186 réponses à ce sujet

[joriandrake]

shepard_lives wrote...

Apparently, with the force of reason and logic we have managed to fend off the doomsayers. Well done, my friends.

it is called "time to sleep"

[Grommash94]

shepard_lives wrote...

Apparently, with the force of reason and logic we have managed to fend off the doomsayers. Well done, my friends.

Cookies for everyone? 

[Gill Kaiser]

shepard_lives wrote...

metal_dawn wrote...

It was said in a sense indicating that the name is uninventive, unoriginal, predictable, cliched. Milieu is the french term for middle, ie: average, center of the bell curve.

Oh, I'm sorry, It's been a couple years since I last studied French. I actually thought it meant "setting". the phrase gets kinda different with the wrong translation.

While it derives from the French for middle, It means background or environment. Just like "medium" can mean either "average" or "surrounding element".

[Divine Justinia V]

I agree with you on this, op.

The ONLY thing I'm less enthused about is the graphics, but I'm sure it's only because it's early in the game.

[Lucy Glitter]

Kordaris wrote...

David Gaider wrote...



People simply don't know the circumstances yet, and conjuring worst case scenarios is more fun to do on forums.

Yeah I even heard some silly guys claiming players won't have choice of creating their own characters with unique backstories like they had in DAO with dwarfs and elves. Such silliness:wizard:

Oooh, ouch.

[joriandrake]

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

Kordaris wrote...

David Gaider wrote...



People simply don't know the circumstances yet, and conjuring worst case scenarios is more fun to do on forums.

Yeah I even heard some silly guys claiming players won't have choice of creating their own characters with unique backstories like they had in DAO with dwarfs and elves. Such silliness:wizard:

Oooh, ouch.

yeah, that was a nice riposte

[errant_knight]

Look, I may think that a voiced protagonist is alienating, that the change from first to third person is a bad thing, and the new style is ugly, but I don't think that the writing team has suddenly lost their abilities. They write very good characters, and Hawke will be no exception. I see no reason to think that Hawke won't be an engaging character, or that the NPCs won't be as interesting as they were in DA:O. The writing is not a problem.

[Spawny]

Khayness wrote...

Bravely bold Ser Hawke rode forth from Lothering.
He was not afraid to die, O brave Ser Hawke!
He was not at all afraid to be killed in nasty ways,
Brave, brave, brave, brave Ser Hawke!

He was not in the least bit scared to be mashed into a pulp,
Or to have his eyes gouged out, and his elbows broken;
To have his kneecaps split, and his body burned away;
And his limbs all hacked and mangled, brave Ser Hawke!

His head smashed in and his heart cut out,
And his liver removed and his bowels unplugged,
And his nostrils raped and his bottom burned off,
And his pen--

I lol'ed hard with that one there is a Monty Python to suit every occasion

[phaonica]

tmp7704 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

The Ferelden Wardens wouldn't have been able to do anything without the help of people who stayed and fought. What about all the other solders and fighters in Ferelden? Why did they stay and fight? The Coward Theory is based on an interpretation that Hawke was able to fight and chose not to.

The people who fight with the Warden at the end of the game are professional soldiers (Eamon's army and Loghain's army as well as troops fielded by other arls/banns) and allies sworn to aid in the fight by ancient treaties.Who if you recall weren't actually planning to fight until these treaties were brought to them. There isn't exactly many random peasants participating in that battle.

I'd again argue that this theory is based on the interpretation that Hawke is not a random peasant, that he *could* have fought, that he had the training/ability/whatever and he *chose* not to.

I want to say that I don't necessarily support that this theory is correct, only that it is possible, given what little information we have. Someone could say that given what little information we have, Hawke could be a ballet dancer or whatever, and that might be true, but currently there is more support for the Coward Theory than some others.

And don't forget when people flee Lothering you'd need a crystal ball to know in advance there's going to be couple Wardens X months down the road (and that these Wardens aren't actually traitors like officially claimed) and that they'll require this kind of help. Because for all you know the king is dead, the army is crushed and the country is in full disarray. Heck, Denerim is supposedly packed to the brims and beyond with people who fleed from the approaching Blight and they aren't sitting there because they intend to help with fight but because that's as far as they can get away without a ship.

Some people, like me, who support the *possibility* of this theory in no way attribute his *possible* cowardice on his fleeing Lothering. It has nothing to do with Lothering. It has everything to do with fleeing Ferelden. If he is an able fighter, who chooses to save his own skin instead of joining the armies and fighting for his homeland, that is why some people are accusing him of being a coward. Again, we don't know if this is true, but it is possible. Some people are adopting this scenario as their "worst case scenario" as the example of why they don't want a single origin or voiced acting or whatever.

[In Exile]

phaonica wrote...
I'd again argue that this theory is based on the interpretation that Hawke is not a random peasant, that he *could* have fought, that he had the training/ability/whatever and he *chose* not to.

But even if that were true, that would not be sufficient for Hawke to be a coward. By definition, a coward is:

a person who lacks courage in facing danger,
difficulty, opposition, pain, etc.; a timid or easily intimidated
person.

But Hawke could have chosen not to fight for a variety of reasons, none of which are an absence of courage, timidity, or being easily intimidated.

For example, there could have been no profit in it, and Hawke might be mercenary like that.

Accusing someone of cowardice is making a claim about their mental state, and we just don't know enough to do it.

I want to say that I don't necessarily support that this theory is correct, only that it is possible, given what little information we have. Someone could say that given what little information we have, Hawke could be a ballet dancer or whatever, and that might be true, but currently there is more support for the Coward Theory than some others.

The theory isn't sufficient, even if we grant that Hawke is at the level where he could be slaying the archdemon but is too lazy to do it.

It has everything to do with fleeing Ferelden. If he is an able fighter, who chooses to save his own skin instead of joining the armies and fighting for his homeland, that is why some people are accusing him of being a coward.

But that is not what cowardice is. Being selfish is not the same as being a coward. If Hawke had some insane ploy whereby fleeing Ferelden he could later return and become Arl of Denerim or something, it wouldn't be a case where he was motivated by cowardice to leave Ferelden.

[kraidy1117]

The Warden also fled Lothering and let everyone die, so the Warden is also a coward.

[Captain Jazz]

phaonica wrote...

Some people, like me, who support the *possibility* of this theory in no way attribute his *possible* cowardice on his fleeing Lothering. It has nothing to do with Lothering. It has everything to do with fleeing Ferelden. If he is an able fighter, who chooses to save his own skin instead of joining the armies and fighting for his homeland, that is why some people are accusing him of being a coward. Again, we don't know if this is true, but it is possible. Some people are adopting this scenario as their "worst case scenario" as the example of why they don't want a single origin or voiced acting or whatever.

Of course, even if he is able to fight and defend Ferelden, he may be of the belief, similar to that of Loghain at Ostagar, that Ferelden is beyond saving and any hope of defeating the blight must come from forces raised outside of Ferelden. Not sure how likely that is though...

Modifié par Captain Jazz, 25 juillet 2010 - 02:33 .

[ScreamingPalm]

Khayness wrote...

Bravely bold Ser Hawke rode forth from Lothering.
He was not afraid to die, O brave Ser Hawke!
He was not at all afraid to be killed in nasty ways,
Brave, brave, brave, brave Ser Hawke!

He was not in the least bit scared to be mashed into a pulp,
Or to have his eyes gouged out, and his elbows broken;
To have his kneecaps split, and his body burned away;
And his limbs all hacked and mangled, brave Ser Hawke!

His head smashed in and his heart cut out,
And his liver removed and his bowels unplugged,
And his nostrils raped and his bottom burned off,
And his pen--

When danger reared its ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled...


lol I now have a first name for my Hawke!

Modifié par ScreamingPalm, 25 juillet 2010 - 02:47 .

[ScreamingPalm]

Double post

Modifié par ScreamingPalm, 25 juillet 2010 - 02:44 .

[tmp7704]

phaonica wrote...

I'd again argue that this theory is based on the interpretation that Hawke is not a random peasant, that he *could* have fought, that he had the training/ability/whatever and he *chose* not to.

I want to say that I don't necessarily support that this theory is correct, only that it is possible, given what little information we have. Someone could say that given what little information we have, Hawke could be a ballet dancer or whatever, and that might be true, but currently there is more support for the Coward Theory than some others.

Basically, this. What actual support is there for this theory Hawke is not a random, untrained nobody from Lothering that makes it more likely than him being a ballet dancer?

Some people, like me, who support the *possibility* of this theory in no way attribute his *possible* cowardice on his fleeing Lothering. It has nothing to do with Lothering. It has everything to do with fleeing Ferelden. If he is an able fighter, who chooses to save his own skin instead of joining the armies and fighting for his homeland, that is why some people are accusing him of being a coward.

I'll just point out Hawke has a family, and that family is apparently with them after they leave Lothering. There isn't exactly much of cowardice in choosing to protect one's own relatives over total strangers. And in fact. some of the player Wardens can't claim they did as much -- but instead, they left their own parents to die in burning castle. Was that also act of cowardice, or simple necessity?

[phaonica]

In Exile wrote...
Being selfish is not the same as being a coward.

Ok, yeah we're clearly using the word coward differently. I'm not saying that your definition is incorrect at all, just different from the way I was using it. This is from wikipedia:
"Cowards are usually seen to have avoided or refused to engage in a confrontation or struggle which has been deemed good or righteous by the wider culture in which they live. On a more mundane level, the label may be applied to those who are regarded as too frightened or overwhelmed to defend their rights or those of others from aggressors in their lives."

Modifié par phaonica, 25 juillet 2010 - 03:21 .

[Erebusd13]

I don't think there would be anything wrong with him being a straight coward in his flight...would certainly make him unique among most protagonists and somewhat interesting as well.

[phaonica]

tmp7704 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I'd again argue that this theory is based on the interpretation that Hawke is not a random peasant, that he *could* have fought, that he had the training/ability/whatever and he *chose* not to.

I want to say that I don't necessarily support that this theory is correct, only that it is possible, given what little information we have. Someone could say that given what little information we have, Hawke could be a ballet dancer or whatever, and that might be true, but currently there is more support for the Coward Theory than some others.

Basically, this. What actual support is there for this theory Hawke is not a random, untrained nobody from Lothering that makes it more likely than him being a ballet dancer?

I was referring to the quote that says Hawke didn't just survive the Blight, he fled from it. And the one that says that instead of choosing to stand and fight, he left Ferelden. One possible interpretation of these quotes is that he was able to fight but not willing. I haven't seen any quotes that I could interpret that Hawke is a ballet dancer. For all that this coward theory is unproven, it currently has more support than the ballet dancer theory, imo.

Some people, like me, who support the *possibility* of this theory in no way attribute his *possible* cowardice on his fleeing Lothering. It has nothing to do with Lothering. It has everything to do with fleeing Ferelden. If he is an able fighter, who chooses to save his own skin instead of joining the armies and fighting for his homeland, that is why some people are accusing him of being a coward.

I'll just point out Hawke has a family, and that family is apparently with them after they leave Lothering. There isn't exactly much of cowardice in choosing to protect one's own relatives over total strangers. And in fact. some of the player Wardens can't claim they did as much -- but instead, they left their own parents to die in burning castle. Was that also act of cowardice, or simple necessity?

Leaving the castle was as necessary as leaving Lothering was necessary. We know this because we know why someone would leave the castle in those circumstances, and why someone would leave Lothering. We don't know why Hawke left Ferelden. Until we know why Hawke left, some people are going to ask "Why did Hawke abandon Ferelden?" There are probably people who stayed behind, not even to fight, but just to be of some help. I'm sure some of the trained soldiers had families that they left behind, to fight to protect their families, or to fight to protect everyone--some people are going to call those men and women brave. The people who were able to fight, or able to be of some help, but not willing--some people are going to call them cowards.

[In Exile]

phaonica wrote...
Ok, yeah we're clearly using the word coward differently. I'm not saying that your definition is incorrect at all, just different from the way I was using it. This is from wikipedia:
"Cowards are usually seen to have avoided or refused to engage in a confrontation or struggle which has been deemed good or righteous by the wider culture in which they live. On a more mundane level, the label may be applied to those who are regarded as too frightened or overwhelmed to defend their rights or those of others from aggressors in their lives."

Apparently you seem to use it in the former way and not the latter. I reject the former as nationalistic propaganda.

[joriandrake]

Erebusd13 wrote...

I don't think there would be anything wrong with him being a straight coward in his flight...would certainly make him unique among most protagonists and somewhat interesting as well.

but then the game would become a comedy no? not that that would be so bad

[ScreamingPalm]

joriandrake wrote...

Erebusd13 wrote...

I don't think there would be anything wrong with him being a straight coward in his flight...would certainly make him unique among most protagonists and somewhat interesting as well.

but then the game would become a comedy no? not that that would be so bad

I'd absolutely find it interesting and intriguing.... although it would seem to go against the grain of testosterone filled blood and gore stuff that seems to sell to the masses.

[phaonica]

In Exile wrote...

phaonica wrote...
Ok, yeah we're clearly using the word coward differently. I'm not saying that your definition is incorrect at all, just different from the way I was using it. This is from wikipedia:
"Cowards are usually seen to have avoided or refused to engage in a confrontation or struggle which has been deemed good or righteous by the wider culture in which they live. On a more mundane level, the label may be applied to those who are regarded as too frightened or overwhelmed to defend their rights or those of others from aggressors in their lives."

Apparently you seem to use it in the former way and not the latter. I reject the former as nationalistic propaganda.

Well I don't. I'm not going to get into a political argument with you though. The main question was why people think Hawke might be a coward. I do think that for some it's a nationalistic sentiment. I also think that for some its a question of honor--that an able person who stands up for others as well as themselves is brave, and someone who is able but not willing to stand up for others is a coward.

Modifié par phaonica, 25 juillet 2010 - 05:19 .

[Grommash94]

I am guessing he fled to protect Bethany, or Flemeth made him, or something.

[thegoldfinch]

Dude, I LOVE cowardly protagonists. I have a bunch of short stories with them. They are incredibly fascinating to write. You know why?

They have the biggest potential to grow.

I'm not saying Hawke will always and forever be a coward because I want him/her to be... But mine might be. There is something satisfying in seeing a character going from having panic attacks to finding inner confidence and strength. I'd rather write or roleplay someone like that than a pure, noble fighter whose heroic resolve never, ever falters. Where's the conflict and fun in that?

But I think Hawke went north because of Beth. If he left to join the army, where would that leave her? A lone apostate, wandering Ferelden during a Blight? Yeah sure. That's some sibling love right there. Those two are the only family each has left (I am assuming), so it's pretty reasonable to assume they will want to be together. It's safest and logical to go north to escape the monsters that destroyed their home (and possibly to escape the Circle as well).

To what end? No one knows. We haven't, ya'know, played the game or anything like that.