs on new technology from vendors exist.  Launching probes and instantly receiving 4 types of minerals exist.

Imaginary merc groups do not exist.  Trade agreements with the Collectors do not exist. etc.

[wulf3n]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
If that was really true why on Earth would they need the Normandy with it's weapons armor and shields? They planned for a land and space battle which is why they have an armed space ship and a capable land team.

The Normandy is needed to collect and transport the army.
The weapons and armor are a Shepard initiative, not really a part of the plan.

My point was though, why when is TIM planning to go through the relay from the get go? He should be trying to stop the Collector Ship that's Roaming the Terminus Systems.

You could argue he doesn't care about the Colonies all he wants to do is get his hands on new technology which is fine, but we're never told this.

All we know is TIM ignores the logical option, being the collector ship, for an overly risky plan to go through the relay, which only by dumb luck does it pay off.

To Throw_this_Away: I'll ask them, but they don't taste very good. very ectoplasmic.

[smudboy]

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...
You don't care about the technicalities/details of the mines, but you seem to care about the technicalities'details of everything else involving you "plan"?

There's really not that much detail to the plan.  Stake out the relay.  Lots of methods.  Hence, plot hole.

I like the mine idea cause I just like it.

If the plan to camp the relay had been taken then there wouldn't be the plot with Shepard and the team, thus it wouldn't be a plot hole ,because it wouldn't be apart of this plot. It would become something separate.

If they actually scoped out the Omega-4 relay, then of course it wouldn't be a plot hole.  That's what I'm arguing.

What would become something separate?

[Whatever42]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

But Smud, your own arguments say that kind of thinking is a no no. You said people can't think up merc bands who may get annoyed about a mine field being placed. However there are 3 of those that may get upset by a mine field. The Blue Suns, Eclipse, and Blood Pack. Now you are saying that since they don't get mad they won't. Now you are telling me that because mines could exist, they should, so I'm wrong. This is exactly why I called you a hypocrite earlier.

It's fine if you want to stick with what actually exists, but only if you stick to that rule yourself. Besides Peanut Butter Jelly sandwiches do not exist because they were never referenced, however Ramen certainly does.

Checkmate. Anyone who didn't see that 6 moves back wasn't paying attention. But Smud will keep moving his pawns back and forth pretending that he's still in the game.

[Sparda Stonerule]

Well trade does exist with the collectors. They traded with Okeer did they not? He even states they are "very available if your sacrifice is great enough". While I am not arguing that merc bands may be upset (because I am not) I am stating that these mines you are talking about don't actually exist. Sure they could but unless they do exist they can't be used. They can only be theoretically used. Which is what you are doing, you are inventing a scenario in which you combine several pieces of tech to use in a hypothetical situation.



You tell people not to use hypothetical situations, yet you use hypothetical situations to try and prove points.

[Sparda Stonerule]

wulf3n wrote...

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
If that was really true why on Earth would they need the Normandy with it's weapons armor and shields? They planned for a land and space battle which is why they have an armed space ship and a capable land team.

The Normandy is needed to collect and transport the army.
The weapons and armor are a Shepard initiative, not really a part of the plan.

My point was though, why when is TIM planning to go through the relay from the get go? He should be trying to stop the Collector Ship that's Roaming the Terminus Systems.

You could argue he doesn't care about the Colonies all he wants to do is get his hands on new technology which is fine, but we're never told this.

All we know is TIM ignores the logical option, being the collector ship, for an overly risky plan to go through the relay, which only by dumb luck does it pay off.

To Throw_this_Away: I'll ask them, but they don't taste very good. very ectoplasmic.

Actually the Normandy SR-2 had armor shields and tech to begin with. Shepard just asks if anyone has any ideas for upgrades. So Shepard's initiative was to have the Ship and Crew be better equipped. Why not cover all your battle needs by collecting an army and upgrading your ship.

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

smudboy wrote...

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

But Smud, your own arguments say that kind of thinking is a no no. You said people can't think up merc bands who may get annoyed about a mine field being placed. However there are 3 of those that may get upset by a mine field. The Blue Suns, Eclipse, and Blood Pack. Now you are saying that since they don't get mad they won't. Now you are telling me that because mines could exist, they should, so I'm wrong. This is exactly why I called you a hypocrite earlier.

It's fine if you want to stick with what actually exists, but only if you stick to that rule yourself. Besides Peanut Butter Jelly sandwiches do not exist because they were never referenced, however Ramen certainly does.

What I'm doing is combining two ideas.  These two ideas, or two pieces of technology, are actual physical things.  For your food analogy, it would be like combining Ramen and Nutrient Paste.  Obviously much more technical, and you guys can argue the technology all you want: I just don't see the point.

When people have combined their ideas to argue me, for that example, they literally invent merc bands out of their imagination.  They can't point to them and say "this one".  They then invent some kind of business relationship they'd supposedly have with the Collectors, as if they have some kind of open channel to them to take requests.  They'd then have to argue that this merc band would have to have knowledge of the Omega-4 relay and Cerberus laying a mine field, or putting up spy satellites/comm buoys/etc. there.  They would then argue that this imaginary merc band after all this would try to do something about said mind field, because it might interfere with their trade agreement.  (I've argued if that's the case, perfect: we've achieved out goal.  We've gotten a new lead on the Collectors or their business partner, but that's besides the point.)

Mines exist.  Bombs exist.  Explosives exist.  Comm buoys exist.  Hazard beacons exist.  Engine drive cores exist.  Nuclear bombs exist.  Proximity censors exist.  Probes exist.  Upgrading technology at the click of a button exists.  Buying design specs on new technology from vendors exist.  Launching probes and instantly receiving 4 types of minerals exist.

Imaginary merc groups do not exist.  Trade agreements with the Collectors do not exist. etc.

The Collectors have made trade agreements with various groups; people for technology.


Your whole idea of combining all of these items to make an unknown amount of mines seems like a really long drawn out process. Then, you might say, " You upgrade at the click of a button!". We don't know how long it takes to make the upgrades, it could be done while en route somewhere or while at Omega/Citadel/Illium et cetera, et cetera. Shepard also never seems to sleep.

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

smudboy wrote...

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...
You don't care about the technicalities/details of the mines, but you seem to care about the technicalities'details of everything else involving you "plan"?

There's really not that much detail to the plan.  Stake out the relay.  Lots of methods.  Hence, plot hole.

I like the mine idea cause I just like it.

If the plan to camp the relay had been taken then there wouldn't be the plot with Shepard and the team, thus it wouldn't be a plot hole ,because it wouldn't be apart of this plot. It would become something separate.

If they actually scoped out the Omega-4 relay, then of course it wouldn't be a plot hole.  That's what I'm arguing.

What would become something separate?

It's how you carry out the plan that gets results.


A new plot line would form. Example: an alternate reality.

[wulf3n]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
Actually the Normandy SR-2 had armor shields and tech to begin with. Shepard just asks if anyone has any ideas for upgrades. So Shepard's initiative was to have the Ship and Crew be better equipped. Why not cover all your battle needs by collecting an army and upgrading your ship.

Ok perhaps arguing over whether or not a single cruiser, is being prepared for a space battle is subjective. But it still doesn't explain TIM's eagerness to go through the Relay. Yes you can speculate on his reasons, that he's just out for himself or whatever. But name me one good movie, where someone betrays you, and their reason is never explained, or they are only using you as a tool, but they're true motives are never explained!

[Sparda Stonerule]

wulf3n wrote...

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
Actually the Normandy SR-2 had armor shields and tech to begin with. Shepard just asks if anyone has any ideas for upgrades. So Shepard's initiative was to have the Ship and Crew be better equipped. Why not cover all your battle needs by collecting an army and upgrading your ship.

Ok perhaps arguing over whether or not a single cruiser, is being prepared for a space battle is subjective. But it still doesn't explain TIM's eagerness to go through the Relay. Yes you can speculate on his reasons, that he's just out for himself or whatever. But name me one good movie, where someone betrays you, and their reason is never explained, or they are only using you as a tool, but they're true motives are never explained!

Lord of the Rings. Sauruman betrays his entire order of wizards. It boils down to "he's kind of an elitist ******". So his true motives were never fully explained.

[wulf3n]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
Lord of the Rings. Sauruman betrays his entire order of wizards. It boils down to "he's kind of an elitist ******". So his true motives were never fully explained.

I was under the impression Sauruman's reasons were similiar to that of Saren. They were afraid of the evil coming and decided to obey rather than fight. like Beni would say It is better to be the right hand of the devil than in his path.

[Sparda Stonerule]

Well that's simply not true. Not once in the book did anyone say it's better to join Sauron than be against him. In fact he never tells anyone to join him, he's just out to destroy people.

[wulf3n]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

Well that's simply not true. Not once in the book did anyone say it's better to join Sauron than be against him. In fact he never tells anyone to join him, he's just out to destroy people.

It does in the movie, and i've never read the book.

[smudboy]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

Well trade does exist with the collectors. They traded with Okeer did they not? He even states they are "very available if your sacrifice is great enough". While I am not arguing that merc bands may be upset (because I am not) I am stating that these mines you are talking about don't actually exist. Sure they could but unless they do exist they can't be used. They can only be theoretically used. Which is what you are doing, you are inventing a scenario in which you combine several pieces of tech to use in a hypothetical situation.

You tell people not to use hypothetical situations, yet you use hypothetical situations to try and prove points.

What hypothetical situations am I using to prove a point?  I am taking two ideas, two pieces of technology, two very physical and real things, and making a thing that already exists to constitute whatever qualities you think it needs.

Oh and mines already exist.  Just not to whatever specs you have in mind or your interpretation of "scoping the relay" constitutes.

[smudboy]

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...
The Collectors have made trade agreements with various groups; people for technology.

Which?

Your whole idea of combining all of these items to make an unknown amount of mines seems like a really long drawn out process. Then, you might say, " You upgrade at the click of a button!". We don't know how long it takes to make the upgrades, it could be done while en route somewhere or while at Omega/Citadel/Illium et cetera, et cetera. Shepard also never seems to sleep.

Again I don't care about the technicalities or details of how a mine is built.

It upgrades at the click of a button.

[Sparda Stonerule]

Oh god that's even better Sauron would kill Sauruman even though Sauruman was helping him. Why? Because he wants everyone dead. Saren would have been killed by Sovereign even though Saren helped it. Why? Because he wants everyone.



Now why do these two main villains want everyone dead exactly? Well that's never explained. So there you have it two good stories that have a villain using a tool without really explaining their motives.

[Sparda Stonerule]

smudboy wrote...

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...
The Collectors have made trade agreements with various groups; people for technology.

Which?

Your whole idea of combining all of these items to make an unknown amount of mines seems like a really long drawn out process. Then, you might say, " You upgrade at the click of a button!". We don't know how long it takes to make the upgrades, it could be done while en route somewhere or while at Omega/Citadel/Illium et cetera, et cetera. Shepard also never seems to sleep.

Again I don't care about the technicalities or details of how a mine is built.

It upgrades at the click of a button.

Dear lord smud I just said that in the last post. They made a trade agreement with Okeer. Also I will quote the Mass Effect wiki.
They are most well known for their odd trade requests for which they offer new technologies, often of a startling level of advancement. Their requests usually involve the trade of living beings in odd numbers and varieties, such as two dozen left-handed salarians, sixteen sets of batarian twins, a krogan born of parents from feuding clans, or two dozen "pure" quarians — quarians that have never left the Migrant Fleet due to illness, importance to the fleet, or disability. One of their current interests is in healthy human biotics. No one knows what happens to the individuals concerned after the exchange is completed.

Also your hypothetical situation is one where someone combines two technologies to make a new piece of tech that doesn't exist. Unless it exists in the universe it's hypothetical.

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

smudboy wrote...

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...
The Collectors have made trade agreements with various groups; people for technology.

Which?

Your whole idea of combining all of these items to make an unknown amount of mines seems like a really long drawn out process. Then, you might say, " You upgrade at the click of a button!". We don't know how long it takes to make the upgrades, it could be done while en route somewhere or while at Omega/Citadel/Illium et cetera, et cetera. Shepard also never seems to sleep.

Again I don't care about the technicalities or details of how a mine is built.

It upgrades at the click of a button.

In Mass Effect: Ascension it states how the Collectors make deals with groups, it doesn't state which.


In the game we have no idea as to how long it takes to actually install the upgrades, because it surely wouldn't happen instantly. The point is that in the time it would take to assemble and place all of your "mines" the Shepard plan could have been done.

[smudboy]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
Dear lord smud I just said that in the last post. They made a trade agreement with Okeer. Also I will quote the Mass Effect wiki.
They are most well known for their odd trade requests for which they offer new technologies, often of a startling level of advancement. Their requests usually involve the trade of living beings in odd numbers and varieties, such as two dozen left-handed salarians, sixteen sets of batarian twins, a krogan born of parents from feuding clans, or two dozen "pure" quarians — quarians that have never left the Migrant Fleet due to illness, importance to the fleet, or disability. One of their current interests is in healthy human biotics. No one knows what happens to the individuals concerned after the exchange is completed.

So who do they trade with?

Also your hypothetical situation is one where someone combines two technologies to make a new piece of tech that doesn't exist. Unless it exists in the universe it's hypothetical.

Mines already do exist in ME.

[Sparda Stonerule]

Again quoting the wiki.



The Collectors themselves are rarely seen since they usually operate through agents, such as the quarian Golo, to make their deals. It has been speculated that the Collectors make these strange requests because of strange fetishes or gruesome culinary tastes. However, it is more likely that they perform genetic experiments on these subjects, possibly testing their viability for use in the creation of a Reaper. Regardless of the possible danger, their requests are often granted by fringe groups because the technology the Collectors offer in return is often extremely valuable, giving any race who receives it an immediate advantage before it becomes adapted to the galactic community.



So they trade with anyone willing to provide what they need. I.E. Someone like Okeer (which happened in game).



Mines may exist but the specific mines you conjured up do not. Something that is like something else does not mean the thing you want to exist does. Is it really so hard to admit the specific space mines you are talking about do not exist?