452 réponses à ce sujet

[Inverness Moon]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Inverness, obviously it depends on your definition. That is the primary debate here, and many people get Sapience and Sentience mixed:

Sapience:
Wisdom, Judgement, Perception

Sentience:
Feeling, Sensations, Experiences, Emotion

That is how I define them, Sapience being the logical part of existance, Sentience being the emotional part.

BioWare says that the geth are sentient. They seem to disagree with the whole emotional thing.

I disagree with your definition on sentience, and provide my own from Dictionary.com:

"Sentient: having the power of perception by the senses; conscious."

"Sapient: having or showing great wisdom or sound judgment."

Of course the definitions of these two things are bent when it comes to science fiction and artificial intelligence. But however you want to use it, I disagree with the idea that emotions are significant.

[Nightwriter]

scotchtape622 wrote...

While the Geth are definitely Sapient (the ability of an organism or entity to act with judgment), they are arguably not Sentient, depending on your definition. Whether or not the Geth are Sentient is the biggest issue here (well, that and how big of a threat they are), not the fact that they are synthetic instead of being organic.

The issue with this topic is that the true definition on sentient is a debate that has been argued by philosophers for centuries. In my opinion, the Geth are not sentient. To me, being Sapient is being aware and sensory, while having the ability to make logical decisions. However, sentience is a quality that cannot be achieved by a machine, an ability that is emotional, illogical.

Very well then.

There is no logical reason for the geth to tend to the quarian homeworld and continue caring for it. It is a waste of resources, and the geth themselves do not inhabit that world.

There is no logical reason for the geth to construct shrines at which they worship - and yet they do.

I think they do show signs of sentience, by your definition of the word.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 26 juillet 2010 - 08:39 .

[Terraneaux]

scotchtape622 wrote...

That is how I define them, Sapience being the logical part of existance, Sentience being the emotional part.

Some of Legion's comments seem to imply that he feels emotions.  "There was a hole," and his obvious feeling of betrayal at finding out the Heretics were spying on the Geth.  

In any case, you're working off of a flawed model of consciousness anyway.  You can't really explain consciousness without taking a determinist view.  

[Kikaimegami]

Terraneaux wrote...
Some of Legion's comments seem to imply that he feels emotions.  "There was a hole," and his obvious feeling of betrayal at finding out the Heretics were spying on the Geth. 

Man, look at my avatar and then tell me he wasn't freaking his crap right out during that confrontation

EDIT: Who knew panicking could be so adorable?

Modifié par Kikaimegami, 26 juillet 2010 - 08:54 .

[kraidy1117]

Kikaimegami wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...
Some of Legion's comments seem to imply that he feels emotions.  "There was a hole," and his obvious feeling of betrayal at finding out the Heretics were spying on the Geth. 

Man, look at my avatar and then tell me he wasn't freaking his crap right out during that confrontation

EDIT: Who knew panicking could be so adorable?

Dem head flaps are adorable.

[Kikaimegami]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Kikaimegami wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...
Some of Legion's comments seem to imply that he feels emotions.  "There was a hole," and his obvious feeling of betrayal at finding out the Heretics were spying on the Geth. 

Man, look at my avatar and then tell me he wasn't freaking his crap right out during that confrontation

EDIT: Who knew panicking could be so adorable?

Dem head flaps are adorable.

Yesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

[Inverness Moon]

And then Kikai took over the thread.

[Kikaimegami]

Inverness Moon wrote...

And then Kikai took over the thread.

I CLAIM THIS THREAD IN THE NAME OF..



Because no matter what race you are, geth, quarian, human... you always make standing in front of that waterfall look good.

[Nightwriter]

Vaguely disturbing. Yet also amusing. Feeling... confused... feelings...

[Kikaimegami]

Nightwriter wrote...

Vaguely disturbing. Yet also amusing. Feeling... confused... feelings...

Implications.. somewhat pleasant.

[Inverness Moon]

[scotchtape622]

Inverness Moon wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

Inverness, obviously it depends on your definition. That is the primary debate here, and many people get Sapience and Sentience mixed:

Sapience:
Wisdom, Judgement, Perception

Sentience:
Feeling, Sensations, Experiences, Emotion

That is how I define them, Sapience being the logical part of existance, Sentience being the emotional part.

BioWare says that the geth are sentient. They seem to disagree with the whole emotional thing.

I disagree with your definition on sentience, and provide my own from Dictionary.com:

"Sentient: having the power of perception by the senses; conscious."

"Sapient: having or showing great wisdom or sound judgment."

Of course the definitions of these two things are bent when it comes to science fiction and artificial intelligence. But however you want to use it, I disagree with the idea that emotions are significant.

Yes, but the Wikipedia definitions are:

Sapient: wisdom, or
the ability of an organism or entity to act with appropriate judgment.

Sentient: the ability of any entity to have subjective perceptual experiences, or "qualia".

Now, if a being is about to act with appropriate judgment, that would mean that they can percieve facts and their surrounds (because data is key in desion making).

The issue with the Sentient issue is that "qualia" has no true definition. This is one of the most important argument in philiosphy, and it is being argued on a message board


Now, while I agree that the Geth do show signs of Sentiece, there is one other issue. To me, the Geth are the biggest threat to organic life in the galaxy, next to the Reapers.

Currently, the Geth are okay with organics. They do not want to fight with them, and they want to peacefully coexist. However, the Geth are not like organics. First of all, they are a technological threat. They have the military potential to easilly defeat organics within a few hundred years. Secondly, the Geth can all act as one. If they reach a consencious that organics should be destroyed, the will all attack. The Geth do not have civilians, which gives them a huge advantage over organics. As we saw in the Morning War, the Geth are not afraid to kill civilians.

Even if the Geth prove to be sentient in the end, I still do not want a super powerful machine race to exist under their own control.

[Kikaimegami]

[Kroesis-]

I've always enjoyed a good debate, especially about AI. Done it many times, but you always know that the person(s) putting forward the opposing argument are running out of steam when they start giving one word or single line answers with no explanation, resorting to name calling (note: being called names by a faceless forumite means nothing and is generally an indication as to their lack of, or unwillingness to understand or comprehend a point or just a feeling of general inadequacy at that current point in the topic), and/or suggesting that their view is correct as they have absolute superiority over other posters with no evidence to prove the case ('i'm just better than you'). It also calls into question their maturity.

In the ME universe where it's been acknowledged that the Geth are both AI and sentient, the onus is on those who disagree to disprove it to an appropriate degree (and no, quoting an Admiral with political intentions doesn't count as a valid dismissal of the whole topic)

Modifié par Kroesis-, 26 juillet 2010 - 09:31 .

[Kikaimegami]

Kroesis- wrote...

I've always enjoyed a good debate, especially about AI. Done it many times, but you always know that the person(s) putting forward the opposing argument are running out of steam when they start giving one word or single line answers with no explanation, resorting to name calling (note: being called names by a faceless forumite means nothing and is generally an indication as to their lack of, or unwillingness to understand or comprehend a point or just a feeling of general inadequacy at that current point in the topic), and/or suggesting that their view is correct as they have absolute superiority over other posters with no evidence to prove the case ('i'm just better than you').

In the ME universe where it's been acknowledged that the Geth are both AI and sentient, the onus is on those who disagree to disprove it to an appropriate degree (and no, quoting an Admiral with political intentions doesn't count as a valid dismissal of the whole topic)

Why do you think I started posting pictures of Legion's posterior? I can't take anyone seriously who resorts to name-calling and questioning people's intelligence in order to win a debate, soooo... sexy pictures it is!

[Nightwriter]

I remember talking to Owain the Tranquil in the mage origin story of DA:O, and an interesting debate about personhood.

He said he liked the state he was in. I told him but now he was no longer a person. He insisted he was, and I said a person has feelings and emotions - he didn't.

It ended with him saying the argument was futile because personhood is not measurable.

At the time, I disagreed. I thought, it is indeed measurable. I remember thinking emotions were critical to my definition of the word person. The ability to perceive the world is not enough. You must have the ability to experience it, as well. Sadly, I did not feel that Owain was a person.

And yet, I do think Legion is a person. Why is that? 

[Kroesis-]

Kikaimegami wrote...
Why do you think I started posting pictures of Legion's posterior? I can't take anyone seriously who resorts to name-calling and questioning people's intelligence in order to win a debate, soooo... sexy pictures it is!

I just thought you liked Legion's posterior and thought it was an appropriate juncture to remind everyone what it looks like!

[wulf3n]

scotchtape622 wrote...
Secondly, the Geth can all act as one. If they reach a consencious that organics should be destroyed, the will all attack. 

And history has shown that they can also disagree with each other. If what you said was always the case, the attack on the citadel would have turned out quite different considering the "heretic" geth are only a small faction.

scotchtape622 wrote...
The Geth do not have civilians, which gives them a huge advantage over organics. As we saw in the Morning War, the Geth are not afraid to kill civilians. 

Judging the geth by what they did during the morning war, would be like judging humanity by its actions over 2000 years ago. They're only barely sentient, and already they're being exterminated by their creators. Sure they killed civilians but you don't even know if they new what civilians were back then.

scotchtape622 wrote...
Even if the Geth prove to be sentient in the end, I still do not want a super powerful machine race to exist under their own control.

So your condoning the eradication of a sentient species?

[Kikaimegami]

Kroesis- wrote...

Kikaimegami wrote...
Why do you think I started posting pictures of Legion's posterior? I can't take anyone seriously who resorts to name-calling and questioning people's intelligence in order to win a debate, soooo... sexy pictures it is!

I just thought you liked Legion's posterior and thought it was an appropriate juncture to remind everyone what it looks like!

Well, that too, but I'll take any excuse I can get

[Kroesis-]

Nightwriter wrote...

I remember talking to Owain the Tranquil in the mage origin story of DA:O, and an interesting debate about personhood.

He said he liked the state he was in. I told him but now he was no longer a person. He insisted he was, and I said a person has feelings and emotions - he didn't.

It ended with him saying the argument was futile because personhood is not measurable.

At the time, I disagreed. I thought, it is indeed measurable. I remember thinking emotions were critical to my definition of the word person. The ability to perceive the world is not enough. You must have the ability to experience it, as well. Sadly, I did not feel that Owain was a person.

And yet, I do think Legion is a person. Why is that? 

You said you feel that having emotions are integral to being a person. You say this Owain did not so you did not believe him to be a person (in your own view of course), but if you believe Legion has shown what could be seen as emotions, perhaps that is why.

[scotchtape622]

And history has shown that they can also disagree with each other. If
what you said was always the case, the attack on the citadel would have
turned out quite different considering the "heretic" geth are only a
small faction.

Yes, but this does not mean that there is a definite possibility that they do all agree on killing us. Organics do not serve a purpose for them, and from a purely logical perspective, the galaxy would be better off without us.

Judging the geth by what they did during the morning war, would be like
judging humanity by its actions over 2000 years ago. They're only barely
sentient, and already they're being exterminated by their creators.
Sure they killed civilians but you don't even know if they new what
civilians were back then.

First of all, that is silly to say that they might not know what civilians were back then. They were a highly advanced computer intelligence designed to make the lives of the Quarians easier. Even Avina and other VIs know the difference between a Civilian and Military personel.

Secondly, what does "barely sentient" mean. That they just recently became sentient, or that they were only slightly sentient? In the first case, it does not matter, they were still sentient and still made the judgment to wipe out the Quarians. If you mean "slightly sentient" that has no meaning, because there simply is no such thing.

Thirdly, how much has humanity changed in two thousand years? Whether or not your conclusion that "Judging the geth by what they did during the morning war, would be like
judging humanity by its actions over 2000 years ago" is logical or not, humans society has always been the same, with the exception of the advancement of military technology and economic theory (which led to many wars in the Medieval ages). We still fight illogical wars because of illogical things.

So your condoning the eradication of a sentient species?

To me, the Geth are not sentient. I do not see sufficient evidence that they are (the evidence provided being their cleaning of the Quarian worlds, Legion's n7 armor, and other behaviors from Legion). To me, destroying the Geth would be little more that wiping a hard drive. Maybe, to someone with a more sypathetic approach, but with similar views, it would be like killing off an animal species.

EDIT:

I've always thought the greater issue with qualia is whether we have a
good reason to believe it exists. But yes, I do love the fact that we
message board dorks are debating something philosophers can't even come
to any sort of agreement on.

lol exactly!

I would say the biggest threat to organic life in the galaxy after the
Reapers is organic life in the galaxy. We don't have the best track
record or treating each other or our environment.

While what you are saying may be correct, it is sort of hard to fix that problem :happy:

Modifié par scotchtape622, 26 juillet 2010 - 09:59 .

[Nightwriter]

Kroesis- wrote...

You said you feel that having emotions are integral to being a person. You say this Owain did not so you did not believe him to be a person (in your own view of course), but if you believe Legion has shown what could be seen as emotions, perhaps that is why.

And there is my answer.

[wulf3n]

scotchtape622 wrote...
Organics do not serve a purpose for them, and from a purely logical perspective, the galaxy would be better off without us.

war is illogical, unless its forced upon you.

scotchtape622 wrote...
First of all, that is silly to say that they might not know what civilians were back then. They were a highly advanced computer intelligence designed to make the lives of the Quarians easier. Even Avina and other VIs know the difference between a Civilian and Military personel.

VI's are not intelligent, they don't "know" things they merely recite data that's given to them. From the geth perspective. Quarians want to kill all geth, for geth to survive there must be no quarians.

scotchtape622 wrote...
Secondly, what does "barely sentient" mean. That they just recently became sentient, or that they were only slightly sentient? In the first case, it does not matter, they were still sentient and still made the judgment to wipe out the Quarians. If you mean "slightly sentient" that has no meaning, because there simply is no such thing.

That they just recently became sentient, and no sentience does not include. judgement, that's sapience.

scotchtape622 wrote...
Thirdly, how much has humanity changed in two thousand years? Whether or not your conclusion that "Judging the geth by what they did during the morning war, would be like
judging humanity by its actions over 2000 years ago" is logical or not, humans society has always been the same, with the exception of the advancement of military technology and economic theory (which led to many wars in the Medieval ages). We still fight illogical wars because of illogical things.

I was trying to compare early humans with early geth, and even though the majority of humanity is still barbarous, Society has still advanced, admittedly only within the last century.

scotchtape622 wrote...
To me, the Geth are not sentient. I do not see sufficient evidence that they are (the evidence provided being their cleaning of the Quarian worlds, Legion's n7 armor, and other behaviors from Legion). To me, destroying the Geth would be little more that wiping a hard drive.

But you said,

scotchtape622 wrote...
Even if the Geth prove to be sentient in the end, I still do not want a super powerful machine race to exist under their own control.

So you would eradicate them even if they were sentient. implying that you would eradicate a species simply because they are better than you are, and fear that they will kill you because of it.

Modifié par wulf3n, 26 juillet 2010 - 10:14 .