581 réponses à ce sujet

[Whatever42]

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

smudboy wrote...

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

smudboy wrote...

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...
Somebody not thinking of something that is "obvious".

It is obvious.

If the point of a story is to stop a guy from doing something...

And we know what the guy looks like.
We know he comes out of a door only he has access to.
You camp the f*cking door.

It's that simple.  This is like police investigation 101.

It isn't obvious to absolutely everybody. That's not the best example.

Only to blind morons who can't read books past 3rd grade.

Wow. Just wow.

When he runs out of spin material, it means you win. 

[smudboy]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Well, you must be very disappointed in every work of fiction or even non-fiction ever produced. 

I try not to read too much fiction.

That's the best response you can manage? You must be out of material.

It's terribly hard to bring intelligence to stupid comments.

Fair point. It still doesn't mean he has the resources to secure the relay, however.

If he has ships, he can afford fuel.
If he can afford fuel, he can afford satellites, mines, comm buoys, weapons, and the like.

It was beaten up pretty severely and could have just as easily lost. And they still don't know the capabilities of the Collectors so assuming they can't see the future, they are undertaking a big risk to hold the relay for no gain.

Future of what?  With no ship upgrades the ship does just fine against the Cruiser.

Its not simple to accomplish and if its not clearly a the superior course of action then its not a plot hole.

It's quite simple to have a number of methods of camping/scoping out/mining the relay.  Do I need to explain them all in detail, or can you not use your imagination for like 10 seconds?

It doesn't have to be superior; it's not even an issue of the "best".  Although I'd argue it's more efficient.  It has to be obvious and simple.  It is obvious and simple, and TIM, Shepard, Jacob, EDI, and a few others are aware of the connection between the Collectors and the Relay.  Detective work 101.  If you can't figure this out, you're blind or just stupid.

[theelementslayer]

ADLegend21 wrote...

theelementslayer wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

no the real plot hole to rule them all is that no onecalls shepard by their first name even peopleoutside of military ranks DUH! *rolls eyes*

No the real plot hole is. HOW CAN WE COMMAND SHEPARD TO MOVE. there is no telekenises, its like we are......ASSUMING CONTROL

No no,  the REAL plothole is...This smiley ->

Nono its. WHY ARE WE ALIVE, and of course this -> I mean where is the reasoning behind that. I DEMAND EXPOSITION TO THE HIGHEST DEGREE

[wulf3n]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
You could argue that its higher risk to attack through the relay than to defend it, although I think both are very high risk. However, is safe in character for Cerberus? Please carefully examine their history. 

How is a suprise attack on a ship, in your territory, just as *edit: risky* as diving head first into their territory, with no knowledge of their defenses, their numbers, or even where they are?

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Also, is it the best strategic option? Remember, the Reapers are coming. Blowing up a collector ship and camping the relay is not necessarily the best option here. You already have a destroyed reapers ship. Gaining a destroyed collector ship would be of minimal value in your preparations for the Reapers. However, a collector base and learning what the collectors are up to is far more valuable.

Before Horizon you don't even know the Collectors work for the reapers, and stopping them was your first priority, like you said, you have to prepare for the reapers, you don't have time to waste on the collectors. Yet at that stage, you were still building up an elite team, to assault them through the omega 4 relay?

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Would TIM really be content with a destroyed Collector ship. Again, please carefully consider his history.

Like you said, he already had a dead reaper, the most technologically advanced race known in existence, what use is some collector tech, compared to that?

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Shepard wants to rescue the colonists, not simply camp a relay. He's also very gung ho about going on the offensive so its not hard to believe that he sees a mission through the relay as the best option. Once again, please examine his actions through ME1 - is he really a sit back and wait kind of guy.

By camping the relay he is saving the colonists. Chasing dead leads is a waste of time, if you know where your quarry has to go! Shepard would want to save as many colonists as possible to do that he has to stop the collectors, gathering squad mates, for a battle you don't even know will happen is a waste of time.

Modifié par wulf3n, 29 juillet 2010 - 04:31 .

[Whatever42]

I try not to read too much fiction.

Clearly.

It's terribly hard to bring intelligence to stupid comments.

I don't know how you can live with yourself then. But again, insults simply mean you've surrendered the point.

If he has ships, he can afford fuel.
If he can afford fuel, he can afford satellites, mines, comm buoys, weapons, and the like.

Thats a pretty big assumption. I would even say it would be a plot hole.

Future of what?  With no ship upgrades the ship does just fine against the Cruiser.

Cerberus only has one of these ships. Camping the relay with it means not going through the relay with it. It means the ship is sitting in the system and we know Collector technology can detect it. It means its vulnerable to attack. It would be silly to try to hold a fixed position with the Normandy.

It doesn't have to be superior; it's not even an issue of the "best".  Although I'd argue it's more efficient.  It has to be obvious and simple.  It is obvious and simple, and TIM, Shepard, Jacob, EDI, and a few others are aware of the connection between the Collectors and the Relay.  Detective work 101.  If you can't figure this out, you're blind or just stupid.

You arguing that its a potential course of action. However, its not a plot hole if its not the obviously superior course of action. I would argue that camping the relay would be a plot hole because it would be deeply out of character for both TIM and Shepard, who have both proven themselves very aggressive in pursuit of the enemy. Remember Shepard's reaction to the defensive posture of the Council in ME1?

I am not suggesting that camping the relay is not a viable course of action. I am suggesting it is not a plot hole because its not clearly the best course of action. Further, it would be out of character.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 29 juillet 2010 - 04:20 .

[Whatever42]

How is a suprise attack on a ship, in your territory, just as dangerous as diving head first into their territory, with no knowledge of their defenses, their numbers, or even where they are? 

They don't even suspect that there is only one Collector ship until half way through the game. And, as I said, even if camping the relay is safer, it also has far less reward. 

Before Horizon you don't even know the Collectors work for the reapers, and stopping them was your first priority, like you said, you have to prepare for the reapers, you don't have time to waste on the collectors. Yet at that stage, you were still building up an elite team, to assault them through the omega 4 relay.

TIM knew before the game started that the Collectors worked for the Reapers. He just wanted you to find out for yourself.

Like you said, he already had a dead reaper, the most technologically advanced race known in existence, what use is some collector tech, compared to that?

The Collectors are working for the Reapers. They're up to something, presumably important. The Reapers are a virtually unstoppable force that is very good at exterminating all organic life. So you have the choice of discovering the plans of the Collectors and finding a Collector base or destroying and salvaging a Collector ship. Which option do you take? 

By camping the relay he is saving the colonists. Chasing dead leads is a waste of time, if you know where your quarry has to go! Shepard would want to save as many colonists as possible to do that he has to stop the collectors, gathering squad mates, for a battle you don't even know will happen is a waste of time.

Shepard was furious with the council for taking a defensive posture at the Citadel in ME1. You really think he would readily pursue the same strategy in ME2? If he did, I would call that a plot hole since its so out of character.

And listen to the patter of the crew. Rescuing the colonists was a big deal for them. They were keen and ready to go.

You really think they would willingly defend rather than attack?

And Cerberus is recklessly aggressive.  Their entire history screams go long.

But yet again, arguing that defending the relay is a viable course of action is not enough to suggest a plot hole. If both nunchucks and a gun would serve equally well in a fight then to prove a plot hole you would have to prove that the chosen option was clearly inferior.

[wulf3n]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
 If both nunchucks and a gun would serve equally well in a fight then to prove a plot hole you would have to prove that the chosen option was clearly inferior.

When would nunchucks and a gun ever server equally well? a gun is always a better option, and if someone pulled nunchucks in a movie when they had a gun, and they were trying to kill the person i would be screaming at the screen.

[theelementslayer]

wulf3n wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
 If both nunchucks and a gun would serve equally well in a fight then to prove a plot hole you would have to prove that the chosen option was clearly inferior.

When would nunchucks and a gun ever server equally well? a gun is always a better option, and if someone pulled nunchucks in a movie when they had a gun, and they were trying to kill the person i would be screaming at the screen.

Acutally not neccessarily. Nunchucks are silent and better in CQC, you run out of bullets, nunchucks are better. Hell you pull a gun and it could be turned on you. No guns arent always the better solution.

[Whatever42]

wulf3n wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
 If both nunchucks and a gun would serve equally well in a fight then to prove a plot hole you would have to prove that the chosen option was clearly inferior.

When would nunchucks and a gun ever server equally well? a gun is always a better option, and if someone pulled nunchucks in a movie when they had a gun, and they were trying to kill the person i would be screaming at the screen.

What if the enemy had kidnapped your sister and you needed to take them alive? What if you had jumped your enemy and had to kill him quietly or else alert the other bad guys? 

Now, in those instances, I would certainly need to know there was a sister or that there were other bad guys around. But in the case of ME2, the circumstances are pretty obvious. I didn't have to make anything up or guess about motivations. 

Sure, you could say he could shoot to wound. But if nunchucks are more in character and a completely acceptable weapon in the circumstances then claiming its a plot hole because the reasoning wasn't explicitly narrated is really stretching the definition of plot hole.

[wulf3n]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
They don't even suspect that there is only one Collector ship until half way through the game. And, as I said, even if camping the relay is safer, it also has far less reward.

So you would send your only hope, into a situation you know nothing about, on the off chance they may uncover something, that you don't even know exists? 

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
The Collectors are working for the Reapers. They're up to something, presumably important. The Reapers are a virtually unstoppable force that is very good at exterminating all organic life. So you have the choice of discovering the plans of the Collectors and finding a Collector base or destroying and salvaging a Collector ship. Which option do you take? 

1) Neither you or TIM don't know there is a Collector base with any technology on it
2) And you already have the technology of this unstoppable force in your control?

why do you then still plan on wasting time going through the omega 4 relay when you don't know what you will get out of it?

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Shepard was furious with the council for taking a defensive posture at the Citadel in ME1. You really think he would readily pursue the same strategy in ME2? If he did, I would call that a plot hole since its so out of character.

And listen to the patter of the crew. Rescuing the colonists was a big deal for them. They were keen and ready to go.

You really think they would willingly defend rather than attack?

And Cerberus is recklessly aggressive.  Their entire history screams go long.

But yet again, arguing that defending the relay is a viable course of action is not enough to suggest a plot hole. If both nunchucks and a gun would serve equally well in a fight then to prove a plot hole you would have to prove that the chosen option was clearly inferior.

If it meant saving more lives, yes i think they would.

Yeah ok, we want to find out the Collectors plans...why do you think they're not on the Collector Ship? shouldn't we, you know check it out first, as that would be a lot better in every aspect than charging head first into a situation we know nothing about, for reasons we couldn't possibly know at the time?

Remember until we actually went through the Omega 4 relay we had no idea, there was a base! or there would be any Tech wort salvaging. All we knew was that the Collectors came from there, and go there after they've Collected people. 

[wulf3n]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
What if the enemy had kidnapped your sister and you needed to take them alive? 

Yeah a guns still the better option, fear works pretty well, beating someone with nunchucks is not a safe way to keep someone alive.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
What if you had jumped your enemy and had to kill him quietly or else alert the other bad guys? 

Again fear, or pistol whip, similar action/damage to nunchucks.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Sure, you could say he could shoot to wound. But if nunchucks are more in character and a completely acceptable weapon in the circumstances then claiming its a plot hole because the reasoning wasn't explicitly narrated is really stretching the definition of plot hole.

If they were in character i would be wondering why he carried a gun?

edit: Besides that wasn't my point, i was saying that when is possible that a Gun, or a Nunchuck are both equally good options? and this is where i didn't explain myself clearly, in that situation, where they are both equal, wouldn't a gun be better as it is more flexible?

Modifié par wulf3n, 29 juillet 2010 - 05:01 .

[Whatever42]

So you would send your only hope, into a situation you know nothing about, on the off chance they may uncover something, that you don't even know exists?

That's not the correct question. The correct question is would Shepard and Cerberus do it. I would say absolutely they would.

1) Neither you or TIM don't know there is a Collector base with any technology on it
2) And you already have the technology of this unstoppable force in your control?? 

why do you then still plan on wasting time going through the omega 4 relay when you don't know what you will get out of it?

1) Its in the galactic core. In a briefing we've already theorized there is a station there with unbelievably powerful mass effect fields. That seems like quite the prize.

2) We have some of the technology - a gun capable of equally the firepower of a cruiser. Cruiser firepower is ineffective against Reapers.

3) We know the answers to the missing colonists are there. We strongly suspect there is a base there capable of generating a mass effect field so powerful that it can survive unimaginably intense radiation and gravity.

If it meant saving more lives, yes i think they would.

Yeah ok, we want to find out the Collectors plans...why do you think they're not on the Collector Ship? shouldn't we, you know check it out first, as that would be a lot better in every aspect than charging head first into a situation we know nothing about, for reasons we couldn't possibly know at the time?

Remember until we actually went through the Omega 4 relay we had no idea, there was a base! or there would be any Tech wort salvaging. All we knew was that the Collectors came from there, and go there after they've Collected people. 

We were on the Collector ship. TIM pretty ruthlessly tricked us onto there to gather intel on the Collectors - not the safe course of action. You really think a guy like this would elect to camp the Omega-4 relay?

And whether we would elect to save more lives - TIM wouldn't. I really don't have to go into Cerberus's history, do I?

Shepard might be able to be talked into it, if that is all that was at stake. Although, this is the guy who wanted the Council to go into the Terminus systems and cause a full scale war because he thought the Reapers were that dangerous. They had no idea what was on Ilos but he thought nothing of plunging in. 

There are two kinds of people, those who play to win and those who play not to lose. Shepard clearly plays to win. 
Confident? Insane? Up to you. But again, don't ask what you would do but ask what Shepard would do.

I still maintain that camping the relay would be huge plot hole.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 29 juillet 2010 - 05:02 .

[Whatever42]

wulf3n wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
What if the enemy had kidnapped your sister and you needed to take them alive? 

Yeah a guns still the better option, fear works pretty well, beating someone with nunchucks is not a safe way to keep someone alive.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
What if you had jumped your enemy and had to kill him quietly or else alert the other bad guys? 

Again fear, or pistol whip, similar action/damage to nunchucks.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Sure, you could say he could shoot to wound. But if nunchucks are more in character and a completely acceptable weapon in the circumstances then claiming its a plot hole because the reasoning wasn't explicitly narrated is really stretching the definition of plot hole.

If they were in character i would be wondering why he carried a gun?

edit: Besides that wasn't my point, i was saying that when is possible that a Gun, or a Nunchuck are both equally good options? and this is where i didn't explain myself clearly, in that situation, where they are both equal, wouldn't a gun be better as it is more flexible?

This analogy is spinning out of control. I should write my own cop/ninja video game so we could debate the plot holes.

Again, if you were the character in the story and I knew you preferred guns and only carried nunchucks because your fellow cop/ninja buddies would laugh at you otherwise, then if you suddenly whipped out nunchucks instead of using a gun then, yes, I would agree that its a plot hole unless it was somehow clear in the narration.

But if you were a ninja who became a cop and only carried the gun because you had to then using a gun to pistol whip someone when you had your favorite nunchucks on your belt would be a plot hole.

If you had no obvious preference then neither pistol whipping or nunchucking someone should be a plot hole.

But frankly, for me a plot hole has to be something that causes a significant number of readers/players/watchers to do a double take. Its a "oh, come on!" moment. Thats why the definition of plot hole has the word "relevant". If its not really relevant, who cares?

[wulf3n]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
That's not the correct question. The correct question is would Shepard and Cerberus do it. I would say absolutely they would.

I see it as out of character, for starters TIM isn't stupid. yeah he takes risks, but if there was a better simpler option, i'm pretty sure he'd take it.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
1) Its in the galactic core. In a briefing we've already theorized there is a station there with unbelievably powerful mass effect fields. That seems like quite the prize.

Which you only found out after you learn about the reaper IFF, after you've spent ages building up a squad.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
2) We have some of the technology - a gun capable of equally the firepower of a cruiser. Cruiser firepower is ineffective against Reapers.

And were in the process of studying another reaper ourselves, why is Collector Tech more important than that?

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
3) We know the answers to the missing colonists are there. We strongly suspect there is a base there capable of generating a mass effect field so powerful that it can survive unimaginably intense radiation and gravity.

Answer to missing colonists is on the Collector Ship. How can we possibly suspect that, we have so little information, that for all we know the only reason the collectors use the Omega 4 relay is to get out of everyones range. and knowing that they go to the the galactic core is only after you've been on their ship, after you'd already planned to go on this suicide mission.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
We were on the Collector ship. TIM pretty ruthlessly tricked us onto there to gather intel on the Collectors - not the safe course of action. You really think a guy like this would elect to camp the Omega-4 relay?

To me that's like trying to explain one plot hole with another.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
And whether we would elect to save more lives - TIM wouldn't. I really don't have to go into Cerberus's history, do I?

I never said TIM wasn't against risking peoples lives, but there was never better options staring him in the face.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
They had no idea what was on Ilos but he thought nothing of plunging in. 

Thats different Shepard knew enough about what was happening to justify going to Ilos.
1) We know Saren's there.
2)We know the Conduits there
3)We know if Saren uses the Conduit the Reapers come back.

what do we KNOW about the Collectors when we decide to go on this suicide mission
1)That they are collecting human colonies
2)That they have a ship
3)That they go through the Omega 4 relay
4)That TIM thinks they work for the Reapers.

And on that you Suspect they have a base, with amazing technology that beats even a dead reaper, that the only way to find out what they are doing is on this Suspected base.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
There are two kinds of people, those who play to win and those who play not to lose. Shepard clearly plays to win. 
Confident? Insane? Up to you. But again, don't ask what you would do but ask what Shepard would do.

I still maintain that camping the relay would be huge plot hole.

It seems like your missing the point. Given the information the Characters have through out the game, there is no reason to go through the relay! there is no reason to gather an elite group of Soldiers!
They do these things based upon knowledge they can't possibly have!

Modifié par wulf3n, 29 juillet 2010 - 05:21 .

[Whatever42]

I see it as out of character, for starters TIM isn't stupid. yeah he takes risks, but if there was a better simpler option, i'm pretty sure he'd take it.

This is the TIM who tricked you into a Collector trap? This is the Shepard who railed against not sending a fleet against Ilos, into a completely unknown situation, almost guaranteed to start a war? These desperate men. Or nuts. And its not stupid to launch an attack through the relay. You can always blockade it later. So a few thousand more colonists get grabbed, do you think that would disuade TIM?

But if you see TIM as a cautious, calculating man, we'll have to agree to disagree.

1) Which you only found out after you learn about the reaper IFF, after you've spent ages building up a squad.

Very true. But we only learn that the collectors likely only have one ship slightly earlier in the game as well. So as the attractiveness of camping the relay goes up so does the attractiveness of continuing through the relay.

Besides, they know the Collectors come from beyond the relay. I really don't think its unreasonable for them to believe that the Collectors have some sort of base or homeworld there.

2)And were in the process of studying another reaper ourselves, why is Collector Tech more important than that?

I believe that Reaper wiped out the research team and was crushed inside a star. But why would that make finding out the Reaper plans by going through the relay less attractive?

Answer to missing colonists is on the Collector Ship. How can we possibly suspect that, we have so little information, that for all we know the only reason the collectors use the Omega 4 relay is to get out of everyones range. and knowing that they go to the the galactic core is only after you've been on their ship, after you'd already planned to go on this suicide mission.

We know they come and go from the relay and are likely based on the other side. I'll admit that until the IFF, we didn't know that the base was so damn attractive. However, Shepard and TIM are pretty big risk takers.

To me that's like trying to explain one plot whole with another.

I don't think so. Remember, for it to be a plot hole, it would have to be out of character for TIM and Shepard. Examining their past actions help us understand their character.

I never said TIM wasn't against risking peoples lives, but there was never better options staring him in the face.

I could be wrong but I still get the sense that we're debating what you think is the better course of action. All we need to really decide, to determine whether this is a plot hole, is whether going through the relay would be out of character for TIM and Shepard, given the alternatives and requires further narration. TIM cares nothing for lives if he thinks even the possibility of a reasonable reward is present. 

Thats different Shepard knew enough about what was happening to justify going to Ilos.
1) We know Saren's there.
2)We know the Conduits there
3)We know if Saren uses the Conduit the Reapers come back.. 

1) We didn't know how many forces he had
2) We still didn't know what the conduit was or how it summoned the Reapers
3) Yup, true. 

I'll concede that launching an attack through the Omega 4 relay is likely a bigger risk. Your point. However, I contend that it still demonstrates Shepard is a pretty aggressive guy. He was chanting attack attack attack pretty much the whole game.

It seems like your missing the point. Given the information the Characters have through out the game, there is no reason to go through the relay! there is no reason to gather an elite group of Soldiers!
They do these things based upon knowledge they can't possibly have!

I disagree. I believe the motivation is strongly present.

TIM knows that the reapers are coming and will certainly destroy all organic life in the galaxy. He knows the collectors are working for the reapers and are up to something, likely something important considering how blatantly they're acting. He knows that they have advanced technology. He knows that they come from beyond the Omega 4 Relay.

Based on his past history, I can see plainly that he acts very aggressively. I can see that he is perfectly willing to expend human lives in the pursuit of his goals. I can see that he regards gathering technology and information as exceedingly important.

He wants to know what is going on and what he can gain from it. He also wants to put a stop to what is going on. We know this because he said so.

Now, if you focus strictly on the last sentence then perhaps you could arguing that going through the relay is out of character. However, if you examine his motivations and history, its pretty plain that sending a mission through the relay would be perfectly acceptable to him. He can blockade it later if it would help. But why tip off the collectors that something is up until you've launched your attack.

Yet again, for it not to be a plot hole, it simply has to be a believable course of action. I fail to see how you can think that it would be out of character for TIM or Shepard to launch an attack through the relay in preference to camping it. If you can't see that, we must obviously view TIM and Shepard very differently.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 29 juillet 2010 - 05:46 .

[Spornicus]

Saying this is a plothole is like saying it's a plothole that Frodo walked to Middle Earth instead of being flown there by eagles, or the Death Star appearing anywhere but the far side of Yavin, or the gods just smashing the walls of Troy that would end the Trojan Wars quickly, or Dumbledore just killing Voldemort at the first sign of him being evil, or James Bond just shooting every villian right when he meets them, or Vito Corleone killing the herion dealer when he got suspicious.



Basically, these "plotholes" are just parts of the game you don't like or you think could be fixed with boring, simple logic. It's not a plothole, it's plot. It's what is used drive the form of media forward, so a story could be told.

[wulf3n]

[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
This is the Shepard who railed against not sending a fleet against Ilos, into a completely unknown situation, almost guaranteed to start a war? These desperate men. Or nuts. And its not stupid to launch an attack through the relay. You can always blockade it later. So a few thousand more colonists get grabbed, do you think that would disuade TIM?[/quote]

Did he have a better option right in front of him? The reason Shepard was against the "defending" of the citadel was it would be pointless if the reapers came back, not that he likes running into dangerous situations.  



[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
But if you see TIM as a cautious, calculating man, we'll have to agree to disagree.[/quote]
I never said cautious. But calculating yes! very!

[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Very true. But we only learn that the collectors likely only have one ship slightly earlier in the game as well. So as the attractiveness of camping the relay goes up so does the attractiveness of continuing through the relay.[/quote]

Potentially jumping into the middle of a collector fleet is attractive? 


[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Besides, they know the Collectors come from beyond the relay. I really don't think its unreasonable for them to believe that the Collectors have some sort of base or homeworld there.[/quote]

Of course not, they could very well have a base, but is it worth going through there just to find out? when trying to disable and/or capture their ship would be a much easier task, considering you have no idea about their defenses, or fleet strength!


[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
I believe that Reaper wiped out the research team and was crushed inside a star. But why would that make finding out the Reaper plans by going through the relay less attractive?[/quote]

Whats a single research team to Cerberus anyway, they chew through them like scooby doo and scooby snacks. And why was the reaper crushed in a star? oh thats right because shepard and his team set foot on board! wait? why didn't the Cerberus science team set off this very same trap? did we touch anything? no! maybe Legion did it?but then wouldn't he have said something! maybe the reaper just knew it was shepard, even though its been dead for 37 million years. hmmmmm *cough* plothole *cough*


[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

We know they come and go from the relay and are likely based on the other side. I'll admit that until the IFF, we didn't know that the base was so damn attractive. [/quote]

Or that we could even reach a base they may have!


[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
I don't think so. Remember, for it to be a plot hole, it would have to be out of character for TIM and Shepard. Examining their past actions help us understand their character. [/quote]

To me for that decision to be in character TIM would have to have the tactical genius of a Vorcha, and Shepard to have the perceptive abilities of a gold fish.



[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
I could be wrong but I still get the sense that we're debating what you think is the better course of action. All we need to really decide, to determine whether this is a plot hole, is whether going through the relay would be out of character for TIM and Shepard, given the alternatives and requires further narration. [/quote]

I'm debating that the decisions they made were based upon their knowledge of the ME2 script, and not what any of them would have done given the information they actually had.

[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
1) We didn't know how many forces he had
2) We still didn't know what the conduit was or how it summoned the Reapers
3) Yup, true. [/quote]

1)The fate of the galaxy depended on us stopping Saren! He could have had the entire Geth army there, that wouldn't have stopped us going. It may have stopped us from succeeding.
2)No we didn't but we knew that the Conduit was the key to bringing back the reapers, Based upon what Saren, Benezia, and Sovereign say, and that's enough reason to try and stop him.

[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
I'll concede that launching an attack through the Omega 4 relay is likely a bigger risk. Your point. However, I contend that it still demonstrates Shepard is a pretty aggressive guy. He was chanting attack attack attack pretty much the whole game.[/quote]

Except for the very start of the game, where he was happy to patrol up and down the terminus systems for days looking for geth, with no success, even though the reapers were the bigger threat!

[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Yet again, for it not to be a plot hole, it simply has to be a believable course of action. I fail to see how you can think that it would be out of character for TIM or Shepard to launch an attack through the relay in preference to camping it. If you can't see that, we must obviously view TIM and Shepard very differently.[/quote]

Why attack a base that may or may not exist? that may or may not have impenetrable defenses? that may or may not have a fleet of ships protecting it?
Why gather a group of ground warfare specialists when all you know about your enemy is that they have 1 ship?  

Modifié par wulf3n, 29 juillet 2010 - 06:20 .

[wulf3n]

Spornicus wrote...
Saying this is a plothole is like saying it's a plothole that Frodo walked to Middle Earth instead of being flown there by eagles,

A great way to get spotted by the people trying to kill you with flying dragons!

Spornicus wrote...
or the Death Star appearing anywhere but the far side of Yavin, 

Added for dramatic effect, not really a plot hole, as the death stars angle of attack would depend on its location when discovering the rebel base is on Yavin 4.

Spornicus wrote...
or the gods just smashing the walls of Troy that would end the Trojan Wars quickly, 

What makes you think the Gods wanted the greeks to win? from what i gathered from the Greek gods is that ultimately they don't really care too much about mortals, and mortal affairs, unless of course they want to mess with them.

Spornicus wrote...
or Dumbledore just killing Voldemort at the first sign of him being evil,

So you'd kill a kid just because he seems evil?

Spornicus wrote...
 or James Bond just shooting every villian right when he meets them,

Rarely has the chance to kill the villain when he firsts meets them, if he even knows they're the villain.

Spornicus wrote...
or Vito Corleone killing the herion dealer when he got suspicious.

I have no idea who that is

[Spornicus]

The point is these are not plotholes, they're plot. If you nitpick every single little action in the game/movie/book/WHATEVER, you might as well not have fiction. EVER.



Oh, and your explanation of the death star has contradicted EVERYTHING everyone has said about plotholes. Don't you think that ANYTHING in ME2 is for dramatic effect? Or is it a stupid video game with plotholes?



And the gods intervened ALL THE TIME in the Trojan Wars, did you even read the Iliad?



Just shut up. You're all ****ing idiots and obviously can't comprehend fiction.

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

Spornicus wrote...

The point is these are not plotholes, they're plot. If you nitpick every single little action in the game/movie/book/WHATEVER, you might as well not have fiction. EVER.

Oh, and your explanation of the death star has contradicted EVERYTHING everyone has said about plotholes. Don't you think that ANYTHING in ME2 is for dramatic effect? Or is it a stupid video game with plotholes?

And the gods intervened ALL THE TIME in the Trojan Wars, did you even read the Iliad?

Just shut up. You're all ****ing idiots and obviously can't comprehend fiction.

Wise words, wise words indeed.

[wulf3n]

Spornicus wrote...
Oh, and your explanation of the death star has contradicted EVERYTHING everyone has said about plotholes. Don't you think that ANYTHING in ME2 is for dramatic effect? Or is it a stupid video game with plotholes? 

There's a difference, and i envy you for not being able to see them.

Spornicus wrote...
Just shut up. You're all ****ing idiots and obviously can't comprehend fiction.

Relax, it's just a forum, if you keep up like this your gonna get an ulcer.

[Whatever42]

[quote]Did he have a better option right in front of him? The reason Shepard was against the "defending" of the citadel was it would be pointless if the reapers came back, not that he likes running into dangerous situations.  ?[/quote]

Defending is not a better option, simply a different option. 



[quote]I never said cautious. But calculating yes! very!.
[/quote]

TIM is recklessly aggressive. I point to husks, rachni, overlord, bringing back Shepard, Thorian creeper, biotics experimentation. And he shows little concern for human life.

Launching an attack through the relay would certainly fit that pattern.


[quote]Potentially jumping into the middle of a collector fleet is attractive? [/quote]

Camping a fixed position when the Collectors have resources already behind your lines is attractive? 

[quote]Of course not, they could very well have a base, but is it worth going through there just to find out? when trying to disable and/or capture their ship would be a much easier task, considering you have no idea about their defenses, or fleet strength![/quote]

This is true. However, if they did have massive fleet strength then camping the relay is far more dangerous than going through the relay. They would just secure it on this side and completely cut off an offensive strike.

Besides, ships that went through the relay required an IFF or faced certain destruction. Its unlikely you tie a fleet up protecting a relay that had never been breeched.

[quote]Whats a single research team to Cerberus anyway, they chew through them like scooby doo and scooby snacks. And why was the reaper crushed in a star? oh thats right because shepard and his team set foot on board! wait? why didn't the Cerberus science team set off this very same trap? did we touch anything? no! maybe Legion did it?but then wouldn't he have said something! maybe the reaper just knew it was shepard, even though its been dead for 37 million years. hmmmmm *cough* plothole *cough*[/quote]

I'm not going to debate that "plot hole" at this time. But your argument supports going through the relay as well. Why wouldn't TIM send through a team?

[quote]Or that we could even reach a base they may have!. [/quote]

Again, its a pretty safe assumption they had a base of operations. 

[quote]To me for that decision to be in character TIM would have to have the tactical genius of a Vorcha, and Shepard to have the perceptive abilities of a gold fish.[/quote]

Personally, I think TIMs recklessness and arrogance is not productive in achieving his goals. However, it is his established character. And this is the same Shepard who did a suicidal drop onto Ilos simply because Joker said he could pull it off.

[quote]I'm debating that the decisions they made were based upon their knowledge of the ME2 script, and not what any of them would have done given the information they actually had.. [/quote]

And I disagree. I think they had more than enough motivation to be aggressive and that defensive strategy  is a temporary solution at best  against the collectors and no strategy at all against the Reapers.

[quote]1)The fate of the galaxy depended on us stopping Saren! He could have had the entire Geth army there, that wouldn't have stopped us going. It may have stopped us from succeeding.
2)No we didn't but we knew that the Conduit was the key to bringing back the reapers, Based upon what Saren, Benezia, and Sovereign say, and that's enough reason to try and stop him. [/quote]

We had no idea how the Reapers destroyed the Protheans or how Saren was going to use the conduit. Sending the Citadel fleet into the middle of the Terminus system, to face both the geth and the Terminus deziens might get the fleet wiped out and ensure the victory of the Reapers. It was still a very aggressive move. 

[quote]Except for the very start of the game, where he was happy to patrol up and down the terminus systems for days looking for geth, with no success, even though the reapers were the bigger threat![/quote]

Given his speech at the end of ME1 and the text at the start of the game, I doubt Shepard was happy. He just had no other course of action.

[quote]Why attack a base that may or may not exist? that may or may not have impenetrable defenses? that may or may not have a fleet of ships protecting it?
Why gather a group of ground warfare specialists when all you know about your enemy is that they have 1 ship?  
[/quote]

Again, I think its very likely for Cerberus to assume a Collector base and equally as reasonable that the collectors wouldn't station a fleet at the relay, given that its been impeneratable up to now. And we had no idea how many ships they had - we didn't discover the possibility of there only being 1 until we boarded and scanned the records of the Collector ship.

But at this point we're doing little but repeating ourselves so I'm going to bow out. 

I will repeat one thing: for it to really be a plot hole, it needs to be relevant. Considering that no one commented on this "plot hole" (versus, for example, Shepard's resurrection) strongly suggests that a mission through the relay didn't cause any double takes and didn't seem out of character to the large majority of players. 

Further, if we were to define this as a plot hole then there is not a single piece of fiction anywhere that is not completely rife with plot holes and the term becomes meaningless and we might as well just abandon it.

But thanks for a fun debate! Its nice to argue with someone without name calling crawling into it.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 29 juillet 2010 - 06:37 .

[wulf3n]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
TIM is recklessly aggressive. I point to husks, rachni, overlord, bringing back Shepard, Thorian creeper, biotics experimentation. And he shows little concern for human life.

Launching an attack through the relay would certainly fit that pattern.

Agreed...if there wasn't other options that made more sense right in front of him.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Camping a fixed position when the Collectors have resources already behind your lines is attractive? 

No but it's the best option we have given the current intel, and the other options, chase an enemy you can't track, or jump right into their headquarters without any knowledge of whats there.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Again, its a pretty safe assumption they had a base of operations. 

But not that you'd have the ability to reach it alive!

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Personally, I think TIMs recklessness and arrogance is not productive in achieving his goals. However, it is his established character.  

What goal has he not achieved? His methods may cost many lives but they always achieve something.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
And this is the same Shepard who did a suicidal drop onto Ilos simply because Joker said he could pull it off.

What other choice did Shepard have?

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
And I disagree. I think they had more than enough motivation to be aggressive and that defensive strategy  is a temporary solution at best  against the collectors and no strategy at all against the Reapers.

So why spend most of your time building up ground forces when you don't know what enemy forces you will be facing?

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
We had no idea how the Reapers destroyed the Protheans or how Saren was going to use the conduit. Sending the Citadel fleet into the middle of the Terminus system, to face both the geth and the Terminus deziens might get the fleet wiped out and ensure the victory of the Reapers. It was still a very aggressive move.

Saren said: "The victory on eden prime brought us one step closer to finding the conduit"
Benezia said: "And one step closer to the return of the Reapers"
Shepard concluded that the Conduit must have something to do with the reapers return. The Reapers Destroyed the Protheans, and Liara believes even more before that.  You don't want them back no matter what their plan or how they did it. 

Shepard thought risking a war, is justified, when it comes to saving the galaxy, though the council didn't

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Given his speech at the end of ME1 and the text at the start of the game, I doubt Shepard was happy. He just had no other course of action.

He's a Spectre he can do what he wants!

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Again, I think its very likely for Cerberus to assume a Collector base and equally as reasonable that the collectors wouldn't station a fleet at the relay, given that its been impeneratable up to now.

why not? what do you really know of the collectors, that allows you to critically analyse their military strength?

Modifié par wulf3n, 29 juillet 2010 - 07:06 .

[smudboy]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
I don't know how you can live with yourself then. But again, insults simply mean you've surrendered the point.

Believe me, I don't go to bed crying over whatever Whatever23492304 wrote.  Just not me, man.

Thats a pretty big assumption. I would even say it would be a plot hole.

You still don't know what a plot hole is.

Cerberus only has one of these ships. Camping the relay with it means not going through the relay with it. It means the ship is sitting in the system and we know Collector technology can detect it. It means its vulnerable to attack. It would be silly to try to hold a fixed position with the Normandy.

1. Safer
2. Good.
3. It also means the Collectors are vulernable eto attack.
4. There's no reason why it would be silly?  What are you talking about?  Because it can be attacked?  Um, welcome to war, my friend.

You arguing that its a potential course of action. However, its not a plot hole if its not the obviously superior course of action. I would argue that camping the relay would be a plot hole because it would be deeply out of character for both TIM and Shepard, who have both proven themselves very aggressive in pursuit of the enemy. Remember Shepard's reaction to the defensive posture of the Council in ME1?

You are an idiot.

-(e.g. "I've tried everything I can think of..." to keep critics from asking why a particular action was not taken).
-Characters ignoring or avoiding obvious solutions to their problems, provided those solutions are obvious to the characters, and not just the viewers.

Superiority is irrelevant.  Although I'd argue it's simpler, more efficient and safer, and thus superior, but you won't, because you don't know what a plot hole is.

I am not suggesting that camping the relay is not a viable course of action. I am suggesting it is not a plot hole because its not clearly the best course of action. Further, it would be out of character.

Read above.  You don't know what a plot hole is.

Out of character?  TIM will do whatever it takes to win.  Mining/putting up spy satellites/watching a point in space ...this has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the character of an individual.  You are grasping, and now you've been taught what a plot hole is.  I now consider you an enlightened individual.

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

smudboy wrote...


-(e.g. "I've tried everything I can think of..." to keep critics from asking why a particular action was not taken).
-Characters ignoring or avoiding obvious solutions to their problems, provided those solutions are obvious to the characters, and not just the viewers.

Did you write the article on plot holes on Wikipedia or is that just your source?