581 réponses à ce sujet

[Sparda Stonerule]

You are giving your opinion of what you think is better. I think the games plan is better. It's a matter of opinion. Do you really need to be elitist and a hypocrite? I know you don't want to get into the argument because you are losing ground but still.



Many people and many sites have outlined the plot. Go read a synopsis of it on Wikipedia or the mass Effect wiki itself. So the game does actually have a plot. A point in my post you conveniently ignore most likely because you can't deny it.



I've provided many reasons throughout my posts why I think your plan is illogical therefore going by your own logic it must be. As a matter of fact anyone on the planet can find any plan illogical, thus making it so going by your mindset.



So by using your mindset against you I can call all of your plans as illogical. Because a stake out would not return as much data as us boarding their vessel and data mining it.



You just ignore points and keep pushing forward even though I've addressed them and pretty soundly used your own point of view against you.



Now I will contend that a hypocrites arguments can not be valid because is creates a gap in logic. So your own logical conclusions in fact have holes in them meaning your arguments can not count. If you argue one thing you can not at the same time argue something that conflicts with it.



Case and point. You say there is no plot. There are plot synopsis's that exist. Or you can play the game over again to watch the plot unfold. But in the same post you say there is no plot you say there are plot holes. This a gap in your logic producing your own little logic hole.

[scotchtape622]

http://social.biowar...ndex/3227664/19



A literary term, a plot is all the events in a story particularly rendered toward the achievement of some particular artistic or emotional effect or general theme.



Events:

Come back to life

Recruit guys

Horizon

Recruit guys/Loyalty missions

Collector Ship

Loyalty missions

Reaper

Loyalty missions

Collector Base



These are the events in the story. Now, at the end, we reach a general theme, or emotional event. I certainly felt an emotion when destroying the Collector base.



In a general school model, a plot has Exposition, a Rising Action, a Climax, a Falling Action, and a Denouement.



Exposition:

Characters and setting is introduced, Shepard is killed, then rebuilt.



Rising Action:

Shepard recruits a team and investigates the Collectors.



Climax:

Shepard infiltrates the Collector base, decides to keep/destroy it, and kills the Baby Reaper.



Falling Action:

Shepard and his team are in the Normandy, Shepard looks at the coffins of the fallen, nods a few times, and looks at the Reaper data.



Denouement:

While not all stories have one, in ME2, the Denouement would be best considered the remaining missions, and the responses of your team from your decision (to destroy/keep the base)

[Sparda Stonerule]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

If you really want to talk about plot holes, John Farrier has found a huge plot hole:
__________________

I think the worst offender here is the History Channel and all their programs on the so-called “World War II”.[...]

Anyway, they spend the whole season building up how the Japanese home islands are a fortress, and the Japanese will never surrender, and there’s no way to take the Japanese home islands because they’re invincible…and then they realize they totally can’t have the Americans take the Japanese home islands so they have no way to wrap up the season.

So they invent a completely implausible superweapon that they’ve never mentioned until now. Apparently the Americans got some scientists together to invent it, only we never heard anything about it because it was “classified”. In two years, the scientists manage to invent a weapon a thousand times more powerful than anything anyone’s ever seen before – drawing from, of course, ancient mystical texts. Then they use the superweapon, blow up several Japanese cities easily, and the Japanese surrender. Convenient, isn’t it?

…and then, in the entire rest of the show, over five or six different big wars, they never use the superweapon again. Seriously. They have this whole thing about a war in Vietnam that lasts decades and kills tens of thousands of people, and they never wonder if maybe they should consider using the frickin’ unstoppable mystical superweapon that they won the last war with. At this point, you’re starting to wonder if any of the show’s writers have even watched the episodes the other writers made.

The Japanese people are a plot hole anyway. So if you use a super weapon on a plot hole what happens? A lot of really funny and improbable things like that super weapon never being used again.

Funny thing is America had a Deus Ex Machina and people get all upset when Science Fiction does it. Deus Ex Machina is actually really common in actual war. Just look at the bloody Abram's Tank when it was first used.

I find it truly funny that people ignore plot holes in real life but not in made up stories. Even though real life history has way more plot holes than any game.

[smudboy]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
You are giving your opinion of what you think is better. I think the games plan is better. It's a matter of opinion. Do you really need to be elitist and a hypocrite? I know you don't want to get into the argument because you are losing ground but still.

Of course it's a matter of opinion.  But I don't see how I'm a hypocrite.

Many people and many sites have outlined the plot. Go read a synopsis of it on Wikipedia or the mass Effect wiki itself. So the game does actually have a plot. A point in my post you conveniently ignore most likely because you can't deny it.

I'm asking for yours, since you have your own opinion on a plot, and I'm directly asking you.

I've provided many reasons throughout my posts why I think your plan is illogical therefore going by your own logic it must be. As a matter of fact anyone on the planet can find any plan illogical, thus making it so going by your mindset.

And I've provided many reasons why observing the relay is a plot hole.

So by using your mindset against you I can call all of your plans as illogical. Because a stake out would not return as much data as us boarding their vessel and data mining it.

Which plans?

What data is relevant to constitute quantity?

You just ignore points and keep pushing forward even though I've addressed them and pretty soundly used your own point of view against you.

Which?

I've got about 3 pages of questions you didn't deal with and just started up again with whatever paragraphs you wanted.

Now I will contend that a hypocrites arguments can not be valid because is creates a gap in logic. So your own logical conclusions in fact have holes in them meaning your arguments can not count. If you argue one thing you can not at the same time argue something that conflicts with it.

Which?

Case and point. You say there is no plot. There are plot synopsis's that exist. Or you can play the game over again to watch the plot unfold. But in the same post you say there is no plot you say there are plot holes. This a gap in your logic producing your own little logic hole.

I also make a "Plot Analysis" series of vids, yet I conclude there is no plot.  Fancy that?

Again, I'm not here to argue plot.  I'm here to argue that not scoping out the relay is an obvious plot hole: focus.

[Soverign 666]

The biggest plot hole ever would be this



Smudboy: Ok I was wrong about something you made a good point

[scotchtape622]

1. I don't see why that is a plot hole, it would be completely idiotic to put your forces in such a vulnerable position. The Collectors have highly advanced sensor tech (they can detect a stealthed Normandy), and they have highly advanced weaponry and armor.

2.
Of course WWII was a plot hole, the Japanese were too busy here.

EDIT: Everyone knows that Einstein went back in time to kill Hitler, so WWII never happened.

Modifié par scotchtape622, 31 juillet 2010 - 01:21 .

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...

1. I don't see why that is a plot hole, it would be completely idiotic to put your forces in such a vulnerable position. The Collectors have highly advanced sensor tech (they can detect a stealthed Normandy), and they have highly advanced weaponry and armor.

In your mind, what would constitute a position to put your forces in to create a non-vulnerable position?

[scotchtape622]

Not in the open, within range of the enemy, pretty simple.

[Sparda Stonerule]

Except in one of your posts you say there is no plot. Besides a plot hole only constitutes a sure fire plan. Is your plan to scope out the Relay a sure fire plan? No. It's simply a plan that might work. When I think of a plot hole I think of Lord of the Rings when they could use the Eagles to fly the Ring to Mordor. Just because there is an alternate plan that may just work doesn't mean there's a hole. There are literally hundreds of ways to possibly handle any given situation. I don't see a need to point out what plans were considered but decided against.



Also Smud I quoted the definition of a plot. That's what I feel a plot is. It's a series of events that tell a story. the game does certainly tell a story given that it has the atributes of a story that scotchtape pointed out.



Also you don't have one main argument you have several, and I try not to quote people often because it makes a complete mess with the resulting text pyramids.



All I'm saying is that I have doubts that your plan will result in useful data. Is that not reasonable? I have no reason to believe that scoping the Relay will actually get me anything useful. Which means your plan is debatable and disagreeable. For me to concede you'd have to prove that there is a 100% full proof plan of getting the games objectives accomplished that was never taken. Then I would agree that there is a plot hole. Plot holes in my mind only exist when there is a plan that has a 100% chance of success that the story doesn't use.

[Soverign 666]

Again, I'm not here to argue plot.  I'm here to argue that not scoping out the relay is an obvious plot hole: focus.

Dosen't obvious mean most people realize its a plot hole? And it seems to me like the majority of the community dosen't think this is a plot hole

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Not in the open, within range of the enemy, pretty simple.

That sounds like an excellent idea.  Thank you.

[scotchtape622]

smudboy wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

Not in the open, within range of the enemy, pretty simple.

That sounds like an excellent idea.  Thank you.

You're welcome?

[smudboy]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

All I'm saying is that I have doubts that your plan will result in useful data. Is that not reasonable? I have no reason to believe that scoping the Relay will actually get me anything useful. Which means your plan is debatable and disagreeable. For me to concede you'd have to prove that there is a 100% full proof plan of getting the games objectives accomplished that was never taken. Then I would agree that there is a plot hole. Plot holes in my mind only exist when there is a plan that has a 100% chance of success that the story doesn't use.

The effects, and details, and supposed outcomes are not the issue.

It's considering or commenting on that option, providing a reason as why not, that makes it a plot hole, not your perceived outcome of it.

[Sparda Stonerule]

scotchtape622 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

Not in the open, within range of the enemy, pretty simple.

That sounds like an excellent idea.  Thank you.

You're welcome?

I think you just won. You said you didn't want your forces out in the open within range of the enemy. BLAST why didn't I think of this days ago.

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

Not in the open, within range of the enemy, pretty simple.

That sounds like an excellent idea.  Thank you.

You're welcome?

Thanks.

Some people like simple, clear ideas.  You and I are of the same mindset.

I can apply this to a number of scenarios of what my potentially come out of scoping out the relay.  The effects, details, tactics, these are all subjective: there are many options and outcomes.  But the issue is that the narrative didn't showcase this option, refer to it, or even mention it. In much the same way I think TIM's "plan" is fruitless, so do others consider scoping out the relay useless.

The point is it wasn't an option.  It is obvious.  It is simple.  Thus it is a plot hole.

[Sparda Stonerule]

smudboy wrote...

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

All I'm saying is that I have doubts that your plan will result in useful data. Is that not reasonable? I have no reason to believe that scoping the Relay will actually get me anything useful. Which means your plan is debatable and disagreeable. For me to concede you'd have to prove that there is a 100% full proof plan of getting the games objectives accomplished that was never taken. Then I would agree that there is a plot hole. Plot holes in my mind only exist when there is a plan that has a 100% chance of success that the story doesn't use.

The effects, and details, and supposed outcomes are not the issue.

It's considering or commenting on that option, providing a reason as why not, that makes it a plot hole, not your perceived outcome of it.

Except that there are hundreds of ways to tackle the problem. Do you really want TIM to sit down and state why every possible plan wouldn't work? We're here to use a plan not go over why others wouldn't work. Just because you came up with one debatable idea doesn't mean that specific plan has to be addressed. I know you'd love it if they did, but the simple matter remains that there are plenty of other options so why on Earth would anyone explain all of them.

I don't explain to people why I took a certain route to get to a destination when I drive my car. You know why? Because it's not important. I got where I needed to go using the route I preferred. Just because you think it's important doesn't mean it is.

[scotchtape622]

I disagree, because that would be holding the game to a much higher standard to a book or movie, which would be extremely unfair, especially considering the massive amount of work (much more than most books (probably just LOTR, if even that) and movies) that the writers have to put into the game, putting in all sorts of options, and trying to make it all work, all within a budget that includes very expensive actors.

[Sparda Stonerule]

smudboy wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

Not in the open, within range of the enemy, pretty simple.

That sounds like an excellent idea.  Thank you.

You're welcome?

Thanks.

Some people like simple, clear ideas.  You and I are of the same mindset.

I can apply this to a number of scenarios of what my potentially come out of scoping out the relay.  The effects, details, tactics, these are all subjective: there are many options and outcomes.  But the issue is that the narrative didn't showcase this option, refer to it, or even mention it. In much the same way I think TIM's "plan" is fruitless, so do others consider scoping out the relay useless.

The point is it wasn't an option.  It is obvious.  It is simple.  Thus it is a plot hole.

Except his plan ended up with the destruction (or preservation) of the Collector base and all of the Collectors. It also allowed us to get data on the Reapers. Making it not fruitless.

[smudboy]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
Except that there are hundreds of ways to tackle the problem. Do you really want TIM to sit down and state why every possible plan wouldn't work? We're here to use a plan not go over why others wouldn't work. Just because you came up with one debatable idea doesn't mean that specific plan has to be addressed. I know you'd love it if they did, but the simple matter remains that there are plenty of other options so why on Earth would anyone explain all of them.

I don't explain to people why I took a certain route to get to a destination when I drive my car. You know why? Because it's not important. I got where I needed to go using the route I preferred. Just because you think it's important doesn't mean it is.

The issue is not how many hypothetical ways to tackle the problem: it's that there was one clear, obvious solution that wasn't acknowledged.

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...

I disagree, because that would be holding the game to a much higher standard to a book or movie, which would be extremely unfair, especially considering the massive amount of work (much more than most books (probably just LOTR, if even that) and movies) that the writers have to put into the game, putting in all sorts of options, and trying to make it all work, all within a budget that includes very expensive actors.

If that was the case, they wouldn't have used a frame story.

But this it not about some higher standard.  This is basic storytelling.  And we know the storytelling in ME2 is so goddawful, it's not hard to count another plot hole just around the corner.

[Sparda Stonerule]

Except that solution isn't full proof. If your given solution was absolutely assured to permanently stop the Collectors then I would agree with you. It just comes down to the fact that unless there is a sure fire way to end something right away then there is no need to tackle every hypothetical out there.

[smudboy]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

Except that solution isn't full proof. If your given solution was absolutely assured to permanently stop the Collectors then I would agree with you. It just comes down to the fact that unless there is a sure fire way to end something right away then there is no need to tackle every hypothetical out there.

It doesn't have to be fool proof.  It merely has to be acknowledged.

[Soverign 666]

smudboy wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

I disagree, because that would be holding the game to a much higher standard to a book or movie, which would be extremely unfair, especially considering the massive amount of work (much more than most books (probably just LOTR, if even that) and movies) that the writers have to put into the game, putting in all sorts of options, and trying to make it all work, all within a budget that includes very expensive actors.

If that was the case, they wouldn't have used a frame story.

But this it not about some higher standard.  This is basic storytelling.  And we know the storytelling in ME2 is so goddawful, it's not hard to count another plot hole just around the corner.

Yea we all know how terrible the storytelling of the critically accalimed GOTY contender ME2 was. The fact that you have to spend this much time to try and come up with plot holes that are quite easily explained away is a sign of how good the writing is

[smudboy]

Soverign 666 wrote...
Yea we all know how terrible the storytelling of the critically accalimed GOTY contender ME2 was. The fact that you have to spend this much time to try and come up with plot holes that are quite easily explained away is a sign of how good the writing is

Yet the narrative cannot show or tell us why they didn't check out the relay = plot hole.

[Sparda Stonerule]

Smud it's quite obvious you see a plot hole as any question as to why someone didn't do something in any narrative. This means if I use your definition of a plot hole I can find a plot hole in any story ever made. So given your definition of a plot hole then yes there are plenty in every Bioware game. Given my definition then this is not a plot hole. It's perspective plain and simple, something you want to ignore. Why won't you just admit that people have different opinions.