581 réponses à ce sujet

[smudboy]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

Smud it's quite obvious you see a plot hole as any question as to why someone didn't do something in any narrative. This means if I use your definition of a plot hole I can find a plot hole in any story ever made. So given your definition of a plot hole then yes there are plenty in every Bioware game. Given my definition then this is not a plot hole. It's perspective plain and simple, something you want to ignore. Why won't you just admit that people have different opinions.

No I'm going by the definition of a plot hole, and the obvious connection between ideas the narrative provided.

I do admit people have different opinions.  That's irrelevant.

The narrative makes the characters and the audience aware of the relationship between the Omega-4 Relay and the Collectors.

The characters do not acknolwedge this obvious connection, nor take any steps in observing the relay, looking out for their mysterious opponents, coming or going, even though that's all it would take.  A simple lead provided by the narrative.

A plot hole.

[Throw_this_away]

So guys, so how about those space mines...

[scotchtape622]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_hole



A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.



Does the lack of suggesting the observation of the O4 relay go against flow of logic established by the story's plot? No it doesn't, we have no information about any methods of doing so without leaving your ship in the ocean. We also don't even know if the Collectors are regularly using the O4 relay, or if they gathered all the human colonists (there is certainly enough room) and then took them back to the home base.



Does the lack of suggesting the observation of the O4 relay constitute a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot? No, it is not blatant, and the majority of players would never even think of it. We also do not know if it is relevant, because we do not know enough information about future intelligence gathering systems.

[Throw_this_away]

Fact: smudboy is a pothole. He can't see obvious connections.

[Whatever42]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

Smud it's quite obvious you see a plot hole as any question as to why someone didn't do something in any narrative. This means if I use your definition of a plot hole I can find a plot hole in any story ever made. So given your definition of a plot hole then yes there are plenty in every Bioware game. Given my definition then this is not a plot hole. It's perspective plain and simple, something you want to ignore. Why won't you just admit that people have different opinions.

Because Smud is here to show how clever he is, not actually engage in real debate. I'm generally ok with that, I like showing off how clever I can be too, but he's just so unrelenting at it. Even after you pin him down and completely debunk everything he says, he just starts up again like nothing happened. Frankly, its a little spooky. I'm not sure he's human. I think we might be up against a computer program.

[Il Divo]

smudboy wrote...

I can apply this to a number of scenarios of what my potentially come out of scoping out the relay.  The effects, details, tactics, these are all subjective: there are many options and outcomes.  But the issue is that the narrative didn't showcase this option, refer to it, or even mention it. In much the same way I think TIM's "plan" is fruitless, so do others consider scoping out the relay useless.

The point is it wasn't an option.  It is obvious.  It is simple.  Thus it is a plot hole.

So wait, this is a plot-hole? We're saying this is a plot-hole because Illusive Man refused to 'mine' the Omega IV relay? And yet the Council choosing to send Shepard after "random geth leads" which coincedentally led us to Ilos instead of enlisting the Shadowbroker for aid against Saren, following Tali's geth lead, or sending an elite team of Spectres to track Saren down? I'd say all these examples are far more problematic than Illusive Man's refusal to mine a relay. 

[smudboy]

Il Divo wrote...
So wait, this is a plot-hole? We're saying this is a plot-hole because Illusive Man refused to 'mine' the Omega IV relay? And yet the Council choosing to send Shepard after "random geth leads" which coincedentally led us to Ilos instead of enlisting the Shadowbroker for aid against Saren, following Tali's geth lead, or sending an elite team of Spectres to track Saren down? I'd say all these examples are far more problematic than Illusive Man's refusal to mine a relay. 

Not whether TIM actually did scope out the relay, but that he acknolwedges it as an option.

[Soverign 666]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

Smud it's quite obvious you see a plot hole as any question as to why someone didn't do something in any narrative. This means if I use your definition of a plot hole I can find a plot hole in any story ever made. So given your definition of a plot hole then yes there are plenty in every Bioware game. Given my definition then this is not a plot hole. It's perspective plain and simple, something you want to ignore. Why won't you just admit that people have different opinions.

Because Smud is here to show how clever he is, not actually engage in real debate. I'm generally ok with that, I like showing off how clever I can be too, but he's just so unrelenting at it. Even after you pin him down and completely debunk everything he says, he just starts up again like nothing happened. Frankly, its a little spooky. I'm not sure he's human. I think we might be up against a computer program.

I really wonder what  its like when smudboy plays mass effect2 to be constantly analyzing the plot looking for tiny flaws instead of actually enjoying a spectatcular game.

[smudboy]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Because Smud is here to show how clever he is, not actually engage in real debate. I'm generally ok with that, I like showing off how clever I can be too, but he's just so unrelenting at it. Even after you pin him down and completely debunk everything he says, he just starts up again like nothing happened. Frankly, its a little spooky. I'm not sure he's human. I think we might be up against a computer program.

Here's your chance:

Show me in the narrative where TIM, Shepard, etc. acknowledge scoping out the relay.

[Soverign 666]

smudboy wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Because Smud is here to show how clever he is, not actually engage in real debate. I'm generally ok with that, I like showing off how clever I can be too, but he's just so unrelenting at it. Even after you pin him down and completely debunk everything he says, he just starts up again like nothing happened. Frankly, its a little spooky. I'm not sure he's human. I think we might be up against a computer program.

Here's your chance:

Show me in the narrative where TIM, Shepard, etc. acknowledge scoping out the relay.

They don't and guess what no one but you cares

[Sparda Stonerule]

Throw_this_away wrote...

So guys, so how about those space mines...

I always love things that don't exist. But the Space Mines aren't quite as good as non existent plots that apparently have holes in them. It's like having holes in our air. It's quite fun. try punching holes in the air. I dare you to find a better use of your time.

[smudboy]

Soverign 666 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Because Smud is here to show how clever he is, not actually engage in real debate. I'm generally ok with that, I like showing off how clever I can be too, but he's just so unrelenting at it. Even after you pin him down and completely debunk everything he says, he just starts up again like nothing happened. Frankly, its a little spooky. I'm not sure he's human. I think we might be up against a computer program.

Here's your chance:

Show me in the narrative where TIM, Shepard, etc. acknowledge scoping out the relay.

They don't and guess what no one but you cares

If they don't, then it's a plot hole.

[Throw_this_away]

This thread is the finest example of relentless obsession and intellectual masturbation around.



It is like a two legged dog chasing it's tail.



But please carry on with the show. I want this thread to rival the tali abomination.

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

Throw_this_away wrote...

This thread is the finest example of relentless obsession and intellectual masturbation around.

It is like a two legged dog chasing it's tail.

But please carry on with the show. I want this thread to rival the tali abomination.

Hear, Hear!

[Sparda Stonerule]

One last time. It is only a plot hole if it's a plan that is better than the one you are using. Do you know monitoring the Relay is better than TIM's plan? No. Do you know how many times the Collectors use the Relay? No. What if they never use it while scoping it out? What if, while you are scoping it out the Collectors abduct every Human colony including Earth? Mission failed.



I just put three holes in your plan. If this was the plot you made then it has holes. Plain and simple.

[Soverign 666]

smudboy wrote...

Soverign 666 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Because Smud is here to show how clever he is, not actually engage in real debate. I'm generally ok with that, I like showing off how clever I can be too, but he's just so unrelenting at it. Even after you pin him down and completely debunk everything he says, he just starts up again like nothing happened. Frankly, its a little spooky. I'm not sure he's human. I think we might be up against a computer program.

Here's your chance:

Show me in the narrative where TIM, Shepard, etc. acknowledge scoping out the relay.

They don't and guess what no one but you cares

If they don't, then it's a plot hole.

Great you think that i'm really done arguing with you. You don't seem to have the ability to admit that you might possibly be wrong. The defention of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting diffrent results. Using logic dosent work so i'm done. You can hate ME2 while the rest of us enjoy what is one of the best videogames ever made.

[smudboy]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

One last time. It is only a plot hole if it's a plan that is better than the one you are using. Do you know monitoring the Relay is better than TIM's plan? No. Do you know how many times the Collectors use the Relay? No. What if they never use it while scoping it out? What if, while you are scoping it out the Collectors abduct every Human colony including Earth? Mission failed.

I just put three holes in your plan. If this was the plot you made then it has holes. Plain and simple.

"Characters ignoring or avoiding obvious solutions to their problems, provided those solutions are obvious to the characters, and not just the viewers."

In no way does the solution have to be better.  It merely has to be obvious.

[Throw_this_away]

Who here would do Miranda in the plot hole?



Don't tell me you didn't think it. It would be a ploy hole not to

[smudboy]

Soverign 666 wrote...
Great you think that i'm really done arguing with you. You don't seem to have the ability to admit that you might possibly be wrong. The defention of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting diffrent results. Using logic dosent work so i'm done. You can hate ME2 while the rest of us enjoy what is one of the best videogames ever made.

I don't care either way what you think I think.

I think ME2 is a lot of fun.

[Sparda Stonerule]

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

Throw_this_away wrote...

This thread is the finest example of relentless obsession and intellectual masturbation around.

It is like a two legged dog chasing it's tail.

But please carry on with the show. I want this thread to rival the tali abomination.

Hear, Hear!

Arguing with no ground gained for thousands of pages? I'm just here because I'm waiting for some new DLC because I actually like playing games an enjoy them. I set out to enjoy my experience with games as much as possible and I like pointing out hypocrites.

Anyone who thinks Smud is a hypocrite please say so. Then when when Smud denies our consensus without explaining how he isn't given that I have proved twice that he is. We can officially label Smud the end all be all Plot Hole of the Universe. Wouldn't that be a fun day?

[Soverign 666]

smudboy wrote...

Soverign 666 wrote...
Great you think that i'm really done arguing with you. You don't seem to have the ability to admit that you might possibly be wrong. The defention of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting diffrent results. Using logic dosent work so i'm done. You can hate ME2 while the rest of us enjoy what is one of the best videogames ever made.

I don't care either way what you think I think.

I think ME2 is a lot of fun.

Then that means its a good game as the point of a game is to be fun so therefore it isnt (as you said in your video analysis) one fo the worst sequals ever made_

[Whatever42]

smudboy wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Because Smud is here to show how clever he is, not actually engage in real debate. I'm generally ok with that, I like showing off how clever I can be too, but he's just so unrelenting at it. Even after you pin him down and completely debunk everything he says, he just starts up again like nothing happened. Frankly, its a little spooky. I'm not sure he's human. I think we might be up against a computer program.

Here's your chance:

Show me in the narrative where TIM, Shepard, etc. acknowledge scoping out the relay.

Show me in the narrative where TIM acknowledges the possibility of using nuclear weaponry on Horizon to destroy the Collector ship. He lured them in - he could have easily used weapons of mass destruction there instead of sending in Shepard.

He could have also thrown the Relay into sun. Or unleashed an asari plague on the Citadel with a trail leading back to the Collectors, to draw them into the fight. Or attempted to capture a Collector alive to develop a biological weapon against Collectors. Or thrown a toga party. I mean, throwing a toga party is so obvious. Him not doing it is clearly a plot hole.

Frankly, there is not an event or story full of plot holes bases on your weak interpretation of the definition.

Further, even if I make a good point, you will ignore it and attack some side issue. And if you have nothing to attack, you will insult me, trying to draw me out into saying something you can attack.

You're a troll. Debating you is pointless.  Repeatedly pointing out that you're a troll, who will never give up a point, but simply ignore it and attack something else, is mildly amusing so I will likely continue it for a little while, until bored. I'm not as dedicated as you are, though, so never fear, you will outlast me.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 31 juillet 2010 - 02:14 .

[Sparda Stonerule]

smudboy wrote...

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

One last time. It is only a plot hole if it's a plan that is better than the one you are using. Do you know monitoring the Relay is better than TIM's plan? No. Do you know how many times the Collectors use the Relay? No. What if they never use it while scoping it out? What if, while you are scoping it out the Collectors abduct every Human colony including Earth? Mission failed.

I just put three holes in your plan. If this was the plot you made then it has holes. Plain and simple.

"Characters ignoring or avoiding obvious solutions to their problems, provided those solutions are obvious to the characters, and not just the viewers."

In no way does the solution have to be better.  It merely has to be obvious.

Hold up there cowboy. If the solution you made up is never addressed then wouldn't it be fair to say it wasn't obvious TO THEM? Therefore most definitely not a plot hole based on what you just said. Thanks Smud, you just said that even if it's obvious to you as long as it isn't obvious to them it is not a plot hole. Good game guys.

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

There's nothing to be gained from sitting at the relay, how many times must this be stated?

[smudboy]

Soverign 666 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Soverign 666 wrote...
Great you think that i'm really done arguing with you. You don't seem to have the ability to admit that you might possibly be wrong. The defention of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting diffrent results. Using logic dosent work so i'm done. You can hate ME2 while the rest of us enjoy what is one of the best videogames ever made.

I don't care either way what you think I think.

I think ME2 is a lot of fun.

Then that means its a good game as the point of a game is to be fun so therefore it isnt (as you said in your video analysis) one fo the worst sequals ever made_

Could you quote me please?  Thanks.