452 réponses à ce sujet

[Bad_sheep]

While reading in this forum, I got the impression that the majority of commentors approved on the existance of the geth and the idea that we should seek coexistance with them.
However, I can't seem to understand why. In my opinion, any AI is a threat to organic life as they can be manipulated into doing awful stuff (see heretics), yet people still tend to refuse the irradication of geth under the pretense that they haven't done anything wrong and it is morally wrong to dispose of them.
But why should it be wrong?
The geth are machines and should be treated as such, treating with the same standard as living beings is incorrect, even Legion says it if you chose a renegade dialog during his loyalty mission (don't remember what dialog though). Point being that organics have priority over any created intelligence.
So what should be done? I think ressources should be spent at rewiring the geth so their AI becomes a VI and if that doesn't work, then we should outright destroy them before they can cause any harm.
Anyone else share my opinion? Do some people disagree? If so why?
Look forward to reading your posts.

[F3ralCr]

The idea here is that Geth are synthetic intelligence. Genuinely intelligent, regardless of the fact that they were engineered in stead of naturally evolved. Any sapient creature has a certain amount of rights and that would include the Geth.

[Sajuro]

The Quarians tried that whole wiping out thing and look how it turned out for them.

[Bad_sheep]

Sajuro wrote...

The Quarians tried that whole wiping out thing and look how it turned out for them.

It shouldn't be the quarian's problem alone, all council races should join the war against the geth. Because the last thing you need to have once the reapers return is an army of indoctrinated geth by their side.

[Simpfan]

Bad_sheep wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

The Quarians tried that whole wiping out thing and look how it turned out for them.

It shouldn't be the quarian's problem alone, all council races should join the war against the geth. Because the last thing you need to have once the reapers return is an army of indoctrinated geth by their side.

synthetics cannot be indoctrinated
the heretic geth joined sovereign of their own free will, and the true geth denied sovereign of their own free will
the majority of geth do not like the reapers

[Bad_sheep]

That doesn't make it any better, if some geth joined the reapers with their own free will that just comes to prove how unstable they are. I feel that doing nothing about them is only gonna come back at some point and bite us in the ass.

[Inverness Moon]

Your logic is terribly flawed. Firstly, "any AI is a threat to organic life as they can be manipulated into doing awful stuff." You're making it sound as if organics can't be manipulated into doing awful things. We have these things called emotions that can affect our judgement in ways that isn't possible for synthetic intelligences.

Bad_sheep wrote...

That doesn't make it any better, if some geth joined the reapers with their own free will that just comes to prove how unstable they are. I feel that doing nothing about them is only gonna come back at some point and bite us in the ass.

Organics are far more unstable and unpredictable than the geth for obvious reasons.

And, do you really think that if the reapers lied and said they would spare the few that helped them exterminate the rest of the galaxy, nobody would bite?

Also, feel free to explain how the heretics joining the reapers makes all the geth unstable.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 25 juillet 2010 - 12:53 .

[wulf3n]

Bad_sheep wrote...
In my opinion, any AI is a threat to organic life as they can be manipulated into doing awful stuff (see heretics),

So can organics (see Indoctrination), by your logic that means we should wipe out all Intelligent organic life as it poses a threat.

[Nightwriter]

Bad_sheep wrote...

That doesn't make it any better, if some geth joined the reapers with their own free will that just comes to prove how unstable they are. I feel that doing nothing about them is only gonna come back at some point and bite us in the ass.

Like Inverness said, the geth are no more corruptible than organics. Any being to whom freedom of choice is awarded can potentially do harm with that freedom of choice. That is the law of free sentience and free will.

Saren also joined the Reapers of his own free will, at first. Yet because the geth are a different form of life, you judge them by a different standard than you judge yourself or other organics.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 25 juillet 2010 - 01:10 .

[CroGamer002]

Legion: We believe this thread is racist against Geth.

[Bad_sheep]

All of your arguments are valid IF the geth are to be considered as life forms. Please bear in mind I'm not one to approve genocides, in fact, I saved the rachni and was against the genophage all along the game. But to me, the geth are as alive as toaster are and therefore shouldn't be considered as lives.

[Bad_sheep]

I can program a gun so it can shoot whoever tries to break it, does that make it anymore like us?
Also, when you say they deem life more valueble than death, how can you be sure that is the reason they fight? Remember the first use of the geth, as labor, so I'm sure whoever programmed them had in mind that the geth shouldn't break to easily and therefor created mechanisms of survival. Your speculation can go both ways.

Modifié par Bad_sheep, 25 juillet 2010 - 05:19 .

[Pacifien]

My interest in the geth is purely an extention of my interest in depictions of synthetics and AI in general. I actually try to understand how they work beyond your average organic understanding. For instance, they aren't designed to be AI. Their perception of their environment is greatly altered by their malleable gestalt collective. Legion is the closest they've come to an AI like EDI in that they have purposely installed a series of programs that, independantly, are little more than VI.

And dyson spheres interest me. Technological singularities interest me. The closest I get to that in the ME universe happens to be the geth. And maybe the Reapers.

As to why I lean toward the geth versus the quarians... bias. The quarians had potential that was squandered with the Ascension novel and ME2. The problem with always having high expectations next to actual result, I suppose. I'm a big advocate that the quarians simply need to settle on a new world. They can continue their covert war against the geth all they want, but this constant yearning for their homeworld--wait, this is a toally different topic.

As Shandepared likes to point out in various threads, Legion could be lying. Hiding true intentions. Don't care. Still find geth interesting.

[M.Erik.Sal]

So because they can be dangerous, we should wipe them all out? The same can be said of organics, let's wipe them all out too. Are we Reapers now? Yes.

[Pacifien]

Bad_sheep wrote...

Sajuro wrote...
The Quarians tried that whole wiping out thing and look how it turned out for them.

It shouldn't be the quarian's problem alone, all council races should join the war against the geth. Because the last thing you need to have once the reapers return is an army of indoctrinated geth by their side.

After Sovereign, in hindsight I'm sure the Council wishes they had joined the quarians in the war against the geth. But before then, the geth hadn't done anything against the Council. They stayed inside the Veil. The Council obviously had no interest in that part of space.

Okay, now after Sovereign, why the Council didn't go all out war is another matter. Perhaps their military force truly is stretched too thin. They seem barely able to handle the cold war against the Terminus Systems. Going after geth beyond the Veil seemed to be about the extent of their abilities, and when they noticed there wasn't much reinforcement coming from the Veil, I guess they figured they had it under control.

But whatever their reasons, I never found the Council to be very smart. Barely holding together by accident, I think.

[Sajuro]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Yet because the geth are a different form of life, you judge them by a different standard than you judge yourself or other organics.

For one, Saren did not join the Reapers of his own free will. Secondly, the geth aren't alive. They're computer programs and a computer program is not alive. 

They think therefor they are. This conversation seems to be in the direction of what measure is a non-human?

http://tvtropes.org/...sureIsANonHuman

[Pacifien]

Shandepared wrote...
For one, Saren did not join the Reapers of his own free will. Secondly, the geth aren't alive. They're computer programs and a computer program is not alive. 

Saren didn't mean to join the Reapers, he was just after a unique piece of salvage he discovered in Revelation. Not entirely sure if Sovereign needed to indoctrinate him to get Saren to join the cause. Could have been lies at first. Join me, I will make the Turians strong. Like how Sovereign roped the Heretics in.

I never liked getting into the alive or not debate. Scientists can't even define what constitutes life in our own world. It's not a matter of whether or not you feel the geth are alive, it's about whether you feel like you can view a synthetic on equal terms to an organic.

I think of Kasumi's comment about EDI, describing EDI's personality only to follow that up with the thought that she couldn't get past EDI being a computer.

[Pacifien]

Sajuro wrote...
They think therefor they are. This conversation seems to be in the direction of what measure is a non-human?

http://tvtropes.org/...sureIsANonHuman

I'm really trying not to come across as a **** here, but can I just go one discussion on these forums without that damn trope site being brought into the debate? Just once...

[M.Erik.Sal]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Yet because the geth are a different form of life, you judge them by a different standard than you judge yourself or other organics.

For one, Saren did not join the Reapers of his own free will. Secondly, the geth aren't alive. They're computer programs and a computer program is not alive. 

Saren certainly did join Sovereign of his own free will, he did it in the hope of proving the value fo organics to the Reapers and ensuring the survival of some living beings, it just backfired what with indoctrination.

[Pacifien]

M.Erik.Sal wrote...
Saren certainly did join Sovereign of his own free will, he did it in the hope of proving the value fo organics to the Reapers and ensuring the survival of some living beings, it just backfired what with indoctrination.

I don't think we'll ever truly know. Indoctrination can be subtle. That's how Shepard was able to get under Saren's skin after their chat on Virmire. Saren just couldn't be sure of where his own free will ended and Sovereign's indoctrination began.

Modifié par Pacifien, 25 juillet 2010 - 05:26 .