581 réponses à ce sujet

[smudboy]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

Again quoting the wiki.

The Collectors themselves are rarely seen since they usually operate through agents, such as the quarian Golo, to make their deals. It has been speculated that the Collectors make these strange requests because of strange fetishes or gruesome culinary tastes. However, it is more likely that they perform genetic experiments on these subjects, possibly testing their viability for use in the creation of a Reaper. Regardless of the possible danger, their requests are often granted by fringe groups because the technology the Collectors offer in return is often extremely valuable, giving any race who receives it an immediate advantage before it becomes adapted to the galactic community.

So they trade with anyone willing to provide what they need. I.E. Someone like Okeer (which happened in game).

So Golo would get angry?

So they can only trade if the Collectors have what they need?  What if they don't?  Then they wouldn't?  So which groups, and what properties would it constitute for them to trade, and then, for them to notice the Relay (that no one pays attention to), and then be able to contact the Collectors?

Mines may exist but the specific mines you conjured up do not. Something that is like something else does not mean the thing you want to exist does. Is it really so hard to admit the specific space mines you are talking about do not exist?

And what specific space mines are you referring to?

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

smudboy wrote...



Again I don't care about the technicalities or details of how a mine is built.



It upgrades at the click of a button.

In the game we have no idea as to how long it takes to actually install the upgrades, because it surely wouldn't happen instantly. The point is that in the time it would take to assemble and place all of your "mines" the Shepard plan could have been done.

[Sparda Stonerule]

Proximity mines exist. Mines that can stay in place in space do not exist. Besides I'm not arguing that anyone would get mad about a mine field around the Relay, even though theoretically they could. I'm arguing that you said the Collectors don't deal with people, even though they do. Just not very publicly or very often.

I'm not even arguing that your hypothetical situations may be a good idea. I'm just arguing that based on the narrative and the things that the game tells you your situation is just hypothetical. Given that tech doesn't exist, and the Collectors do have trade partners who may or may not be angry at a mine field around a Relay anyway. Your supposition is grounded in a lot of situational inferences. You do not know how these plans would play out because nothing like them has ever happened in the entire history of the series.

Your series of events constitutes an alternate timeline with some changes being made to the entire universe. So you are, in fact, creating hypothetical situations.

Modifié par Sparda Stonerule, 30 juillet 2010 - 02:54 .

[smudboy]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
Proximity mines exist. Mines that can stay in place in space do not exist. Besides I'm not arguing that anyone would get mad about a mine field around the Relay, even though theoretically they could. I'm arguing that you said the Collectors don't deal with people, even though they do. Just not very publicly or very often.

So proximity mines exist?  Okay.

How about comm buoys, hazard beacons, probes, and satellites?

I'm not even arguing that your hypothetical situations may be a good idea. I'm just arguing that based on the narrative and the things that the game tells your your situation is just hypothetical. Given that tech does exist, and the Collectors do have trade partners who may or may not be angry at a mine field around a Relay. Your supposition is grounded in a lot of situational inferences. You do not know how these plans would play out because nothing like them has ever happened in the entire history of the series.

I'm just trying to point to actual merc groups that exist and would have these intentions toward the mine field.

Your series of events constitutes an alternate timeline with some changes being made to the entire universe. So you are, in fact, creating hypothetical situations.

I don't see how destroying the Collectors before or after the relay is a "great change" to the universe.

This is actually irrelevant.  I'm merely pointing out not staking out the relay is a plot hole.

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

smudboy wrote...

This is actually irrelevant.  I'm merely pointing out not staking out the relay is a plot hole.

Because it would be a waste of time.

[Throw_this_away]

wulf3n wrote...

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
Actually the Normandy SR-2 had armor shields and tech to begin with. Shepard just asks if anyone has any ideas for upgrades. So Shepard's initiative was to have the Ship and Crew be better equipped. Why not cover all your battle needs by collecting an army and upgrading your ship.

Ok perhaps arguing over whether or not a single cruiser, is being prepared for a space battle is subjective. But it still doesn't explain TIM's eagerness to go through the Relay. Yes you can speculate on his reasons, that he's just out for himself or whatever. But name me one good movie, where someone betrays you, and their reason is never explained, or they are only using you as a tool, but they're true motives are never explained!

Did you see TIMs face when you give him the collector ship.  That picture is worth a million words. 

Everyone has differnt views... but to me TIMs motives are clear.  But then, I think the writers left TIMS reasons/goals ambiguous on purpose.  It gives more freedom to write in ME3... and leaves us wondering if he is truly in it for himself or not. 

I think this entire thread is just intellectual masturbation at the moment.  Sure it is fun... but until ME3 comes out... we are going nowhere.  

Modifié par Throw_this_away, 30 juillet 2010 - 03:05 .

[Whatever42]

wulf3n wrote...

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
Lord of the Rings. Sauruman betrays his entire order of wizards. It boils down to "he's kind of an elitist ******". So his true motives were never fully explained.

I was under the impression Sauruman's reasons were similiar to that of Saren. They were afraid of the evil coming and decided to obey rather than fight. like Beni would say It is better to be the right hand of the devil than in his path.

Sauruman was a essentially an angel sent to Middle Earth to help the people there defend against a fallen angel, Sauron. He's not afraid of being conquered. He's not native to Middle Earth. And Sauron isn't the devil. He's the devil's sidekick. His master is locked behind the gate of night. So Sauramun betrayed God to side with a lesser sidekick of the devil because he was afraid the evil dude would conquer a bunch of mortals in a realm where he didn't even have to stick around?

Its a gaping plot hole. Every novel, every game, every movie apparently has them by these definitions. Pointing them out is like pointing out punctuation.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 30 juillet 2010 - 02:59 .

[Whatever42]

nvm

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 30 juillet 2010 - 03:00 .

[Sparda Stonerule]

Because the stake out, as I said earlier, would just tell you that they do indeed use the Relay occasionally. I have said many times that the Collector Cruiser may not even return through the Relay very often.



Then I recall that we don't even know they only used one ship until TIM sends us on a Mission to look around the one that is supposedly disabled. Even then we have no idea if that is their only ship. So it's not like anyone would know taking out that one ship would hurt them. In fact most people probably assume that if they blow up one ship a whole fleet could show up and do a lot of damage.



So given revelations through the narrative we come to realize that one ship has been following Shepard for two years. Unless you magically knew it was the same ship until most of the way through the game.



So this point is moot because no one could know taking out one ship would have done anything worth while, considering if you blow one up more could come in assistance. It's not like I knew as I was playing the game that there was only 1 ship, well 1 that we have encountered.

[smudboy]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
Because the stake out, as I said earlier, would just tell you that they do indeed use the Relay occasionally. I have said many times that the Collector Cruiser may not even return through the Relay very often.

But would we be able to detect them?

Then I recall that we don't even know they only used one ship until TIM sends us on a Mission to look around the one that is supposedly disabled. Even then we have no idea if that is their only ship. So it's not like anyone would know taking out that one ship would hurt them. In fact most people probably assume that if they blow up one ship a whole fleet could show up and do a lot of damage.

So would destroying one ship hurt them?

So given revelations through the narrative we come to realize that one ship has been following Shepard for two years. Unless you magically knew it was the same ship until most of the way through the game.

Would EDI/Joker be able to determine it's the same ship if we encountered it again?

[Sparda Stonerule]

We would be able to detect them, but they can also detect us and at the time no one would know if the Normandy could take on the Collector Ship. Destroying one ship could hurt them, but it could also trigger an all out war with them. That would be a war we could theoretically lose so it's not preferable. EDI and Joker would be able to tell, however at the point in the story when you figure out it was the same ship, scouting the Relay is no longer a good option. We concluded their Home World is beyond that Relay so if we want to permanently shut them down we'd have to use the Relay to shut them down. So a stake out would be a contrived waste of time. If you are suggesting that EDI and Joker could tell it's the same ship beforehand there would be no reason for Joker to have his hunches about it being the same. Besides that EDI has to be close to the ship she is scanning. She says as much herself.



So this hypothetical stake out wouldn't be a good idea based on the narrative you are given based on doing things rather than waiting.

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

You seem to fail to grasp that camping the relay wouldn't accomplish anything.

[smudboy]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

We would be able to detect them, but they can also detect us and at the time no one would know if the Normandy could take on the Collector Ship. Destroying one ship could hurt them, but it could also trigger an all out war with them.

So if we stake them out, and we can detect them, and they can detect us, would it be wise to be prepared for them militarily?

That would be a war we could theoretically lose so it's not preferable.

Are we at war with the Collectors?

EDI and Joker would be able to tell, however at the point in the story when you figure out it was the same ship, scouting the Relay is no longer a good option.

But doesn't this scenario already involve scouting and detecting and fighting the Collector ship?

We concluded their Home World is beyond that Relay so if we want to permanently shut them down we'd have to use the Relay to shut them down. So a stake out would be a contrived waste of time. If you are suggesting that EDI and Joker could tell it's the same ship beforehand there would be no reason for Joker to have his hunches about it being the same. Besides that EDI has to be close to the ship she is scanning. She says as much herself.

But don't we want to Stop the Collectors from taking human colonies?  And if we stake out the Omega-4 relay, would we be able to detect them, and stop them from going elsewhere in the galaxy by fighting them?  And if we win that battle, don't we still need to go through the relay anyway to "finish the job"?

So this hypothetical stake out wouldn't be a good idea based on the narrative you are given based on doing things rather than waiting.

Would actively seeking out the Collectors in your spaceship to stop them from taking human colonies be better than getting ground soldiers?

[wulf3n]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
Now why do these two main villains want everyone dead exactly? Well that's never explained. So there you have it two good stories that have a villain using a tool without really explaining their motives.

Again i'm going off my knowledge of the movies not the books, but Sauron doesn't want everyone dead, he wants to rule middle earth.

As for the reapers, who knows, but that's apart of the trilogy not the a single game. whereas TIM's unknown knowledge about the collectors,that sets up every single thing we do, is specific to ME2.

Sorry about the late reply, had to go buy another chair..

Modifié par wulf3n, 30 juillet 2010 - 05:30 .

[Sparda Stonerule]

smudboy wrote...
So if we stake them out, and we can detect them, and they can detect us, would it be wise to be prepared for them militarily?

Smud your situation is based purely on hypothesis. If we were to stake it out the entire game, then no we wouldn't need a ground team. But even if we took out that one ship they still have their base and possibly more ships.

smudboy wrote...
Are we at war with the Collectors?

Not an all out war. Like I said in that point in the story you have no idea how many ships they have. The Normandy would not be able to handle multiple ships. They have doubts about even taking out one ship.

smudboy wrote...
But doesn't this scenario already involve scouting and detecting and fighting the Collector ship?

No Smud it doesn't. You are combining what happened in the game with your stakeout. EDI already scanned the thing in the game. The only reason that happened is because she was able to get close to it. If you staked out the Relay for the entire game EDI wouldn't even get close enough to scan it. Worse than that the Collector Ship only uses the Omega 4 Relay once in the entire game, after it kidnaps your crew. So if you never were actively searching for the Collectors you'd never get the IFF, and the Collectors wouldn't use the Relay until after they collected all the Humans they need.

smudboy wrote...
But don't we want to Stop the Collectors from taking human colonies?  And if we stake out the Omega-4 relay, would we be able to detect them, and stop them from going elsewhere in the galaxy by fighting them?  And if we win that battle, don't we still need to go through the relay anyway to "finish the job"?

Again, they only use the Omega 4 Relay once, and that's after they get your crew. No active searching means Horizon would have been completely taken, you never boarded their ship, and you never got the IFF. So they'd just be out there in space Collecting people. Once again, had we not boarded their ship we'd never know it's the same ship that blew up the Normandy. Therefore we'd have know way of guessing they may have one ship. Even then we wouldn't know for sure if we can take out that one ship. But even if you did take it out you wouldn't know if they have more waiting beyond the Relay. Since we don't know the number of ships they have, parking yourself right next to the thing that only they can use seems like a bad idea.

smudboy wrote...
Would actively seeking out the Collectors in your spaceship to stop them from taking human colonies be better than getting ground soldiers?

I think you fail to realize that we do actively seek them. Since throughout the game they only use that Relay once, we do actively seek them. We gather ground forces for a possible strike out their home world while TIM gathers data. So a stake out would be less pro active and lead to more colonies lost in total. Thus voiding any possible use a stake out would have.

Modifié par Sparda Stonerule, 30 juillet 2010 - 01:25 .

[smudboy]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
Smud your situation is based purely on hypothesis. If we were to stake it out the entire game, then no we wouldn't need a ground team. But even if we took out that one ship they still have their base and possibly more ships.

We agree that staking them out wouldn't require a ground team.

Would it not be wise, after taking out that one ship, to prepare for taking out potentially more ships, as well as a potential base?

Not an all out war. Like I said in that point in the story you have no idea how many ships they have. The Normandy would not be able to handle multiple ships. They have doubts about even taking out one ship.

If we are expecting multiple ships, would it not be wise to prepare to fight a ship battle?

No Smud it doesn't. You are combining what happened in the game with your stakeout. EDI already scanned the thing in the game. The only reason that happened is because she was able to get close to it. If you staked out the Relay for the entire game EDI wouldn't even get close enough to scan it. Worse than that the Collector Ship only uses the Omega 4 Relay once in the entire game, after it kidnaps your crew. So if you never were actively searching for the Collectors you'd never get the IFF, and the Collectors wouldn't use the Relay until after they collected all the Humans they need.

Would not the EM signature of the Collector ship on Horizon be the same whether EDI was "close" to it or far away?  If she was able to get an EM signature from the Collector ship (that was on the planet) from orbit, then would it also make sense that she wouldn't need to be "close" to get an EM signature like in the Disabled Collector Cruiser mission?  Thus, if we encountered the same ship again at the Omega-4 relay, would it also be possible for her to determine it's the same as Horizon?

Again, they only use the Omega 4 Relay once, and that's after they get your crew.

How do we know they do/will use the Relay once?  If we were to stake out the relay, would we not be able to detect when they in fact use the relay?

No active searching means Horizon would have been completely taken, you never boarded their ship, and you never got the IFF.

How does staking out the relay (in any variety of means) interfere with other missions?

So they'd just be out there in space Collecting people. Once again, had we not boarded their ship we'd never know it's the same ship that blew up the Normandy.

It is not necessary.  The EM profile data is merely compared to data from the original Normandy two years ago.  That EM profile data was also not gained by boarding the ship.

Therefore we'd have know way of guessing they may have one ship. Even then we wouldn't know for sure if we can take out that one ship. But even if you did take it out you wouldn't know if they have more waiting beyond the Relay. Since we don't know the number of ships they have, parking yourself right next to the thing that only they can use seems like a bad idea.

You bring up the argument that we wouldn't know this is the same ship from 2 years ago.  Well, we know that EM signatures can be gained from the ship by not being close to them, like on Horizon, and 2 years ago.  However, how we get this data is irrelevant, as it doesn't tell us how many other ships there are in their fleet.

Considering this is not discussed at all in the narrative anyway is also irrelevant.  The idea is still to gain data on the Collectors.

Staking out the relay can involve a number of tactics (mines, spy satellites, more ships, etc.)  Would it not be wise to have a prepared encounter with the Collectors, like at a stakeout, then simply going through the Relay and hoping for the best?

smudboy wrote...
I think you fail to realize that we do actively seek them. Since throughout the game they only use that Relay once, we do actively seek them. We gather ground forces for a possible strike out their home world while TIM gathers data. So a stake out would be less pro active and lead to more colonies lost in total. Thus voiding any possible use a stake out would have.

We do not know they only use the Relay once.

How is gathering ground forces "Actively seeking the Collectors?"  That does not correlate.

If we stake out the relay, would we not be able to detect when they leave/enter the Terminus system?  Would there also not be a greater chance of stopping, or at least following them, given when this occurs, as opposed to random getting soldiers, whether camping the relay, or using any number of surveilance options? We already know of Ferris Fields and New Canton being lost as we pursued other goals.  Would it not be wise to stop them as soon as possible, by staking out the location they're guaranteed to be, in any data gathering method available?

Modifié par smudboy, 30 juillet 2010 - 03:25 .

[Sparda Stonerule]

You misread my argument. We are gathering forces while TIM collects data. Staking out the Relay would not have let us detect the Collectors attack on Horizon faster. Staking out the Relay would not lead to the Collectors setting a trap that TIM let Shepard walk into. From the trap we learn there is a home world, and TIM finds out that the ship has a Reaper made IFF. Staking out the Relay would not have worked in the capacity because TIM finds this out from EDI's data mining. Then we would never know how to get through the Omega 4 Relay.

TIM knows the Collectors use the Relay, and in order to stop them completely we need to take out their main planet/base. So as TIM gathers info we build our team. I mean you are suggesting we stake out the relay just in case. We build a team in game just in case we need a ground team when we get to the base.

Staking out the Relay personally would completely halt recruiting people. Not only that but without those people, and while we are sitting out in space we won't be upgrading our ship. So TIM is actively gathering info while we gather a team.

In short TIM's plan does in fact make sense. He takes a risk but Cerberus has a track record for taking risks and doing things that may be perceived as bad.

In the end you are arguing doing one thing just in case makes more sense than doing what happened during the game just in case. Even though you have no idea if TIM is monitoring the Omega 4 Relay. He has a vast information network. He could be monitoring a lot of things and not telling us.

Your who argument is based on guesswork, despite you telling people not to guess. I know you'll never admit it, but as soon as I concede one minor point out of your whole thing you take it and run with it. Whenever someone makes a minor mistake you only address that and rip it to shreds. I know that's a decent debate tactic but at least I'm attempting to be fair.

The fact of the matter is your whole plan is just a bunch of coincidental circumstances. This game does have a plot, and Shepard is following the only possible lead he has on the Reapers. Unless of course you can point out a lead he may have that is provided by the game.

Modifié par Sparda Stonerule, 30 juillet 2010 - 10:38 .

[smudboy]

You misread my argument. We are gathering forces while TIM collects data. Staking out the Relay would not have let us detect the Collectors attack on Horizon faster. Staking out the Relay would not lead to the Collectors setting a trap that TIM let Shepard walk into. From the trap we learn there is a home world, and TIM finds out that the ship has a Reaper made IFF. Staking out the Relay would not have worked in the capacity because TIM finds this out from EDI's data mining. Then we would never know how to get through the Omega 4 Relay.

Why are we collecting forces if all we know of the Collectors is that they have a ship?

Why would staking out the relay not have told us when they enter/leave the Omega Cluster, which would be when they go off to attack Horizon?

From the "trap" we learn they are probably located in the galactic core, not that they have a homeworld.

Considering it is the plan to go through the relay anyway, and TIM is already aware of the IFF from the Derelict Reaper before any of these events, what difference does datamining the Collector Cruiser do, aside from tell us they're located somewhere in the galactic core?

TIM knows the Collectors use the Relay, and in order to stop them completely we need to take out their main planet/base. So as TIM gathers info we build our team. I mean you are suggesting we stake out the relay just in case. We build a team in game just in case we need a ground team when we get to the base.

Why are we building a team?

I suggest we stake out the relay because it's the easiest and simplest solution to finding the Collectors.  Simple telemetry observations can tell us where they're going if they FTL to other locales.

Why would we need a ground team if we're taking on an unknown enemy in space, especially since we don't know what's passed the Omega-4 relay?  Wouldn't it be wiser to get more ship weapons, and more ships?

Staking out the Relay personally would completely halt recruiting people. Not only that but without those people, and while we are sitting out in space we won't be upgrading our ship. So TIM is actively gathering info while we gather a team.

Gathering people has nothing to do with upgrading the ship: it just so happens said people have upgrades.  If they're integral to the people, TIM would've said so.  These upgrades can be achieved through other means.  Additionally, these upgrades are not plot integral, and are ultimately not needed.

Whether the SR2 is waiting at the relay, we have spy satellites, mines, etc., we need data on our enemy, like where they are and where they're going.

In short TIM's plan does in fact make sense. He takes a risk but Cerberus has a track record for taking risks and doing things that may be perceived as bad.

What part of TIM's plan makes sense?  What is TIM's plan in the first place?  I certainly don't recall what the plan was.  If it was to get people, and that's ...all...then it's a complete waste of time.

What's wrong with staking out the relay again?  If we can mine planets, surely we can stake out a relay.  It would probably be faster.

In the end you are arguing doing one thing just in case makes more sense than doing what happened during the game just in case. Even though you have no idea if TIM is monitoring the Omega 4 Relay. He has a vast information network. He could be monitoring a lot of things and not telling us.

And that's part of the point.  If the narrative does not tell us he is doing this, it is a plot hole.  Even if the narrative does tell us, it is still a plot hole, unless TIM follows up with "I have a constant vigil over the Omega-4 relay."  TIM and Shepard are aware of the Omega-4 Relay-Collector connection, as is the audience.  That's what makes it a plot hole: it's obvious, it's simple, it's clear.

Your who argument is based on guesswork, despite you telling people not to guess. I know you'll never admit it, but as soon as I concede one minor point out of your whole thing you take it and run with it. Whenever someone makes a minor mistake you only address that and rip it to shreds. I know that's a decent debate tactic but at least I'm attempting to be fair.

My argument is based around a simple solution: follow the obvious lead.  Does TIM do so?  No.

I am not guessing anything.  We know the Collectors use the Omega-4 relay.  They could've used any relay, but it's the Omega-4.  The fact that ONLY THEY use it is simply more points in favor to trying this option.  It's obvious.  You go to where your enemy is.  You attack them.  Since you can't locate them, you need to.  Staking out the relay would assist in locating them.  You could even lay an ambush, or build up your forces at the relay the more times you encounter them, if a pattern of their comings and goings occur.  It would be like building up a small fleet or offense of your own: like having a battle plan.  Something that this plot is extremely lacking of.

The methods are technicalities which there are a number of ways to account for: most of which you do not like because you can't put two ideas of existing objects together.  And that's good for you and that specific solution; but that's doesn't negate the overall concept.

The fact of the matter is your whole plan is just a bunch of coincidental circumstances. This game does have a plot, and Shepard is following the only possible lead he has on the Reapers. Unless of course you can point out a lead he may have that is provided by the game.

While it is true, watching something and waiting for an event can be considered coincidental, it does occur.  We simply don't know when exactly or how many other times this event did occur (with the loss New Canton and Ferris Fields.)  The point is we get data on our enemy, not just wait for whatever TIM says for us to do, like stupidly collecting soldiers for 0 reasons.

This game does not have a plot for several reasons, which I'm sure you're aware of from me.  Either way I'm not going to explain that.

As I've stated before, there is the lead: the relay.  It is viable, it is logical.  Obviously not as efficient as you'd "coincidentally" like, but I see no problems of accounting for it: our enemy uses it, and only our enemy.  Eventually, they'll have to.  It is not coincidental: it is deterministic.  The issue for that is when.  I'm sure staking it out would take time, like any stake out, you're watching and waiting.  This does not make it a bad lead, or a poor choice: every choice should be tried.  The fact that the narratie does not account for this choice, makes it a clear plot hole.

[Soverign 666]

I really hope smudboy takes over ME3 so we can spend the game setting up mines and sending spy satiliates to find more intel and never actually fight anything at all

[Anezay]

Ways to destroy omega 4:
Astroid X57 that ****.
Drag it into a star. Even if it somehow survives there, any ships coming out won't.
Get Garrus to do it.
Turn off the game.
Now the Collectors are stuck in the core. Go back to trying to get various crew members to take their tops off.

Modifié par Anezay, 31 juillet 2010 - 12:25 .

[Sparda Stonerule]

Except you said yourself that it's our job to stop them, and seeing how staking out the Relay wouldn't give us all the intel we need it's no viable.

The game does have a plot. The definition of a plot is, and I quote: Also called storyline. the plan, scheme, or main story of a literary or dramatic work, as a play, novel, or short story. Which the game does have. So your argument there is completely null and void.

Your plan to stake out the Relay may or may not work. TIM's plan may or may not have worked. TIM took the option preferable to him and you would take the option preferable to you. Either way it leaves you with a plan that may or may not work.

I contend that just because there are alternate methods to perhaps deal with a situation does not constitute a plot hole. Small gaps in logic are commonplace even in the real world (just think about most wars) and I honestly dare you to tell me any famous and well loved story that does no have plot holes.

I know Mass Effect 2 is not what you wanted and you much prefer ME 1 to ME 2. But just because your prefer one game over the other doesn't make it wrong. Besides based on your video analysis it's clear that you will never budge on the issue. I've systematically pointed you out for being a hypocrite because you make up "what if" scenarios when you tell others not to. Even more evidence that you are a hypocrite is that you clearly stated you don't care about the technicalities of the tech you personally want to exist to fit your plan, yet you clearly care about the technicalities of the story.

I've pointed out that the game does in fact have a plot because it's part of a storyline. By the end of the game Shepard gets information about the Reapers, and he used his only lead to get that info. Kind of how Shepard used his only leads in ME 1 to get info on Saren and where he is, Shepard used his one lead in this game to get info on Harbinger. Just because you don't agree with the direction of the plot doesn't mean the game has no plot.

The main point is you haven't even come up with counter arguments. You are just asking me questions on what could happen . When you came up with counter arguments I've provided evidence about the Collectors actually trading with people. About the type of mines you want not existing because they do not, given that you can provide no links to the exact type of mines you want existing.

I've stuck to the narrative given, I've even used references from the game itself. You just go about making assumptions about how often the Collectors may use the Relay, you assume that a stake out might provide useful intel, you assume that even if we managed to scan the Collector Ship briefly you'd get as much data as we got from the actual data mine that happened in the plot (data mining gets you more intel than a brief scan).

Just because you feel your plan is logical doesn't make it logical. It means it's a plan that makes sense to you and I have pointed out several reasons why I feel your plan wouldn't be viable. This clearly means that there is doubt about the plans validity. You have to know that there is no one best way to handle any situation. Any problem involving living beings has many layers and no one plan will work best because there will always be people who disagree with it.

Just because you disagree with a situation doesn't mean it's wrong and just because you agree doesn't make it right. It means you have an opinion and we all already know your opinion.

Long story short, using the dictionary definition of plot the game does have a plot. Plus the major irony is you saying the game has plot holes even though you say there is no plot. Another case alluding to you being a hypocrite who uses double standards.

smudboy wrote...

And that's part of the point.  If the narrative does not tell us he is doing this, it is a plot hole.  Even if the narrative does tell us, it is still a plot hole, unless TIM follows up with "I have a constant vigil over the Omega-4 relay."  TIM and Shepard are aware of the Omega-4 Relay-Collector connection, as is the audience.  That's what makes it a plot hole: it's obvious, it's simple, it's clear.

This game does not have a plot for several reasons, which I'm sure you're aware of from me.  Either way I'm not going to explain that.

Modifié par Sparda Stonerule, 31 juillet 2010 - 12:41 .

[Whatever42]

Anezay wrote...

Ways to destroy omega 4:
Astroid X57 that ****.
Drag it into a star. Even if it somehow survives there, any ships coming out won't.
Get Garrus to do it.
Turn off the game.
Now the Collectors are stuck in the core. Go back to trying to get various crew members to take their tops off.

I thought of the star but the problem is that now the Collectors are likely trapped on this side of the Omega 4 Relay. Until the very end of the game, the Collectors are roaming around grabbing folks. Although, we never really know where they are. We also don't know where the relay goes until we get the IFF so there's really no way to know how much it messes them up. 

And that would preclude us from ever launching an attack through it. Remember, the Collectors are minor compared to the Reapers.

TIM and Shepard agree to go on the offensive. There wasn't a great deal of exposition on their decision. There was no council of Elrond where they discussed safer alternatives like dropping the ring in the sea. Actually, in the LotR movie, there was no real discussion on that either, so clearly them going to Mordor is a plot hole as well.

[Sparda Stonerule]

[sarcasm] But there is no plot. You can't have a plot hole with no plot present [/sarcasm]

[Whatever42]

If you really want to talk about plot holes, John Farrier has found a huge plot hole:

__________________



I think the worst offender here is the History Channel and all their programs on the so-called “World War II”.[...]



Anyway, they spend the whole season building up how the Japanese home islands are a fortress, and the Japanese will never surrender, and there’s no way to take the Japanese home islands because they’re invincible…and then they realize they totally can’t have the Americans take the Japanese home islands so they have no way to wrap up the season.



So they invent a completely implausible superweapon that they’ve never mentioned until now. Apparently the Americans got some scientists together to invent it, only we never heard anything about it because it was “classified”. In two years, the scientists manage to invent a weapon a thousand times more powerful than anything anyone’s ever seen before – drawing from, of course, ancient mystical texts. Then they use the superweapon, blow up several Japanese cities easily, and the Japanese surrender. Convenient, isn’t it?



…and then, in the entire rest of the show, over five or six different big wars, they never use the superweapon again. Seriously. They have this whole thing about a war in Vietnam that lasts decades and kills tens of thousands of people, and they never wonder if maybe they should consider using the frickin’ unstoppable mystical superweapon that they won the last war with. At this point, you’re starting to wonder if any of the show’s writers have even watched the episodes the other writers made.

[smudboy]

[quote]Sparda Stonerule wrote...
Except you said yourself that it's our job to stop them, and seeing how staking out the Relay wouldn't give us all the intel we need it's no viable.
[/quote]
It is our job to Stop the Collectors.  That doesn't make the plan not viable.  It is merely a lead, a solution to the problem.

[quote]
The game does have a plot. The definition of a plot is, and I quote: Also called storyline. the plan, scheme, or main story of a literary or dramatic work, as a play, novel, or short story. Which the game does have. So your argument there is completely null and void.
[/quote]
What is the game's plot?

[quote]
Your plan to stake out the Relay may or may not work. TIM's plan may or may not have worked. TIM took the option preferable to him and you would take the option preferable to you. Either way it leaves you with a plan that may or may not work.
[/quote]
Since I don't know what TIM's plan is, I don't know what you're referring to.  That is irrelevant: the point I'm making is a simple solution exists, and you simply can't see it, even if the audience, and the characters involved do.

[quote]
I contend that just because there are alternate methods to perhaps deal with a situation does not constitute a plot hole.
[/quote]
But that's what a plot hole is.  If you have a problem with the definition, please do not argue that with me.

[quote]
Small gaps in logic are commonplace even in the real world (just think about most wars) and I honestly dare you to tell me any famous and well loved story that does no have plot holes.
[/quote]
I am only referring to ME2.

[quote]
I know Mass Effect 2 is not what you wanted and you much prefer ME 1 to ME 2. But just because your prefer one game over the other doesn't make it wrong. Besides based on your video analysis it's clear that you will never budge on the issue. I've systematically pointed you out for being a hypocrite because you make up "what if" scenarios when you tell others not to. Even more evidence that you are a hypocrite is that you clearly stated you don't care about the technicalities of the tech you personally want to exist to fit your plan, yet you clearly care about the technicalities of the story.
[/quote]
I can easily budge on staking out the relay as being a plot hole.  It's a conclusion based on a simple observation.

What is why "what if" scenario that makes me a hypocrite?

[quote]
I've pointed out that the game does in fact have a plot because it's part of a storyline. By the end of the game Shepard gets information about the Reapers, and he used his only lead to get that info. Kind of how Shepard used his only leads in ME 1 to get info on Saren and where he is, Shepard used his one lead in this game to get info on Harbinger. Just because you don't agree with the direction of the plot doesn't mean the game has no plot.
[/quote]
What is part of the storyline?  What is the game's plot?  If you would tell me then maybe Icould agree with you.

[quote]
The main point is you haven't even come up with counter arguments. You are just asking me questions on what could happen . When you came up with counter arguments I've provided evidence about the Collectors actually trading with people. About the type of mines you want not existing because they do not, given that you can provide no links to the exact type of mines you want existing.
[/quote]
These are technicalities on the technology that exists in some shape or form.  For example, I don't know of the technicalities of all the technology in the universe, like the comm buoys.  Yet we have probes that can contain nuclear payloads in them.  Can we not have comm buoys that have nuclear payloads in them? Oh but because there are only probes with nuclear payloads, there can't be a proximity device, or a remote denoator, or any other kind of remote means of destruction, because they don't exist (even though such technology does exist.)

And even then, this is just my interpretation of staking out the relay to gain info: there are many other methods, and you're hung up on the mines.

[quote]
I've stuck to the narrative given, I've even used references from the game itself. You just go about making assumptions about how often the Collectors may use the Relay, you assume that a stake out might provide useful intel, you assume that even if we managed to scan the Collector Ship briefly you'd get as much data as we got from the actual data mine that happened in the plot (data mining gets you more intel than a brief scan).
[/quote]
What assumptions? I'm saying watch the relay. That's all.

I did not say we'd get as much data.  I'm saying the data mine for the purposes of the plot was useless.

[quote]
Just because you feel your plan is logical doesn't make it logical. It means it's a plan that makes sense to you and I have pointed out several reasons why I feel your plan wouldn't be viable. This clearly means that there is doubt about the plans validity. You have to know that there is no one best way to handle any situation. Any problem involving living beings has many layers and no one plan will work best because there will always be people who disagree with it.
[/quote]
Actually because I think it's illogical does indeed make it illogical.  There is no reason to acquire soldiers to fight a spaceship battle.

I admit, there is no one best way to handle a situation.  But, there are superior solutions to handle a situation.  Like scoping out the relay: an option TIM didn't take. Which makes it a plot hole.

[quote]
Just because you disagree with a situation doesn't mean it's wrong and just because you agree doesn't make it right. It means you have an opinion and we all already know your opinion.
[/quote]
If I can list reasons why it's wrong (soldiers are useless to a spaceship battle), and provide a better solution (stake out the Collectors, hunt them down, attack them in our spaceship), then I would argue my opinion is greater.

[quote]
Long story short, using the dictionary definition of plot the game does have a plot. Plus the major irony is you saying the game has plot holes even though you say there is no plot. Another case alluding to you being a hypocrite who uses double standards.
[/quote]
What is the plot?

I have many reasons why there is no plot.  Either way, this is not the point of this post, nor am I getting into such an argument.