581 réponses à ce sujet

[smudboy]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

So you can't show me anywhere in the narrative TIM or other characters acknowledge scoping out the relay, or propose an issue, problem or comment why they can't?

[Sparda Stonerule]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

One last time. It is only a plot hole if it's a plan that is better than the one you are using. Do you know monitoring the Relay is better than TIM's plan? No. Do you know how many times the Collectors use the Relay? No. What if they never use it while scoping it out? What if, while you are scoping it out the Collectors abduct every Human colony including Earth? Mission failed.

I just put three holes in your plan. If this was the plot you made then it has holes. Plain and simple.

"Characters ignoring or avoiding obvious solutions to their problems, provided those solutions are obvious to the characters, and not just the viewers."

In no way does the solution have to be better.  It merely has to be obvious.

Hold up there cowboy. If the solution you made up is never addressed then wouldn't it be fair to say it wasn't obvious TO THEM? Therefore most definitely not a plot hole based on what you just said. Thanks Smud, you just said that even if it's obvious to you as long as it isn't obvious to them it is not a plot hole. Good game guys.

Just figured I'd state it again, you know for posterity. Also he did quote you, unless you missed the part where your name was in the quote box. 

[smudboy]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
Hold up there cowboy. If the solution you made up is never addressed then wouldn't it be fair to say it wasn't obvious TO THEM? Therefore most definitely not a plot hole based on what you just said. Thanks Smud, you just said that even if it's obvious to you as long as it isn't obvious to them it is not a plot hole. Good game guys.

They're aware of the relationship bewteen the Collectors and the relay.

[illerianna]

Meh. I believe the game's plan worked perfectly. The sitting-and-farming the O4R (Omega 4 Relay) isn't the best idea. Why? Well, for one thing, we don't know if there are other relays that link to the galactic core/Collector base. We could very well be sitting outside the O4R with our mines and sleepy guards, while the Collectors use the other relay to swoop around the galaxy. Obviously, since the Collectors are in with the Reapers, they probably know quite a bit more of the Relay map than we do. They could hop through enough relays to where tracking their path would be quite the pain in the butt.

I believe my point will be better illustrated if I use bad Microsoft Paint drawings. (Disclaimer: I use my left hand for computer stuff and my right for writing, so the text may be hard to read. But you should get the general idea. :innocent:)

This spiral thingy is the galaxy. The yellow star in the middle is the galactic core, AKA the only known location of a Collector base.



Now we have the same map, but with the O4R marked. Yes, I probably got the location wrong, but that's not the point.



Now, notice how the O4R leads to the core of the galaxy, as our friend Mr. Arrow shows us. But wait, look again! More arrows leading out of the core! Because, really, what super-intelligent squid-robot species doesn't have a backup route?



Now, you may say 'Spawn camp the other relays too!' Well, we don't know where they are. Well, let's find them! We have two ways of finding them.

1) PEW PEW around the galaxy until we find another suspicious looking relay, or try and follow the Collectors who at this point, I would wager, be in the know of your shenanigans, and thus try to cover their trail, which the Reapers (their cohorts) are very good at. Shown by this map, that would take a long time, countless fuel monies, soldiers and ships for the inevitable angry non-Council races who don't like being disturbed, and other space-faring needs (food, repairs, medicine).



OR 2) Take a shortcut through the O4R, which we know the location of.



Well lookie, we're in the Collector base! Well, when in Rome, BLOW CRAP UP.



And thus we end in the same place the game does, AKA bombing the crap out of them.

So, that's my take on this whole deal. I hope my pictures were entertaining. I could be proven wrong, sure, but this is the conclusion I've come to after nomming cheerios.

EDIT: Used 'into' instead of 'out of'. Oopsies.

Modifié par illerianna, 31 juillet 2010 - 02:26 .

[Throw_this_away]

Here is how we all ****** off smudboy. From this point on, we ignore him. Or worse, we don't give serious answers to his crying

[Sparda Stonerule]

Sure, but their obvious conclusion is that they need to travel through it to stop the Collectors. Your obvious conclusion is to stake it out and most likely learn nothing. To the characters and based on what you just said yourself they felt the obvious conclusion is that they need go through the Relay in order to stop the Collectors. Again good game but you talked yourself into a hole.

[Whatever42]

smudboy wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

So you can't show me anywhere in the narrative TIM or other characters acknowledge scoping out the relay, or propose an issue, problem or comment why they can't?

I can't show you anywhere in the narrative TIM or any other characters discussing the need for an umbrella in case it rains on Illium either.

Yes, I know, you will just keep repeating yourself until I stop responding to you.

[smudboy]

illerianna wrote...

Meh. I believe the game's plan worked perfectly. The sitting-and-farming the O4R (Omega 4 Relay) isn't the best idea.

It doesn't have to be the best.  The narrative, specifically the characters, merely have to acknowledge it, or give reasons why they don't attempt it ("Our scans bring up nothing", "we don't have the resources Shepard", "it's too dangerous, there are better thigns to do", etc.)

[Whatever42]

Throw_this_away wrote...

Here is how we all ****** off smudboy. From this point on, we ignore him. Or worse, we don't give serious answers to his crying

Actually, I think luring other people into discussions with him and then laughing while they drown in the quicksand would be more entertaining. I don't dislike Smud. He really is very excellent at what he does. As I said, I just find his single minded dedication to trolling amazing. Its not like he even has a broad range of topics, as least that I've seen. It's just relentlessly trolling about the plot and plot holes.

But you're right. He can be draining. I need to get out of this thread again.

[smudboy]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

Sure, but their obvious conclusion is that they need to travel through it to stop the Collectors. Your obvious conclusion is to stake it out and most likely learn nothing. To the characters and based on what you just said yourself they felt the obvious conclusion is that they need go through the Relay in order to stop the Collectors. Again good game but you talked yourself into a hole.

They merely have to stake it out for intel, or acknowledge that is an option, then provide a reason why not to.

[scotchtape622]

No. You are wrong. There are way too many possibilities for your logic to work.

[Throw_this_away]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Throw_this_away wrote...

Here is how we all ****** off smudboy. From this point on, we ignore him. Or worse, we don't give serious answers to his crying

Actually, I think luring other people into discussions with him and then laughing while they drown in the quicksand would be more entertaining. I don't dislike Smud. He really is very excellent at what he does. As I said, I just find his single minded dedication to trolling amazing. Its not like he even has a broad range of topics, as least that I've seen. It's just relentlessly trolling about the plot and plot holes.

But you're right. He can be draining. I need to get out of this thread again.

[Sparda Stonerule]

smudboy wrote...

illerianna wrote...

Meh. I believe the game's plan worked perfectly. The sitting-and-farming the O4R (Omega 4 Relay) isn't the best idea.

It doesn't have to be the best.  The narrative, specifically the characters, merely have to acknowledge it, or give reasons why they don't attempt it ("Our scans bring up nothing", "we don't have the resources Shepard", "it's too dangerous, there are better thigns to do", etc.)

Except, and I swear I will bring this up over and over, you yourself said that the plan must be obvious to the characters. We know what TIM and Shepard's first reaction was. Well we need to use the Relay to wipe the Collectors out. That was what was obvious to them, not your plan. Your plan is only obvious to you. As far as I know you are not an in game character, thank god for that.

[smudboy]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
Except, and I swear I will bring this up over and over, you yourself said that the plan must be obvious to the characters. We know what TIM and Shepard's first reaction was. Well we need to use the Relay to wipe the Collectors out. That was what was obvious to them, not your plan. Your plan is only obvious to you. As far as I know you are not an in game character, thank god for that.

If they understand the relationship between the Collectors and a location, which they do, and TIM's hunting down leads to Stop the Enemy...then the simplest solution would be to go to that location.  Scope it, check it, mine it, whatever.  They don't actually have to do that activity: they simply need to acknolwedge that, and make an excuse not to conduct said activity (whatever exactly that amounts to.)

But they don't.

[illerianna]

smudboy wrote...

illerianna wrote...

Meh. I believe the game's plan worked perfectly. The sitting-and-farming the O4R (Omega 4 Relay) isn't the best idea.

It doesn't have to be the best.  The narrative, specifically the characters, merely have to acknowledge it, or give reasons why they don't attempt it ("Our scans bring up nothing", "we don't have the resources Shepard", "it's too dangerous, there are better thigns to do", etc.)

I think they trust you enough to come to a conclusion as to why it's not possible. It's rather obvious why it's a bad idea. Sure, there are other obvious things pointed out, why not this? Well, they are on a budget. The only people this kind of thing bothers are the ones who make snarky comments at the screen as they dissect every word every character says, and why waste production time on lip-synching and getting the VAs to do something so silly? No, it probably doesn't make a significant difference in the time spent on the game, but it's still time, and time better spent elsewhere than covering every possible outcome of the plot for the nitpickers.

Shepard could challenge them to an epic banjo battle for the fate of the universe, but that doesn't mean they should waste time even discussing something so pointless.

[Throw_this_away]

Whatever... I think you give him far too much credit. Any idiot can think he is correct. The part that requires brains is knowing when you are wrong.

[Whatever42]

Throw_this_away wrote...

Whatever... I think you give him far too much credit. Any idiot can think he is correct. The part that requires brains is knowing when you are wrong.

That's possible, with a little obsessive compulsive thrown in. He displays so many classic trolling techniques, though. Its almost right out of the handbook. I guess it really doesn't matter. The result is the same.

[smudboy]

illerianna wrote...

smudboy wrote...

illerianna wrote...

Meh. I believe the game's plan worked perfectly. The sitting-and-farming the O4R (Omega 4 Relay) isn't the best idea.

It doesn't have to be the best.  The narrative, specifically the characters, merely have to acknowledge it, or give reasons why they don't attempt it ("Our scans bring up nothing", "we don't have the resources Shepard", "it's too dangerous, there are better thigns to do", etc.)

I think they trust you enough to come to a conclusion as to why it's not possible. It's rather obvious why it's a bad idea. Sure, there are other obvious things pointed out, why not this? Well, they are on a budget. The only people this kind of thing bothers are the ones who make snarky comments at the screen as they dissect every word every character says, and why waste production time on lip-synching and getting the VAs to do something so silly? No, it probably doesn't make a significant difference in the time spent on the game, but it's still time, and time better spent elsewhere than covering every possible outcome of the plot for the nitpickers.

Shepard could challenge them to an epic banjo battle for the fate of the universe, but that doesn't mean they should waste time even discussing something so pointless.

All they need is one or two lines by one of the characters (TIM, Shepard, EDI, etc.) to give us a reason why it's not taken.

Considering this is a quest story, and we learn next to nothing about our enemy we need to stop, getting leads is the number one means of problem solving.

If you learned your enemy was the only one who used a door, and you have no idea where your enemy is because they leave no trace of themselves, would you not think "hey wtf is up with that door?"  Now if you don't, then fine, we've nothing to argue.

[Sparda Stonerule]

Throw_this_away wrote...

Whatever... I think you give him far too much credit. Any idiot can think he is correct. The part that requires brains is knowing when you are wrong.

It's true. the measure of an idiot is how far out of his way he will step to try and make everyone think he is correct. I used to think Smud was pretty smart. But even after digging his own hole twice (geddit) he still forges on as if his arguments being dismantled were trivial.

Now to address Smud directly. If I were in the situation and I new the Collectors used the Relay but were actively out there abducting colonies I would go look for them myself. However TIM is tracking down leads and I view him as more capable of following data then me. So what would I do? I would begin building a capable team to help me fight them. I would also upgrade my ship for an almost certain space fight. 

This plan that I would personally use is obvious to me, but I am not a character. Your solution is obvious to you. Just because they know of the connection doesn't mean their obvious assessment is to sit there and watch it. Their first logical conclusion is to find a way through the Relay safely in order to fight them.

Again their own solution was the only obvious one to them. therefore based on what you yourself said it is no plot hole.

[Soverign 666]

Ok smudboy I was wrong you didnt say mass effect2 was one of the worst games ever made you said it had one of the worst plots. Sorry i remebered incorrectly.

[Il Divo]

smudboy wrote...

Not whether TIM actually did scope out the relay, but that he acknolwedges it as an option.

I don't recall the Council acknowledging that they could

a) use the Shadowbroker for information on Saren/Matriarch Benezia
follow Tali's lead and head to the Geth location where she found the Saren recording
c) check Fist's records/hit up the underworld for information on how he got in touch with Saren
d) send a group of more experienced Spectres who actually understand how Saren operates.

None of these 4 were addressed in Mass Effect. Instead we followed 3 entirely random leads where 'Geth' were situated which magically got us all the information we needed to find Ilos. Does Mass Effect now have 4 more plot holes?

Modifié par Il Divo, 31 juillet 2010 - 02:53 .

[illerianna]

smudboy wrote...

illerianna wrote...

smudboy wrote...

illerianna wrote...

Meh. I believe the game's plan worked perfectly. The sitting-and-farming the O4R (Omega 4 Relay) isn't the best idea.

It doesn't have to be the best.  The narrative, specifically the characters, merely have to acknowledge it, or give reasons why they don't attempt it ("Our scans bring up nothing", "we don't have the resources Shepard", "it's too dangerous, there are better thigns to do", etc.)

I think they trust you enough to come to a conclusion as to why it's not possible. It's rather obvious why it's a bad idea. Sure, there are other obvious things pointed out, why not this? Well, they are on a budget. The only people this kind of thing bothers are the ones who make snarky comments at the screen as they dissect every word every character says, and why waste production time on lip-synching and getting the VAs to do something so silly? No, it probably doesn't make a significant difference in the time spent on the game, but it's still time, and time better spent elsewhere than covering every possible outcome of the plot for the nitpickers.

Shepard could challenge them to an epic banjo battle for the fate of the universe, but that doesn't mean they should waste time even discussing something so pointless.

All they need is one or two lines by one of the characters (TIM, Shepard, EDI, etc.) to give us a reason why it's not taken.

Considering this is a quest story, and we learn next to nothing about our enemy we need to stop, getting leads is the number one means of problem solving.

If you learned your enemy was the only one who used a door, and you have no idea where your enemy is because they leave no trace of themselves, would you not think "hey wtf is up with that door?"  Now if you don't, then fine, we've nothing to argue.

And those one or two lines could take the production time better spent on, say, making my fem!Shep not walk like a space-walking wrestler with a stick up her butt.

The original purpose of your post was to ask why we didn't spawn camp O4R. You also said gathering leads was a purpose of the game. Well, I don't see how sitting in front of the relay is gathering leads... At all. Nor is someone saying 'No, Shepard, we can't do that'. It provides nothing to the plot at all, unless you like to troll forums. It might satisfy someone who needs everything spelled out for them, but otherwise it's pretty useless.

Meh. I'm entertained enough now, back to KotOR.

[Il Divo]

illerianna wrote...
Meh. I'm entertained enough now, back to KotOR.

This. This times a bajillion.

[smudboy]

illerianna wrote...
And those one or two lines could take the production time better spent on, say, making my fem!Shep not walk like a space-walking wrestler with a stick up her butt.

Unfortunately, for the purposes of this discussion, your precedence on animation is irrelevant.

The original purpose of your post was to ask why we didn't spawn camp O4R. You also said gathering leads was a purpose of the game. Well, I don't see how sitting in front of the relay is gathering leads... At all. Nor is someone saying 'No, Shepard, we can't do that'. It provides nothing to the plot at all, unless you like to troll forums. It might satisfy someone who needs everything spelled out for them, but otherwise it's pretty useless.

The Omega-4 relay is a simple lead that must be addressed.

[illerianna]

smudboy wrote...

illerianna wrote...
And those one or two lines could take the production time better spent on, say, making my fem!Shep not walk like a space-walking wrestler with a stick up her butt.

Unfortunately, for the purposes of this discussion, your precedence on animation is irrelevant.

The original purpose of your post was to ask why we didn't spawn camp O4R. You also said gathering leads was a purpose of the game. Well, I don't see how sitting in front of the relay is gathering leads... At all. Nor is someone saying 'No, Shepard, we can't do that'. It provides nothing to the plot at all, unless you like to troll forums. It might satisfy someone who needs everything spelled out for them, but otherwise it's pretty useless.

The Omega-4 relay is a simple lead that must be addressed.

Carth is whining again, so I'm back to soothe the noise of his whining by responding to forum trolls in a pointless manner.

1) It was a statement. If that's the only argument you can come up with.. ./facepalm.
2) No, it doesn't need to be addressed. At all. Ever. Only for you (and the minority, who I'm willing to wager is small, who care about these things), and they don't market the game specifically for you. Many people enjoy it as it is, for what it is (good fun). Minor plot details you nitpick over because you've nothing better to do aren't of vital importance at all. (And yes, I'm well aware that by being in this thread, I'm implying that I have nothing better to do.)

Okay, maybe Carth's whining isn't so bad.