581 réponses à ce sujet

[pvt_java]

Nightwriter wrote...

You cannot destroy a mass relay with conventional weapons.

And the Omega 4 Relay looks bigger and badder than other relays too. And it's red. It looks like Sauron if Sauron were turned into a relay.

Actually I think that's just Rule of Cool.

[trobbins777]

atheelogos wrote...

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

Are mass relays destructible? Didn't the Mu Relay managed to survive a supernova?

I know right! Hey OP I don't think relays can be destroyed, or at least not by any weapon we have.

I thought the Mu relay was just moved by a super nova. Like a ship might move inland when the tide comes in.
And even if they can't destroy it couldn't they at least disable it by setting off an emp near it or something?

[pvt_java]

trobbins777 wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

Are mass relays destructible? Didn't the Mu Relay managed to survive a supernova?

I know right! Hey OP I don't think relays can be destroyed, or at least not by any weapon we have.

I thought the Mu relay was just moved by a super nova. Like a ship might move inland when the tide comes in.
And even if they can't destroy it couldn't they at least disable it by setting off an emp near it or something?

That's it, it was moved.

[InvaderErl]

trobbins777 wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

Are mass relays destructible? Didn't the Mu Relay managed to survive a supernova?

I know right! Hey OP I don't think relays can be destroyed, or at least not by any weapon we have.

I thought the Mu relay was just moved by a super nova. Like a ship might move inland when the tide comes in.
And even if they can't destroy it couldn't they at least disable it by setting off an emp near it or something?

If I'm not mistaken an EMP will not destroy tech that's been sufficiently insulated. My guess is the Reaper had a man in and got all of that stuff insulated.

[jackkel dragon]

Just to clear up why mercs/slavers would care about their collector friends... [spoilers ahead]

Isolationist to the extreme, the Collectors were rarely seen anywhere but Omega and a few of the nearby inhabited worlds. Even then, decades could pass with no reported sightings at the station, only to give way to a few years marked by several dozen sporadic visits from envoys looking to barter and trade with other species.

Emphasis added. Written by Drew Karpyshyn in Mass Effect: Ascension.

The years leading up to ME1 began the sporadic visits for this timeframe, as indicated by the activites of the Shadow Broker in Redemption. In Ascension, one of the major characters betrays his own people because of the Collector's promise of reward.

This means that mercs aren't going to be happy with Cerberus deploying a minefield on the Omega-4 relay. Also, should Cerberus be detected doing so, a war might break out between the mercs and Cerberus. After seeing the scientists in "Lazarus Cell Station" get massacred by their own mechs, even Shepard couldn't defeat a few dozen major merc bands on their own. Then there's Aria, who could cause hell for Cerberus in Omega space.

Surveilance isn't much better, with very similar consequences. Only the Normandy is truely equipped for stealth recon, and Aria can somehow render that obsolete. Cerberus = detected, Cerberus = dead.

I hope whoever came up with the wall idea was joking. How would you build that? What if a ship came through before it was finished (and it would take several months/years to finish, a relay is the size of several dreadnaughts combined.)

Edit: What merc groups do you ask? Well, the Blue Suns had a collection tryst in the comic "Incursion" (or whatever it was called.) Those blokes also work for the Shadow Broker in Redemtion (or pretend to, haven't finished yet.) A group that splintered from another did some collecting in Ascenion (no real name, just in it for the creds.) I'm sure there's at least one batarian slaver that's heard of the Collectors. They are far more than imaginary. You just wish they were imaginary. (They spooky.)

Modifié par jackkel dragon, 25 juillet 2010 - 04:43 .

[smudboy]

jackkel dragon wrote...

Just to clear up why mercs/slavers would care about their collector friends... [spoilers ahead]

Isolationist to the extreme, the Collectors were rarely seen anywhere but Omega and a few of the nearby inhabited worlds. Even then, decades could pass with no reported sightings at the station, only to give way to a few years marked by several dozen sporadic visits from envoys looking to barter and trade with other species.

Emphasis added. Written by Drew Karpyshyn in Mass Effect: Ascension.

The years leading up to ME1 began the sporadic visits for this timeframe, as indicated by the activites of the Shadow Broker in Redemption. In Ascension, one of the major characters betrays his own people because of the Collector's promise of reward.

1. "rarely seen anywhere but Omega...decades could pass with no reported sightings."
2. The Collectors are a little busy stealing humans.  They don't have time to start trading.
3a. If someone has a problem with a blockade/mine field on an area of space no one even users or would go near, you deal with it.
3b. If someone tries to dismanted said blockade/mine field, they could be destroyed.  If they're not destroyed, we'd be aware of that, and we'd have a little conversation on telling us where their trade partners are.

This means that mercs aren't going to be happy with Cerberus deploying a minefield on the Omega-4 relay. Also, should Cerberus be detected doing so, a war might break out between the mercs and Cerberus. After seeing the scientists in "Lazarus Cell Station" get massacred by their own mechs, even Shepard couldn't defeat a few dozen major merc bands on their own. Then there's Aria, who could cause hell for Cerberus in Omega space.

1. Which Mercs?
2. Shepard can do anything on his own.  Like defeating mercs for breakfast.
3. Aria wouldn't stop Shepard.  Besides, I'm sure a deal could be made with her, if she was in charge of that space.
4. Cerberus doesn't care.  They go all over the galaxy, even the Citadel, and no one cares.

Surveilance isn't much better, with very similar consequences. Only the Normandy is truely equipped for stealth recon, and Aria can somehow render that obsolete. Cerberus = detected, Cerberus = dead.

How is it worse?  Seriously, give me one reason how a spy satellite would be worse.  Or even a spy satellite disguised as a warning becon.  Seriously, aruge that.

Normandy is a stealth ship.  No other ship compares.  It's designed for stealth.  We need intel.  This is a good way of getting it, despite your fabricated and made up risks.

I hope whoever came up with the wall idea was joking. How would you build that? What if a ship came through before it was finished (and it would take several months/years to finish, a relay is the size of several dreadnaughts combined.)

A wall of mines?  Like the 50 or so number of probes the Normandy can carry?

Edit: What merc groups do you ask? Well, the Blue Suns had a collection tryst in the comic "Incursion" (or whatever it was called.) Those blokes also work for the Shadow Broker in Redemtion (or pretend to, haven't finished yet.) A group that splintered from another did some collecting in Ascenion (no real name, just in it for the creds.) I'm sure there's at least one batarian slaver that's heard of the Collectors. They are far more than imaginary. You just wish they were imaginary. (They spooky.)

We have no problems taking care of the Blue suns on every occasion.

The Shadow Broker is one of our enemies, so I don't see how this is a bad thing.

Batarians would attack any humans anyway.

Regardness, NONE use the relay except the Collectors.  We're doing intel.  We need to find the Collectors.  This is how you do it.  God.

[Count Viceroy]

The omega 4 relay leads to 4chan. /b/ would be the supermassive black hole.

[Nightwriter]

I don't care what anyone says, broccoli is delicious.

[smudboy]

Nightwriter wrote...

I don't care what anyone says, broccoli is delicious.

Go back to bed, Night.  Dream of...your stuff.  Or whatever you do for breakfast.

[Nightwriter]

smudboy wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I don't care what anyone says, broccoli is delicious.

Go back to bed, Night.  Dream of...your stuff.  Or whatever you do for breakfast.

How DARE you call my grandmother that! She's put those days behind her! She hasn't been around alligators in years!

[jackkel dragon]

[quote]smudboy wrote...

[quote]jackkel dragon wrote...

Just to clear up why mercs/slavers would care about their collector friends... [spoilers ahead]




[quote]Isolationist to the extreme, the Collectors were rarely seen anywhere but Omega and a few of the nearby inhabited worlds. Even then, decades could pass with no reported sightings at the station, only to give way to a few years marked by several dozen sporadic visits from envoys looking to barter and trade with other species.[/quote]

Emphasis added. Written by Drew Karpyshyn in Mass Effect: Ascension.

The years leading up to ME1 began the sporadic visits for this timeframe, as indicated by the activites of the Shadow Broker in Redemption. In Ascension, one of the major characters betrays his own people because of the Collector's promise of reward.
[/quote]
1. "rarely seen anywhere but Omega...decades could pass with no reported sightings."
2. The Collectors are a little busy stealing humans.  They don't have time to start trading.
3a. If someone has a problem with a blockade/mine field on an area of space no one even users or would go near, you deal with it.
3b. If someone tries to dismanted said blockade/mine field, they could be destroyed.  If they're not destroyed, we'd be aware of that, and we'd have a little conversation on telling us where their trade partners are.[/quote]

1 - That wasn't the point, especially with all the Collector attacks during ME2. I'll grant you that they weren't seen by anyone but Shepard in ME2, but in the two years leading up to that the Collectors visited Omega at least twice (once in Redemption and once in Incursion.)
2 - The Collectors apparently had time to trade during Incursion, just a little bit before ME2. That was before they started abducting humans, so I'll grant you the ME2 timeframe.
3a - I'm not the one dealing with it, Cerberus is. Not very stealthy for a shadow organization. Remember that some people in Cerberus aren't idiots (very few, though. Every Cerberus guy in ME1 was idiotic to the extreme.)
3b - Forget dismantling the placed mines, that would be suicide. The minefield laying would be disrupted, Cerberus won't send all their ships to one location. Meaning: Slow progress. It would take at least a few days to mine the region, giving time for a few merc ships to come.

[quote]
[quote]
This means that mercs aren't going to be happy with Cerberus deploying a minefield on the Omega-4 relay. Also, should Cerberus be detected doing so, a war might break out between the mercs and Cerberus. After seeing the scientists in "Lazarus Cell Station" get massacred by their own mechs, even Shepard couldn't defeat a few dozen major merc bands on their own. Then there's Aria, who could cause hell for Cerberus in Omega space.
[/quote]
1. Which Mercs?
2. Shepard can do anything on his own.  Like defeating mercs for breakfast.
3. Aria wouldn't stop Shepard.  Besides, I'm sure a deal could be made with her, if she was in charge of that space.
4. Cerberus doesn't care.  They go all over the galaxy, even the Citadel, and no one cares.[/quote]

1 - Blue suns, among others. Anyone who operates near Omega, really.
2 - Shepard could eventually kill every merc in the galaxy. But mercs can send out dozens of teams to kill off all known Cerberus locations before Shepard could get there, even if they split the team.
3 - Good point, Shepard could negotiate a pact with Aria. Most mercs are too afraid to stop her from doing something. The question is price: she hates Collectors, but what would she want for ticking off her merc gangs? The mercs in Omega don't really like Aria, they just have a grudging respect (as seen with Ish and the Archangel hunters.)
4 - Cerberus is everywhere, but they don't advertise their presence. Ascension proves this: two Cerberus operatives are exposed on an Alliance station after years of being undetected. Only Shepard moves without stealth in Cerberus.

[quote]
[quote]
Surveilance isn't much better, with very similar consequences. Only the Normandy is truely equipped for stealth recon, and Aria can somehow render that obsolete. Cerberus = detected, Cerberus = dead.
[/quote]
How is it worse?  Seriously, give me one reason how a spy satellite would be worse.  Or even a spy satellite disguised as a warning becon.  Seriously, aruge that.

Normandy is a stealth ship.  No other ship compares.  It's designed for stealth.  We need intel.  This is a good way of getting it, despite your fabricated and made up risks.[/quote]

1 - I never said it was worse.
2 - The risks were detailed above, so I didn't think I needed to copy/paste.
3 - Spy satillites in someone else's space tend to get shot down fast.
4 - The Normandy could be used for surveillance, especially with Aria's permission. But that means Shepard isn't anywhere else. Unless they used a different ship, of course.

[quote]
[quote]
I hope whoever came up with the wall idea was joking. How would you build that? What if a ship came through before it was finished (and it would take several months/years to finish, a relay is the size of several dreadnaughts combined.)
[/quote]
A wall of mines?  Like the 50 or so number of probes the Normandy can carry?[/quote]

I was under the impression that the suggestion was to built an iron/brick/stone wall kind of thing. A wall of mines is basically a minefield, so that goes to the above. My bad on the minewall.

[quote]
[quote]
Edit: What merc groups do you ask? Well, the Blue Suns had a collection tryst in the comic "Incursion" (or whatever it was called.) Those blokes also work for the Shadow Broker in Redemtion (or pretend to, haven't finished yet.) A group that splintered from another did some collecting in Ascenion (no real name, just in it for the creds.) I'm sure there's at least one batarian slaver that's heard of the Collectors. They are far more than imaginary. You just wish they were imaginary. (They spooky.)[/quote]
We have no problems taking care of the Blue suns on every occasion.

The Shadow Broker is one of our enemies, so I don't see how this is a bad thing.

Batarians would attack any humans anyway.

Regardness, NONE use the relay except the Collectors.  We're doing intel.  We need to find the Collectors.  This is how you do it.  God.
[/quote]

1 - Shepard is great at killing Mercs. But what about incompetant Cerberus blokes wherever Shepard isn't?
2 - You don't ****** off the Shadow Broker without expecting retribution. (Fist?) But now that he's an enemy, might as well tick him of... maybe get him to show himself...
3 - Not necessarily. But the slavers I was talking about would.
4 - I think you mean "no one." (lame, but I notice)
5 - Just a paragraph after the one I quoted from Ascension states that other ships try to use the Omega-4. Of course, they're all dead and ME2 confirms that no one has used it for years unless they were Collectors.
6 - Just know the risks before you get into anything.

[smudboy]

[quote]jackkel dragon wrote...
1 - That wasn't the point, especially with all the Collector attacks during ME2. I'll grant you that they weren't seen by anyone but Shepard in ME2, but in the two years leading up to that the Collectors visited Omega at least twice (once in Redemption and once in Incursion.)
2 - The Collectors apparently had time to trade during Incursion, just a little bit before ME2. That was before they started abducting humans, so I'll grant you the ME2 timeframe.
[/quote]
Supplementary material is irrelevant.  We need to base our understanding of ME2 alone.
[quote]
3a - I'm not the one dealing with it, Cerberus is. Not very stealthy for a shadow organization. Remember that some people in Cerberus aren't idiots (very few, though. Every Cerberus guy in ME1 was idiotic to the extreme.)
3b - Forget dismantling the placed mines, that would be suicide. The minefield laying would be disrupted, Cerberus won't send all their ships to one location. Meaning: Slow progress. It would take at least a few days to mine the region, giving time for a few merc ships to come.
[/quote]
I'm saying Shepard should get some mines and start laying them out around the relay, so yes, Shepard/Cerberus is dealing with it.

We want the mine field disrupted.  We want:
1) The Collectors
2) Those that know the Collectors.

If it's not, we can assume 1. no one went near it, 2. the Collectors are past the relay, or off someone else in the galaxy.

We need leads.  We need intel.  This is one way to do it.

It takes seconds to fire a probe that magically harvests resources from a variety of planets.  Launching a mine or flying by an area of space and dropping of a mine to construct a mine field seems relatively simple.

[quote]
1 - Blue suns, among others. Anyone who operates near Omega, really.
[/quote]
1. Good.  I want to know who the Collectors are trading with.  Steal their ship, and conduct a surprise attack.
2. You're Shepard.  You kill mercs.  This is compelte acceptable.

[quote]
2 - Shepard could eventually kill every merc in the galaxy. But mercs can send out dozens of teams to kill off all known Cerberus locations before Shepard could get there, even if they split the team.
[/quote]
Cerberus locations are unknown to merc groups.  Who cares if mercs send more mercs out to kill of Cerberus locations?  Who the f*ck cares about Cerberus locations?  The only location I care about is the relay.
[quote]
3 - Good point, Shepard could negotiate a pact with Aria. Most mercs are too afraid to stop her from doing something. The question is price: she hates Collectors, but what would she want for ticking off her merc gangs? The mercs in Omega don't really like Aria, they just have a grudging respect (as seen with Ish and the Archangel hunters.)
[/quote]
Ask her.

[quote]
4 - Cerberus is everywhere, but they don't advertise their presence. Ascension proves this: two Cerberus operatives are exposed on an Alliance station after years of being undetected. Only Shepard moves without stealth in Cerberus.
[/quote]
I fail to see your point.

I'm just going to go ahead and delete a lot of your comments which were meaningless.
[quote]
3 - Spy satillites in someone else's space tend to get shot down fast.
[/quote]
Whose space?  The space around the relay?  No one wants that space.  No one wants to go near that space.  Again, if its' Aria, talk to Aria.  Like she cares about a mine field around the Omega-4 relay.
[quote]
4 - The Normandy could be used for surveillance, especially with Aria's permission. But that means Shepard isn't anywhere else. Unless they used a different ship, of course.
[/quote]
Cerberus has plenty of ships should Shepard not be the one laying a mine field or doing recon.

[quote]
I was under the impression that the suggestion was to built an iron/brick/stone wall kind of thing. A wall of mines is basically a minefield, so that goes to the above. My bad on the minewall.
[/quote]
A blockade by any other name, would explode just a sweet.

[quote]
1 - Shepard is great at killing Mercs. <snip>
[/quote]
Full stop.  Problem solved.

[quote]
2 - You don't ****** off the Shadow Broker without expecting retribution. (Fist?) But now that he's an enemy, might as well tick him of... maybe get him to show himself...
[/quote]
We haven't pissed off the Shadow Broker.  Actually this is an argument in my favor.

[quote]
3 - Not necessarily. But the slavers I was talking about would.
[/quote]
Slavers are insignificant to the power of the Thanix cannon.  Or a mine field.  And if they are, then we go hunt them down, find out what they know about the Collectors, and then kill them with bullets.

[quote]
4 - I think you mean "no one." (lame, but I notice)
[/quote]
I have "no idea" wtf you're referring to.
[quote]
5 - Just a paragraph after the one I quoted from Ascension states that other ships try to use the Omega-4. Of course, they're all dead and ME2 confirms that no one has used it for years unless they were Collectors.
[/quote]
In my favor.
[quote]
6 - Just know the risks before you get into anything.[/quote]
The risks of laying down a mine field no one uses EXCEPT our enemy?  One dead enemy?  One partially damaged enemy?  One angrier enemy?

Oh wait we might ****** off some merc groups who want to trade with our enemy who only contacts whomever they want, not necessarily them, if they've even traded with them in the past...

Right.

Holy crap that's brilliant.  Good going smudboy.  I just tied the useless merc groups into the main plot.

[Kroesis-]

Mining the relay would not provide intel on what the collectors are doing with the colonists and the resources they have.

[jackkel dragon]

smudboy wrote...

Supplementary material is irrelevant.  We need to base our understanding of ME2 alone.

It's not completely irrelevant, if this new "Shadow Broker" DLC means anything. But I'll try to tone done the bonus stuff, to keep within the Trilogy. (Concede)

4 - Cerberus is everywhere, but they don't advertise their presence. Ascension proves this: two Cerberus operatives are exposed on an Alliance station after years of being undetected. Only Shepard moves without stealth in Cerberus.

I fail to see your point.

I was just saying that Cerberus isn't going to do something in full view of people. This point is made moot by the fact Shepard even exists. (Concede)

1 - Shepard is great at killing Mercs.

Full stop.  Problem solved.

Unless allied casualties are a problem. Of course, a few dead terrorists never hurt anybody... (Concede)

4 - I think you mean "no one." (lame, but I notice)

I have "no idea" wtf you're referring to.

Grammar error in the thing I quoted. Like I said, pedantic and lame. Forget I mentioned it. (Moot)

I'm not sure why you're being so confrontational. You have some great points, but you act like disproving me is the most important thing to do. You even write belligerentally when I concede. When I try to clarify what I meant, you seem to dismiss my clarifications. Do you always act like this on forums?

Anyway, the short version why mining won't work: more work for the developers. A war with the merc bands would require even more combat scenarios (like we don't have enough...) and a lot of new content for Omega at the expense of the other parts of the game. That's my developer excuse for that plan. It's not based at all in the story logic, but that's probably what happened.

With permission from Aria and the willingness to fight a war with mercs (aside from doing the intel gathering,) Shepard technically could mine field the relay. Unfortunately, that would be a whole game right there. (Actually, that would be kind of cool. Just a bit repetitive.)

PS: I conceded most of my points, so I marked them as such. Just to be crystal clear.

[angj57]

Whether or not it is physically possible to destroy a mass relay doesn't matter. Obviously everything can be destroyed. But the relays are massive and it would probably take a large Citadel fleet to have enough firepower to destroy them. We have known from day one that the Citadel will send no fleets into the Terminus systems.

No plot hole at all.

[smudboy]

jackkel dragon wrote...
PS: I conceded most of my points, so I marked them as such. Just to be crystal clear.

I see it as a very clear plot hole.  Kinda need to hammer it into everyone's heads.  This one is special, since it's based on an action the narrative didn't explain, and is quite obvious.

[Kroesis-]

smudboy wrote...
I see it as a very clear plot hole.  Kinda need to hammer it into everyone's heads. 

No, no you don't.
Also mining the relay would not provide intel on what the collectors are doing with the colonists and the resources they have which is what I thought a part of the game was about.

Modifié par Kroesis-, 25 juillet 2010 - 09:38 .

[xSTONEYx187x]

Kroesis- wrote...

smudboy wrote...
I see it as a very clear plot hole.  Kinda need to hammer it into everyone's heads. 

No, no you don't.
Also mining the relay would not provide intel on what the collectors are doing with the colonists and the resources they have which is what I thought a part of the game was about.

He's obviously a troll. He has a link in is sig that goes to a video, about how Mass Effect has one of the worst storys in video game history.

Why exactly are you on this site, if you clearly dont like the game. Haters will be haters......

[statesman1114]

I thought they used mass relays to launch to a different place. By destroying the omega relay, they would only be making it impossible to go to the collector homeworld. Then the collectors could just build a million ships and send them all simultaneously to collect everyone.

[InvaderErl]

You need point A and point B for a relay to work.

But I think its pretty much canonical that relays are impervious to conventional attack.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 25 juillet 2010 - 09:52 .

[Kroesis-]

InvaderErl wrote...

You need point A and point B for a relay to work.

But I think its pretty much canonical that relays are impervious to conventional attack.

You have a point here. The Omega 4 relay apparently only goes to one place.. fine, I'll accept that, but what about the other end, wouldn't there be a relay there? Who says that the one there can't be directed for another route? [Edit]Well I guess that wouldn't be the case if the Omega 4 relay was a primary relay which I'll assume it is.

Modifié par Kroesis-, 25 juillet 2010 - 10:20 .

[jackkel dragon]

InvaderErl wrote...

You need point A and point B for a relay to work.

But I think its pretty much canonical that relays are impervious to conventional attack.

It states in the codex of both games that relays are impervious to all known weapons.

[smudboy]

Kroesis- wrote...

smudboy wrote...
I see it as a very clear plot hole.  Kinda need to hammer it into everyone's heads. 

No, no you don't.
Also mining the relay would not provide intel on what the collectors are doing with the colonists and the resources they have which is what I thought a part of the game was about.

Listen, I just had an argument where I clearly showed a plot hole.  Try re-reading it again.

Mining the relay would produce intel on the Collectors: where they are.  The goal of the plot is to Stop the Collectors.  Here's a simple way of doing it.

Nowhere in this plan does it stop Shepard and co from obtaining the IFF and eventually going through the relay.

Modifié par smudboy, 25 juillet 2010 - 10:02 .

[smudboy]

xSTONEYx187x wrote...

Kroesis- wrote...

smudboy wrote...
I see it as a very clear plot hole.  Kinda need to hammer it into everyone's heads. 

No, no you don't.
Also mining the relay would not provide intel on what the collectors are doing with the colonists and the resources they have which is what I thought a part of the game was about.

He's obviously a troll. He has a link in is sig that goes to a video, about how Mass Effect has one of the worst storys in video game history.

Why exactly are you on this site, if you clearly dont like the game. Haters will be haters......

How am I a troll?

I say how ME2 has one of the worst plots in video game history.

I don't hate the game.  This is because you are an idiot and making assumptions.  But I forgive you.