131 réponses à ce sujet

[gotthammer]

I kinda started to lose interest in ASOIAF due to the amount of time in-between books. There was a time I even played the collectible card game made by Fantasy Flight Games, but I think that only made me yearn for more material.

I just hope the Greyjoys win. Asha for queen!

For dark Fantasy, I'd also recommend giving some of Black Library's stuff a try (Warhammer Fantasy setting). Howard's Conan was also nice (read up on it while waiting for AoC, which was disappointing). Oh, and Sapkowski's 'The Last Wish' and 'Blood of Elves' were also quite good.

Modifié par gotthammer, 22 octobre 2009 - 09:04 .

[B_Harrison]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Dragon Age Origins may be mature fantasy, it may be dark, it may sometimes be offensive, but it is, above all, heroic. Bad things happen along the way, but it's all in the name of the journey to defeat the big bad. There are triumphs and periods of happiness, of accomplishment, and a sense that the world is joining you in repelling this great evil. A Song of Ice and Fire enjoys wallowing in despair and helplessness.

And I'm really, really glad BioWare took DA:O in that direction (if the darker direction was ever an option), although I will argue that ASoIaF's heroic and fantastical moments are all the more so because of its setting-

---- BOOK SPOILERS! ----

- Jaime rescuing Brienne from the bear pit, Daenerys walking into the fire/putting down Astapor, Arya/Jaqen's "three deaths," Jon and Ghost with/against the Wildlings, the Others... But yeah, I think you guys have struck just the right balance for the purposes of an RPG.

[KethWolfheart]

thheNO wrote...

For all of you who like ASOIAF, check out The Black Company by Glen Cook. It's dark(but not as much as A song....) and have real sorcery in them. The ook itself is written in a biographical style, and more and more history/background is revealed through the book.

Now those are some good books, enjoyed them much better than Martin's.  Not that Game of Thrones is bad, but I not that high on my list.

[LdyShayna]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Dragon Age Origins may be mature fantasy, it may be dark, it may sometimes be offensive, but it is, above all, heroic. Bad things happen along the way, but it's all in the name of the journey to defeat the big bad. There are triumphs and periods of happiness, of accomplishment, and a sense that the world is joining you in repelling this great evil. A Song of Ice and Fire enjoys wallowing in despair and helplessness.

Which is why I'm looking forward to Dragon Age, but have no interest whatsoever in A Song of Ice and Fire.

[Aurvan]

gotthammer wrote...

For dark Fantasy, I'd also recommend giving some of Black Library's stuff a try (Warhammer Fantasy setting). Howard's Conan was also nice (read up on it while waiting for AoC, which was disappointing). Oh, and Sapkowski's 'The Last Wish' and 'Blood of Elves' were also quite good.

I've always been a fan of Howard's Conan (not so much the generic Conan comics), and I wish there was more material. Even though Conan is a survivor, and you kind of know that he will always come out on top, there is always something more powerful than him, something that freezes the blood in his veins, and all he can do is run and never look back. What I like about Conan is that he is a survivor, not a hero. Do whatever you can to survive, and after you do, live life to the fullest for as long as it lasts (which might not be long in the Hyborian Age.

And Age of Conan was the biggest disappointment of 2008. I couldn't believe that they were making a game set to the Hyborian Age, and was following the development from the beginning. When it came out, I played it for the free month, then never returned.

[Red Viking]

I heard this series was very depressing.

[Chris Ratcliffe]

It has its moments where you will swear and throw the book accross the room and you won;t want to pick them up again for days because your so upset, but then you do pick them up and you keep reading because they are just that good. Hopefully with the the 5th book Dance with Dragons coming out next year (fingers crossed) things will start to take a more upward hopeful trend.

[Malvicus]

I love ASOIAF. Yes, the world is very dark. It certainly has its moments where you're cheering for the good guys. Just as someone had just mentioned earlier, the happier moments tend to shine even brighter because of the dark setting. But I'm willing to bet that everything will end on a good note... of course, I'm sure we'll suffer more losses to get to that end. It will still be worth it! The last thing we want is everything to be all nice and tidy... I can take a bittersweet ending as long its light on the bitter.

Modifié par Malvicus, 23 octobre 2009 - 02:10 .

[OwenM]

Personally, I prefer the Malazan books by quite a margin. AND, Erikson is at his 9th book out of 10, and he writes one a year, despite them being all 800-1000 pages, and detailed as hell. Engaging plot, interesting, diverse cast (which is large, but not as large in terms of developed characters as ASoIaF), a somewhat unique take on magic (extended elements-based, but with the addition of the fact that the sources of power - Warrens - are actually physical locations as well, etc), and great combat. Tragic, and dark, though not as brutal in terms of the children/rape/sex as ASoIaF, probably more so in regards to general violence, in places. But also not completely sad. Oh, and yes, major characters die.





Now, as for A Dance with Dragons...it was due out this September. Now it's predicted to come out next September. He isn't going to finish it soon, that's for sure, if ever. Which sucks.

The man spends more time blogging, tripping around, and defending the delay than he does writing. Which is fair enough for him - he deserves a life, too, and can afford it...but he also has a very annoyed fanbase, and is essentially procrastinating, imo.



Glad of the influence it's had on DAO, however. Can't wait to see the results of that!

[Teron]

Loved the beginnig of ASoIaF but it got old and predictable in its unpredictabillity. Someone does seomthing good/Great? Oh thats gonna hurt later on. Real life is depressing enough where bad things happpen to good people, I am reading Fantasy because the good people can actually make a difference. And GRRM is really punishing the reader for investing in his characters or hoping for good things. Also It got so confusing and changing directions all the time I start to think he started out with good intenentions but never thought it would be this succesfull. Now it is and he has to finish something he is not capable of handling and has no idea where to take to. So it gets more and more of a mess as he makes things up on the spot with no aim or end in sight. I will wait untill it is finished to pick it up again. /rant

Thanks for the other book suggestions, I may have to have a look.

Modifié par Teron, 23 octobre 2009 - 08:13 .

[Foxd1e]

Chris Ratcliffe wrote...

It has its moments where you will swear and throw the book accross the room and you won;t want to pick them up again for days because your so upset, but then you do pick them up and you keep reading because they are just that good. Hopefully with the the 5th book Dance with Dragons coming out next year (fingers crossed) things will start to take a more upward hopeful trend.

Kind of like a certain cruel beheading in a cathedral at the behest of a boy-king?

[Irisenne]

Foxd1e wrote...

Kind of like a certain cruel beheading in a cathedral at the behest of a boy-king?

I was more upset about Eddard, really didn't see it coming and felt like "Nooo, why would you do this? Why??"  

Many more of those followed throughout the series.

[jackal912]

I liked SoIaF fairly well, but for some reason I couldn't /stand/ Malazan - It's so bloated with characters and events that it's collapsing into a pile of confusion under it's own weight, and it takes the 'dark and grittiness' to an obnoxious extreme - All the wars and such are happening for ultimately bland and vague reasons - pulled out of nowhere to give an excuse for more Dark And Gritty war scenes, he switches the entire cast of main characters every other book because he's so busy killing them off that it isn't even a surprise if they die after a point, and apparently the series looks like it's leading torwards a massive downer ending, where what few even remotely likable main characters will be killed off futiley too. It's possible to take wallowing in Dark And Grittiness WAY too far, and it seems like he has.

Modifié par jackal912, 23 octobre 2009 - 09:08 .

[soteria]

Spoilers ahead.

I was more upset about Eddard, really didn't see it coming and felt like "Nooo, why would you do this? Why??"

Really? I had written him off about 2/3 of the way through the book. He was a nice guy, but he dug his own grave, and then just dug deeper. I felt more sad about the consequences to Arya than his death. Really, Tyrion and Arya and maybe Jon Snow are the only chapters I genuinely enjoy reading. Well, Jaime grew on me.

I doubt we'll see Dance this year. He still has a lot of characters' stories to finish, and that doesn't even count his own editing and sending it up for review and more revision. I enjoyed the first couple books--for me the darker tone was a nice step away from more "mainstream" epic fantasy. Same as others, though, with so many characters, it's unfortunate that I only enjoy reading about two or three. Bad things happen to "heroes," but in almost every case they were heroes I didn't like or care about. Say what you will about Robert Jordan's writing, but at least he still had me interested after four books.

Finally, one thing I disagree with Martin on is graphic sex in books. His claim is it's no different than putting graphic violence in books--if we can tolerate that, it's hypocritical to be intolerant of graphic sex. I disagree, because sex, whatever moral stance you take on it, is very intimate. If, God forbid, I ever had to kill someone, and someone caught that on camera and aired it, I would generally have no problem with that, depending on the circumstances. I can't think of a time when it would be OK for someone to film me having sex with my wife and airing that. One thing I appreciate about other authors is the lower sexual content, therefore. I have no problem with people having sex or even people writing about it, but it's not something I want to read about.

I also debated picking up the next Drizzt installment The Ghost King but Salvatore has really come a long way since his first Drizzt book and unfortunantely it's been mostly downhill not up, or maybe I just grew out of his writing.

Hah! You had me going for the first half of this sentence... "Wait, Salvatore has come a long way? Eh?" Yeah, I'm not sure if the quality has gone downhill or it's just that he's remained static.

Modifié par soteria, 23 octobre 2009 - 09:21 .

[thheNO]

It isn't Dark Fantasy, but you could also check out Robin Hobb's "Farseer Triology" and Stephen King's "The Black Tower"(or something like that, since I've read the norwegian version). Both are good books, althought they lose some quality at the end of the series(Robin Hobb and the third book of Stephen King).



If you want classical fantasy, you could check out Raymond E. Feist's "Riftwar Saga", the first five books are good reading, althought not exeptional. The writing is kinda simple in my taste; I'm afraid that I've outgrown it

[Chris Ratcliffe]

Foxd1e wrote...

Chris Ratcliffe wrote...

It has its moments where you will swear and throw the book accross the room and you won;t want to pick them up again for days because your so upset, but then you do pick them up and you keep reading because they are just that good. Hopefully with the the 5th book Dance with Dragons coming out next year (fingers crossed) things will start to take a more upward hopeful trend.

Kind of like a certain cruel beheading in a cathedral at the behest of a boy-king?

Actually I was thinking more about a certain Red Wedding - that previous moment was bad - but the wedding was worse with all the forboding and dark hints and Mayhaps that led up to it.

[Sheylan]

I'm not sure if it's Exactly dark fantasy, but it is very fricken dark. The Night Angel trilogy by Brent Weeks. Just to give you a taste... The main character is a 12 year old who is a member of a childs street gang in a rather horrible slum. After his best friend is sodomized by his guildmaster's enforcer, a "wetboy" (think, assasin, but with magic. "Assasins have targets, because sometimes they miss. Wetboys have deaders, because when we take a contract, the rest of their brief lives is a formality.") agrees to take Azoth on as an aprentice if he kills the enforcer(Remember, he is TWELVE). Needless too say, he does, albeit with some stumbling blocks. The first book continues with more murder, one EXTREMELY brief war, and lots of tragedy (most of which gets resolved in the next two novels).

Night Angel Trilogy.

Modifié par Sheylan, 24 octobre 2009 - 05:30 .

[OwenM]

jackal912 wrote...

I liked SoIaF fairly well, but for some reason I couldn't /stand/ Malazan - It's so bloated with characters and events that it's collapsing into a pile of confusion under it's own weight, and it takes the 'dark and grittiness' to an obnoxious extreme - All the wars and such are happening for ultimately bland and vague reasons - pulled out of nowhere to give an excuse for more Dark And Gritty war scenes, he switches the entire cast of main characters every other book because he's so busy killing them off that it isn't even a surprise if they die after a point, and apparently the series looks like it's leading torwards a massive downer ending, where what few even remotely likable main characters will be killed off futiley too. It's possible to take wallowing in Dark And Grittiness WAY too far, and it seems like he has.

Ah, well, the point of the confusion for some events is that you're not supposed to know. People lie, not everyone agrees that certain things happened one way...just like real life. For some reason, most fantasy books have the horrible tendency that everyone believes a certain side of a story/history/whatever, and no characters ever contradict each other.

However, I thought that Erikson, though he makes it very complex, managed to keep both the order of events and the interactions between events and characters very clear. The wars aren't happening for vague reasons, in fact of the four that have been shown so far, two have reasons which are gone into very deeply - the Seven Cities rebellion and the Pannion war are both centrepieces, and explained in detail, while the Genabackan campaign is obviously one of conquest and the war in Letheras one of retribution....

And the casts of characters do come together eventually, and stabilize quite a bit.

Anyway, to each his own, I suppose. Personally, I can't get enough of the damn series. XD

[YouBet96]

As I have gotten older my attention span has greatly waned. I would think it would usually be the reverse. I gave up on Jordan's WoT after book 8 because of the incessant descriptions of women pulling on their braids as they argued with men. And the absolute non-advancement of the plot. It just pissed me off to no end.



I've read all of ASOIF up until the last book. I own it but I haven't started it yet because frankly I think I'm going to have to restart the series to remember everything plus I'm concerned it's going in the exact same direction as WoT from what I read online.



Just started Malazan. Somehow never heard of it until earlier this year when I ran across it in an airport. I like the fact that he's writing at a strong pace but also have the fear that it's just overkill.



I recently read through most of The Black Company by Cook and that is just plain kickass fantasy. Howevr, I'm having trouble finding the later novels i.e. The Glittering Stones part of the series.

[Sheylan]

YouBet96 wrote...

As I have gotten older my attention span has greatly waned. I would think it would usually be the reverse. I gave up on Jordan's WoT after book 8 because of the incessant descriptions of women pulling on their braids as they argued with men. And the absolute non-advancement of the plot. It just pissed me off to no end.

 

At least one person agrees with me.

But I think Brandon Sanderson will make it muuuuuuch better.

[Tamyn]

TeleProd wrote...

I found out about A Song of Ice and Fire through Dragon Age a few years back. I decided to read the series and it is great indeed!

I did too! I started reading them because people on the BioWare forums talked about them so much.

[dtking3]

Yah, dark fantasy and anti-heroes can be quite compelling as literary styles and figures in their own rights (e.g., Elric). But that series pissed me off -- I didn't realize it was "dark fantasy" until major characters started to die!

[Aurvan]

Firstly, someone mentioned that there was graphic sex in the books. Personally I don't react to that at all. And as it is a much more common occurance than murder, it would be strange if it was never mentioned that anyone had sex. And the sex scenes in ASoIaF are vaguely described at best. Compare it to a book about ancient Rome without mentioning sex, orgies or prostitution, it wouldn't make sense. I kind of think of the "Rome" TV-series when I read the books, and I'm really looking forward to the TV-version of A game of thrones if it is anything like Rome.



Secondly, has anyone read "The name of the wind" by Patrick Rothfuss? A lot of people have recommended it, but as far as I understand, the story is the same old Mary-Sue, Harry Potter clone with "the chosen one" that for some reason is so much more awesome than anyone else. If that's the case, I'll stear clear.

[Maria Caliban]

Fulgrim88 wrote...

Nah, really. As much as antiheroes where a redemption after decades of perfect & invincible 'superheroes' (not necessarely in the marvel way), ASoIaF is a redemption after decades of 'you can't beat me cuz i'm morally superior'-Drizzt-Fantasy.

Execpt that fantasy has had antiheroes, darkness, and since...

Wait, isn't your name in reference to the cloak Severian wears in the Book of the New Sun series? No, wiki tells me that fuligin.

Damn, I had mentally given you a bunch of awesome points for that handle.

Aurvan wrote...

Secondly, has anyone read "The name of the wind" by Patrick Rothfuss? A lot of people have recommended it, but as far as I understand, the story is the same old Mary-Sue, Harry Potter clone with "the chosen one" that for some reason is so much more awesome than anyone else. If that's the case, I'll stear clear.

That’s a difficult one. Many people like that books and consider it a darker story. I find it bourgeois; it is attempting to be a classical, heroic story, it is attempting to be modern and ironic (it even has some meta-commentary), and it is attempting to be a darker story, but the writer hasn’t mastered any of these modes, let alone all of them.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 24 octobre 2009 - 01:38 .

[saphera55]

I've been trying to get my hands on a copy of these books for ever!