581 réponses à ce sujet

[wulf3n]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
If our hero is attacked and defends himself with a banana instead of his gun, thats a plot hole. But if he defends himself with his gun instead of his nunchucks, we really don't need an explanation and its not a plot hole if its not provided.

But if he defended himself with his nunchucks instead of his gun, that would be a plot hole.

[smudboy]

theelementslayer wrote...

smudboy wrote...

theelementslayer wrote...

A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot.

Thats a plothole.

The collector base is not an inconsitancy, or ommision of relevant information, TIM wants the base

Keep reading the definition.

This is also a plot hole:
-(e.g. "I've tried everything I can think of..." to keep critics from asking why a particular action was not taken).
-Characters
ignoring or avoiding obvious solutions to their problems, provided
those solutions are obvious to the characters, and not just the
viewers.

Well maybe TIM is dumb, didnt think of those options, because he is just such a HUGE idiot, and instaed actually made us do stuff so we could have an extremely fun game to play. I could just see how you game wuold play out.

They are taking our colonies.
alright lets mine the relay
relay is mined lets wait
"cue intermission music"
oh look they blew up
the end

Yes you can come up with any number of reasons.  Doesn't change the fact it's a plot hole.

[Whatever42]

The scene could be written any number of ways.

Yes, and you would insist on narration on each way, I'm sure.

 Point? 

The inhabitants of the Terminus systems are a notoriously touchy bunch. Mining one of their systems would likely provoke a response

Mines and laying them would take less time then playing mineral planeteer.

Cerberus is stretched pretty thin at this point. Most of its resources went into the Normandy. More resources are spent on overlord, the Reaper mission, and various operations which are apparently self-destructing. When you have an offensive going through the relay shortly anyway, why would you divert resources from that for a dubious defensive position?

The SR2 has no problem engaging the Collectors.

With Turian technology secured by Garrus, yes. However, that ship is slated for an offensive against the Collectors. I don't see much else capable of holding that relay.

-(e.g. "I've tried everything I can think of..." to keep critics from asking why a particular action was not taken).
-Characters ignoring or avoiding obvious solutions to their problems, provided those solutions are obvious to the characters, and not just the viewers.

This solution is not obvious and its not obviously superior to the offensive mission they have underway. Perhaps it would be a useful backup plan but that would not be relevant to the story.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 29 juillet 2010 - 03:48 .

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

smudboy wrote...

theelementslayer wrote...

smudboy wrote...

theelementslayer wrote...

A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot.

Thats a plothole.

The collector base is not an inconsitancy, or ommision of relevant information, TIM wants the base

Keep reading the definition.

This is also a plot hole:
-(e.g. "I've tried everything I can think of..." to keep critics from asking why a particular action was not taken).
-Characters
ignoring or avoiding obvious solutions to their problems, provided
those solutions are obvious to the characters, and not just the
viewers.

Well maybe TIM is dumb, didnt think of those options, because he is just such a HUGE idiot, and instaed actually made us do stuff so we could have an extremely fun game to play. I could just see how you game wuold play out.

They are taking our colonies.
alright lets mine the relay
relay is mined lets wait
"cue intermission music"
oh look they blew up
the end

Yes you can come up with any number of reasons.  Doesn't change the fact it's a plot hole.

How can it be a solid fact if The Illusive Man himself never thought of the idea?

[smudboy]

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...
How can it be a solid fact if The Illusive Man himself never thought of the idea?

Congratuations.  You just described the plot hole.

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

smudboy wrote...

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...
How can it be a solid fact if The Illusive Man himself never thought of the idea?

Congratuations.  You just described the plot hole.

According to you then, there must be plotholes in every single story ever written by anyone, anywhere.

[Whatever42]

wulf3n wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
If our hero is attacked and defends himself with a banana instead of his gun, thats a plot hole. But if he defends himself with his gun instead of his nunchucks, we really don't need an explanation and its not a plot hole if its not provided.

But if he defended himself with his nunchucks instead of his gun, that would be a plot hole.

Possibly, if the gun was clearly more suitable to fight.

However, read my other post. Defending the relay is not obviously the best choice. I would suggest that you would be arguing pretty hard and stretching your logic pretty thin if you tried to convince anyone it was even marginally the best choice.

[smudboy]

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

smudboy wrote...

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...
How can it be a solid fact if The Illusive Man himself never thought of the idea?

Congratuations.  You just described the plot hole.

According to you then, there must be plotholes in every single story ever written by anyone, anywhere.

And where is my definition of a plot hole to make you come to that conclusion?

[theelementslayer]

smudboy wrote...

Yes you can come up with any number of reasons.  Doesn't change the fact it's a plot hole.

So your saying, that every single option that someone didnt decide to take, wether it be he didnt think of it, or he didnt deem it a good idea and never told anyone, is a plot hole. I can think of many things that I could have done in my real life that would have turned out better if I had done them differently. Did I ? No. If I made a movie on it would it be a plot hole or just a dumb thing I forgot to do?

I can see why you didnt enjoy the game. The way that TIM didnt take alot of options is his character development. He wants something his way, he plays it close to the chest, ie. Not telling anyone is his way. We play as commander shepard so we wouldnt know how he was thinking, why or why not he chose to do it, ect ect.

Just the time to take to explain every circumstance in every situation would make the game unbearablely long.

[wulf3n]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
This solution is not obvious and its not obviously superior to the offensive mission they have underway. Perhaps it would be a useful backup plan but that would not be relevant to the story.

They are more obvious than TIM's apparent ability to see into the future. What he get's shepard to do, would imply that he knew the Collectors had a base of operations, rather than just a ship, that the Collectors Defense would be penetrable by a single cruiser, and that shepard would be stupid enough to crash  the normandy would crash into the collector base, making the squad mates you gathered actually usefull.

Modifié par wulf3n, 29 juillet 2010 - 03:56 .

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

smudboy wrote...

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

smudboy wrote...

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...
How can it be a solid fact if The Illusive Man himself never thought of the idea?

Congratuations.  You just described the plot hole.

According to you then, there must be plotholes in every single story ever written by anyone, anywhere.

And where is my definition of a plot hole to make you come to that conclusion?

Somebody not thinking of something that is "obvious".

[smudboy]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Yes, and you would insist on narration on each way, I'm sure.

Proper exposition for storytelling, obviously.

The inhabitants of the Terminus systems are a notoriously touchy bunch. Mining one of their systems would likely provoke a response

Oh no.

Cerberus is stretched pretty thin at this point. Most of its resources went into the Normandy. More resources are spent on overlord, the Reaper mission, and various operations which are apparently self-destructing. When you have an offensive going through the relay shortly anyway, why would you divert resources from that for a dubious defensive position?

Nonsense.  TIM has no problem sending multiple ships out after everyone on the Suicide Mission gets killed, and they're all IFF enabled.  TIM's got the stuff.

With Turian technology secured by Garrus, yes. However, that ship is slated for an offensive against the Collectors. I don't see much else capable of holding that relay.

The ship can do just find without the Thanix, case you were wondering.

This solution is not obvious and its not obviously superior to the offensive mission they have underway. Perhaps it would be a useful backup plan but that would not be relevant to the story.

I didn't say it was superior, I said it was an obvious way to gain information and is very simple to accomplish.

[smudboy]

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...
Somebody not thinking of something that is "obvious".

It is obvious.

If the point of a story is to stop a guy from doing something...

And we know what the guy looks like.
We know he comes out of a door only he has access to.
You camp the f*cking door.

It's that simple.  This is like police investigation 101.

[ADLegend21]

no the real plot hole to rule them all is that no onecalls shepard by their first name even peopleoutside of military ranks DUH! *rolls eyes*

[Whatever42]

wulf3n wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
This solution is not obvious and its not obviously superior to the offensive mission they have underway. Perhaps it would be a useful backup plan but that would not be relevant to the story.

They are more obvious than TIM's apparent ability to see into the future. What he get's shepard to do, would imply that he knew the Collectors had a base of operations, rather than just a ship, that the Collectors Defense would be penetrable by a single cruiser, and that shepard would be stupid enough to crash  that normandy would crash into the collector base, making the squad mates you gathered actually usefull.

You could argue that its higher risk to attack through the relay than to defend it, although I think both are very high risk. However, is safe in character for Cerberus? Please carefully examine their history. 

Also, is it the best strategic option? Remember, the Reapers are coming. Blowing up a collector ship and camping the relay is not necessarily the best option here. You already have a destroyed reapers ship. Gaining a destroyed collector ship would be of minimal value in your preparations for the Reapers. However, a collector base and learning what the collectors are up to is far more valuable.

Would TIM really be content with a destroyed Collector ship. Again, please carefully consider his history.

Shepard wants to rescue the colonists, not simply camp a relay. He's also very gung ho about going on the offensive so its not hard to believe that he sees a mission through the relay as the best option. Once again, please examine his actions through ME1 - is he really a sit back and wait kind of guy.

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

smudboy wrote...

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...
Somebody not thinking of something that is "obvious".

It is obvious.

If the point of a story is to stop a guy from doing something...

And we know what the guy looks like.
We know he comes out of a door only he has access to.
You camp the f*cking door.

It's that simple.  This is like police investigation 101.

It isn't obvious to absolutely everybody. That's not the best example.

[theelementslayer]

ADLegend21 wrote...

no the real plot hole to rule them all is that no onecalls shepard by their first name even peopleoutside of military ranks DUH! *rolls eyes*

No the real plot hole is. HOW CAN WE COMMAND SHEPARD TO MOVE. there is no telekenises, its like we are......ASSUMING CONTROL

[smudboy]

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

smudboy wrote...

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...
Somebody not thinking of something that is "obvious".

It is obvious.

If the point of a story is to stop a guy from doing something...

And we know what the guy looks like.
We know he comes out of a door only he has access to.
You camp the f*cking door.

It's that simple.  This is like police investigation 101.

It isn't obvious to absolutely everybody. That's not the best example.

Only to blind morons who can't read books past 3rd grade.

[theelementslayer]

smudboy wrote...

It is obvious.

If the point of a story is to stop a guy from doing something...

And we know what the guy looks like.
We know he comes out of a door only he has access to.
You camp the f*cking door.

It's that simple.  This is like police investigation 101.

But the point of the story is not to stop the collectors, its to gather intel on them. We learn about that when TIM contacts shepard on the base. He never wanted to just stop them he wanted the base. How can we do that just by camping the relay?

[smudboy]

theelementslayer wrote...

smudboy wrote...

It is obvious.

If the point of a story is to stop a guy from doing something...

And we know what the guy looks like.
We know he comes out of a door only he has access to.
You camp the f*cking door.

It's that simple.  This is like police investigation 101.

But the point of the story is not to stop the collectors, its to gather intel on them. We learn about that when TIM contacts shepard on the base. He never wanted to just stop them he wanted the base. How can we do that just by camping the relay?

You are incorrect.  The point of the story is to "Stop the Collectors from taking human colonies."

[Whatever42]

Proper exposition for storytelling, obviously.

Well, you must be very disappointed in every work of fiction or even non-fiction ever produced. 

 Oh no. 

That's the best response you can manage? You must be out of material.

Nonsense.  TIM has no problem sending multiple ships out after everyone on the Suicide Mission gets killed, and they're all IFF enabled.  TIM's got the stuff.

Fair point. It still doesn't mean he has the resources to secure the relay, however.

The ship can do just find without the Thanix, case you were wondering.

It was beaten up pretty severely and could have just as easily lost. And they still don't know the capabilities of the Collectors so assuming they can't see the future, they are undertaking a big risk to hold the relay for no gain.

I didn't say it was superior, I said it was an obvious way to gain information and is very simple to accomplish.

Its not simple to accomplish and if its not clearly a the superior course of action then its not a plot hole.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 29 juillet 2010 - 04:06 .

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

smudboy wrote...

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

smudboy wrote...

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...
Somebody not thinking of something that is "obvious".

It is obvious.

If the point of a story is to stop a guy from doing something...

And we know what the guy looks like.
We know he comes out of a door only he has access to.
You camp the f*cking door.

It's that simple.  This is like police investigation 101.

It isn't obvious to absolutely everybody. That's not the best example.

Only to blind morons who can't read books past 3rd grade.

Wow. Just wow.

[theelementslayer]

smudboy wrote...

You are incorrect.  The point of the story is to "Stop the Collectors from taking human colonies."

Wow, again as I said before great politician material

YOU LIE

Ok, if it was just to stop the collectors why
-Would TIM contact you right when your about to blow it and ask for it to be kept?
-Would you be looking for connection between the reapers and the collectors?

Its not just about solving the symptom but actually solving the cause. THey know they are working for the reapers, TIM wants to know why, and how can we stop them?

[Whatever42]

smudboy wrote...

theelementslayer wrote...

smudboy wrote...

It is obvious.

If the point of a story is to stop a guy from doing something...

And we know what the guy looks like.
We know he comes out of a door only he has access to.
You camp the f*cking door.

It's that simple.  This is like police investigation 101.

But the point of the story is not to stop the collectors, its to gather intel on them. We learn about that when TIM contacts shepard on the base. He never wanted to just stop them he wanted the base. How can we do that just by camping the relay?

You are incorrect.  The point of the story is to "Stop the Collectors from taking human colonies."

You are incorrect. The point of the story is to save the galaxy from the Reapers. Stopping the Collectors is certainly a step in that goal but you don't plan the battle forgetting about the rest of the war.

[ADLegend21]

theelementslayer wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

no the real plot hole to rule them all is that no onecalls shepard by their first name even peopleoutside of military ranks DUH! *rolls eyes*

No the real plot hole is. HOW CAN WE COMMAND SHEPARD TO MOVE. there is no telekenises, its like we are......ASSUMING CONTROL

No no,  the REAL plothole is...This smiley ->