452 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

Geth were third strike for Council.
1st Rachni War, they sucked at it, needed newcomer Krogans.
2nd Krogans Rebellions, they sucked at it, needed newcomer Turians.
3rd Geth invasion, in one battle they annihilate their fleet with small help of Soverign, needed newcomer Humans.

And their out with my cannon Shepard.

Modifié par Mesina2, 26 juillet 2010 - 10:12 .

[Kroesis-]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Yes, but this does not mean that there is a definite possibility that they do all agree on killing us. Organics do not serve a purpose for them, and from a purely logical perspective, the galaxy would be better off without us.

An alarmist viewpoint, imo. There is no evidence that they intend on doing anything like that, in fact they just seem to want to keep to themselves, all Geth in one big megastructure or dyson sphere with an ability to defend themselves if threatened.

First of all, that is silly to say that they might not know what civilians were back then. They were a highly advanced computer intelligence designed to make the lives of the Quarians easier. Even Avina and other VIs know the difference between a Civilian and Military personel.

It's been seen before that it isn't just military personell who fight, citizens can also take up arms, riot etc.. With no extra info on the persecution of both Geth and Quarian by the opposing side we cannot accurately state that either sides action weren't viewed as justified.

Secondly, what does "barely sentient" mean. That they just recently became sentient, or that they were only slightly sentient? In the first case, it does not matter, they were still sentient and still made the judgment to wipe out the Quarians. If you mean "slightly sentient" that has no meaning, because there simply is no such thing.

The geth are technological, not biological. You cannot impress biological reasoning on them. Their process to becoming sentient may be quite different, again we do not know. Besides they are seeing their world and their place in it with 'new eyes' so to speak, this may have taken some time, or it could have been a quick transition, we don't know for sure.

Thirdly, how much has humanity changed in two thousand years? Whether or not your conclusion that "Judging the geth by what they did during the morning war, would be like
judging humanity by its actions over 2000 years ago" is logical or not, humans society has always been the same, with the exception of the advancement of military technology and economic theory (which led to many wars in the Medieval ages). We still fight illogical wars because of illogical things.

Quite true, however a great many more things have advanced as well. Our understanding of biology, philisophy, a different awareness of our place in the cosmos, beliefs and attitudes of society etc.. While these have, of course, not stopped us from going to war, they can go some way to describe why we go to war. 

To me, the Geth are not sentient. I do not see sufficient evidence that they are (the evidence provided being their cleaning of the Quarian worlds, Legion's n7 armor, and other behaviors from Legion). To me, destroying the Geth would be little more that wiping a hard drive. Maybe, to someone with a more sypathetic approach, but with similar views, it would be like killing off an animal species.

I can't deny you your viewpoint, I can only disagree.

I do love the fact that we
message board dorks are debating something philosophers can't even come
to any sort of agreement on.

lol exactly!

Indeed, but why leave it just to philosophers to have all the fun!

I would say the biggest threat to organic life in the galaxy after the
Reapers is organic life in the galaxy. We don't have the best track
record or treating each other or our environment.

While what you are saying may be correct, it is sort of hard to fix that problem :happy:

I say we wipe ourselves out after/if we defeat the reapers. Hey, it saves the Geth from being able to do so...

Modifié par Kroesis-, 26 juillet 2010 - 10:29 .

[scotchtape622]

war is illogical, unless its forced upon you.

Wrong. There are plenty of logical reasons for war. Only when you mix emotions with logic does war become a purely bad thing.

VI's are not intelligent, they don't "know" things they merely recite
data that's given to them. From the geth perspective. Quarians want to
kill all geth, for geth to survive there must be no quarians.

Now your argument is changed. You went from "they didn't know any better" to "their actions are justified". Which is it?

That they just recently became sentient, and no sentience does not
include. judgement, that's sapience.

I never said that sentience includes judgement. I said they made a judgement. I said that if they were sentient, and decided to wipe out the Quarians, then clearly they are not a faction that I want in existence.

I was trying to compare early humans with early geth, and even
though the majority of humanity is still barbarous, Society has still
advanced, admittedly only within the last century.

So what's your arguement here? DId you concede to my point?

So you would eradicate them even if they were sentient. implying that
you would eradicate a species simplyu because they are better than you
are, and fear that will kill you because of it.

Not fear. There is plenty of evidence that the Geth are plenty hostile and won't think twice about wiping us out. Imagine a scenario like this:

Iran is working on its nuclear program.

Unlike in today's world, there would be little danger to your population, or the population of your allies, if you attacked. There would also be little political fallout, because the majority of your population supports a war.

Wouldn't you attack?

I don't think these are very good analogies since hard drives
& animals aren't sapient.

Out of curiosity, where do you lump
desire & creativity re: sapience or sentience? I feel these are
both features of sentience & geth posses both qualities. Obvious
conclusion follows from there.

I disagree, I would put them under Sapience.

1. Desire is the want of something that you feel would benefit you
2. Creativity is the process of creating something unique, for your benefit or the benefit of others.

Now using these definitions, I feel that they would both fall under Sapience. Desire is not necessarily connected to emotions. For example, the Geth want to create some kind of super-server, to connect all of them. This would be of great benefit for them. This desire is purely logical in my opinion, as is all desire when not mixed with emotion (for example, the Geth do not pursue love, a desire mixed with other logic and emotion).

Creativy is similar to desire. It can be linked with sentience, in the case of art, music, and the like. However, the Geth use their creativity for purely logical means, using data and their sense to create conclusions on how to progress. IMO a sentient being often uses creativy, not as a matieral benefit to themselves or others, but as a "soul enriching" experience, something that the Geth do not do, as far as we know.

An alarmist viewpoint, imo. There is no evidence that they intend on
doing anything like that, in fact they just seem to want to keep to
themselves, all Geth in one big megastructure or dyson sphere with an
ability to defend themselves if threatened.

That is how they feel right now, but what happens in a thousand years when their terrortory is running low on resources?

It's been seen before that it isn't just military personell who fight,
citizens can also take up arms, riot etc.. With no extra info on the
persecution of both Geth and Quarian by the opposing side we cannot
accurately state that either sides action weren't viewed as justified.

Do we not all feel like our actions are in some way justified? That doesn't make them justified, even if that is how we personally percieve them. Killing civilians, especially children, can't be tolerated.

You cannot impress biological reasoning on them.

This is the exact reason why I feel that it is too risky to let them live.

Quite true, however a great many more things have advanced as well. Our
understanding of biology, philisophy, a different awareness of our place
in the cosmos, beliefs and attitudes of society etc.. While these have,
of course, not stopped us from going to war, they can go some way to
describe why we go to war.

Yes, but there isn't evidence that the Geth have advanced in this way. They already had access to a vast amount of knowledge that society today does not have.

Modifié par scotchtape622, 26 juillet 2010 - 10:35 .

[wulf3n]

[quote]scotchtape622 wrote...
Wrong. There are plenty of logical reasons for war. Only when you mix emotions with logic does war become a purely bad thing.[/quote]

I can only think of one resources. and war generally costs more than you get.

[quote]VI's are not intelligent, they don't "know" things they merely recite
data that's given to them. From the geth perspective. Quarians want to
kill all geth, for geth to survive there must be no quarians. [/quote]
[quote]scotchtape622 wrote...
Now your argument is changed. You went from "they didn't know any better" to "their actions are justified". Which is it?[/quote]

No, no i didn't. maybe you should re-read what i said. 

[quote]scotchtape622 wrote...
I never said that sentience includes judgement. I said they made a judgement. I said that if they were sentient, and decided to wipe out the Quarians, then clearly they are not a faction that I want in existence.[/quote]

my mistake.

[quote]scotchtape622 wrote...
So what's your arguement here? DId you concede to my point?[/quote]

Not quite, even though humanities change is only recent and not complete, it has still changed.

[quote]scotchtape622 wrote...
Not fear. There is plenty of evidence that the Geth are plenty hostile and won't think twice about wiping us out.
[/quote]
That sounds like fear to me. and by that logic humanity should be trying to exterminate the Turians and the Batarians as well, as they have both attacked humanity without provocation, more so than the geth.

[quote]scotchtape622 wrote...
Wouldn't you attack?[/quote]

attack maybe, but i wouldn't deny them existence.
[/quote]

[CroGamer002]

wulf3n wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...
Wrong. There are plenty of logical reasons for war. Only when you mix emotions with logic does war become a purely bad thing.

I can only think of one resources. and war generally costs more than you get.

Unless you are some corporation that profits from war.
Ofcourse they don't give a crap about people.

[scotchtape622]

I can only think of one resources. and war generally costs more than
you
get.

Not in the case of a Galaxy's worth of resources, and in the vast future, even the resources of a universe.

No, no i didn't. maybe you should re-read what i said. 

First you said

They're only barely
sentient, and already they're being exterminated
by their creators.
Sure they killed civilians but you don't even
know if they new what
civilians were back then.

My interpretation of what was said here was that because the Geth may not know any better against killing their civilians, that it was okay that they did.

VI's are not intelligent, they don't "know" things they merely recite
data
that's given to them. From the geth perspective. Quarians want to
kill
all geth, for geth to survive there must be no quarians.

My interpretation of what was said here was that because the Geth were being attacked by the Quarians, and that because they percieved the Quarians to be a threat, that it was okay what they did.

That is a change in stance, and both are wrong. There is no justification for killing non hostile women and children.

That sounds like fear to me. and by that logic humanity should be trying
to exterminate the Turians and the Batarians as well, as they have both
attacked humanity without provocation, more so than the geth.

Your analogy is incorrect. The Turians attacked with provocation, and the Batarians did not attack humanity. A group of Batarian slavers did (unless I missed something from the history). The difference here is that all Batarians are different, while the Geth are "one." Sure, the heretics broke off, but that was the first time in 300 years that there was a disagreement amougst the Geth. If a consensus is reached to exterminate organics, they will.

attack maybe, but i wouldn't deny them existence.

If there were a way to allow the Geth independence, while eliminating their threat, I would take it, especially if they are proven to be sentient. However, I don't see a way of that happening.

[wulf3n]

scotchtape622 wrote...
Not in the case of a Galaxy's worth of resources, and in the vast future, even the resources of a universe.

Exactly why spend resources in war, when you have a whole galaxy?

scotchtape622 wrote...
First you said

They're only barely
sentient, and already they're being exterminated
by their creators.
Sure they killed civilians but you don't even
know if they new what
civilians were back then.

My interpretation of what was said here was that because the Geth may not know any better against killing their civilians, that it was okay that they did.

VI's are not intelligent, they don't "know" things they merely recite
data
that's given to them. From the geth perspective. Quarians want to
kill
all geth, for geth to survive there must be no quarians.

My interpretation of what was said here was that because the Geth were being attacked by the Quarians, and that because they percieved the Quarians to be a threat, that it was okay what they did.

That is a change in stance, and both are wrong. There is no justification for killing non hostile women and children.

It's not a change in stance, as my whole point was and has always been the geth may not have known what a civilian was. That to the geth, they were only quarian, not military or civiilan.

scotchtape622 wrote...
Your analogy is incorrect. The Turians attacked with provocation, and the Batarians did not attack humanity. A group of Batarian slavers did (unless I missed something from the history). The difference here is that all Batarians are different, while the Geth are "one." Sure, the heretics broke off, but that was the first time in 300 years that there was a disagreement amougst the Geth. If a consensus is reached to exterminate organics, they will.

edit: Since when is trying to turn on a relay provocation?
edit: The individuality that you praise the batarians for having is more of a danger the the "one' mentality of the geth. The likelihood of geth reaching consensus to wipe out all life, is a lot less than that of a rogue bunch of zealots with a grudge.

You seem to be ignoring facts, as geth have shown that just because there is consensus, does not mean they will all follow that consensus, so they're just as dangerous as an

scotchtape622 wrote...
If there were a way to allow the Geth independence, while eliminating their threat, I would take it, especially if they are proven to be sentient. However, I don't see a way of that happening.

so you condone the eradication of a sentient species because you fear them.

Modifié par wulf3n, 26 juillet 2010 - 11:11 .

[scotchtape622]

Exactly why spend resources in war, when you have a whole galaxy?

The Geth don't have an entire galaxy, they control the Perseus Veil, a small part of the galaxy.

It's not a change in stance, as my whole point was and has always been
the geth may not have known what a civilian was. That to the geth, they
were only quarian, not military or civiilan.

Yes it is. You made a point. I countered that point. Then, instead of adressing my counter, you made a new point, making a change in stance.

You seem to be ignoring facts, as geth have shown that just because
there is consensus, does not mean they will all follow that consensus,
so they're just as dangerous as an

You seem to be ignoring facts. There has only been one brake off from the consensus in the history of the Geth. It isn't likely to happen again, especially for something as logical as wiping out organics, who from the perspective of pure logic, are a blight on the galaxy.

so you condone the eradication of a sentient species because you fear
them.

Straw man argument? I condone military action against a faction (the geth are not a species) of dangerous machines, who are not under the control of the Citadel Councel, who have the potential to wipe out all organic life, and who have proved time and time again that they are dangerous.

I would condone an attack on any faction that kills civilian ships on sight, in order to be isolationist.

[Inverness Moon]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Straw man argument? I condone military action against a faction (the geth are not a species) of dangerous machines, who are not under the control of the Citadel Councel, who have the potential to wipe out all organic life, and who have proved time and time again that they are dangerous.

I would condone an attack on any faction that kills civilian ships on sight, in order to be isolationist.

The true geth are only dangerous if provoked. And what does the Citadel Council have to do with anything? Are you saying that if they decided to acknowledge the authority of the Council, that it would change anything? I doubt it.

The geth have not proven themselves to be more dangerous than any other organic species in the galaxy.

As for killing civilian ships, I doubt that wasn't done by the heretics. And even if it wasn't, the true geth wouldn't now, based on what Legion has said, mistakes like that aren't sufficient justification for genocide.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 26 juillet 2010 - 11:25 .

[wulf3n]

scotchtape622 wrote...
The Geth don't have an entire galaxy, they control the Perseus Veil, a small part of the galaxy.

So you believe every planet in the galaxy has been claimed?

scotchtape622 wrote...
Yes it is. You made a point. I countered that point. Then, instead of adressing my counter, you made a new point, making a change in stance.

You seriously think that was a change in stance? even though both points were about the geth not recognizing the difference between hostile and non hostile quarians, that all they saw were quarians.

scotchtape622 wrote...
You seem to be ignoring facts. There has only been one brake off from the consensus in the history of the Geth. It isn't likely to happen again, especially for something as logical as wiping out organics, who from the perspective of pure logic, are a blight on the galaxy.

How is your prejudice fact?

scotchtape622 wrote...
Straw man argument? I condone military action against a faction (the geth are not a species) of dangerous machines, who are not under the control of the Citadel Councel, who have the potential to wipe out all organic life, and who have proved time and time again that they are dangerous.

Time and time again huh! you mean the whole 2 times geth have openly attacked! one being in self defence, and the other a small faction with a differing opinion! and on this you approve the eradication of an entire sentient species?

scotchtape622 wrote...
I would condone an attack on any faction that kills civilian ships on sight, in order to be isolationist.

So you condemn a species to extinction because they wanna be left alone and defend their borders?

[Kroesis-]

scotchtape622 wrote...
You seem to be ignoring facts. There has only been one brake off from the consensus in the history of the Geth. It isn't likely to happen again, especially for something as logical as wiping out organics, who from the perspective of pure logic, are a blight on the galaxy.

Assumption.

so you condone the eradication of a sentient species because you fear
them.

Straw man argument? I condone military action against a faction (the geth are not a species) of dangerous machines, who are not under the control of the Citadel Councel, who have the potential to wipe out all organic life, and who have proved time and time again that they are dangerous.

I would condone an attack on any faction that kills civilian ships on sight, in order to be isolationist.

Would you do the same if they were a biological species? Should I assume that you'd also condone any attack on the Rachni?

Modifié par Kroesis-, 26 juillet 2010 - 11:26 .

[scotchtape622]

So you believe every planet in the galaxy has been claimed?

What does that have to do with anything? You seem to be using the Straw Man argument a lot. In the long term, the Perseus Veil isn't enough for any faction that wants to continue growth.

You seriously think that was a change in stance? even though both points
were about the geth not recognizing the difference between hostile and
non hostile quarians, that all they saw were quarians.

Yes it was. One was:

The geth didn't know any better.

The geth were defending themselves.

Two different stances. One involves the ignorance of the geth, not understand the difference between hostile and non hostile quarians, while the other was them attempting to erridicate a hostile enemy.

How is your prejudice fact?

Where was any prejudice in that statement? From a logical perspective, anything that does not postivly help the Geth, and in fact damages their potential, is a blight. That is fact.

Time and time again huh! you mean the whole 2 times geth have openly
attacked! one being in self defence, and the other a small faction with a
differing opinion!

Or whenever any ship has gotten near the Veil.

and on this you approve the eradication of an entire sentient species?

Once again, I don't think the Geth are sentient, and the Geth are definitely not a species.

So you condemn a species to extinction because they wanna be left alone
and defend their borders?

I'm I getting tired of your straw man arguments.

Assumption.

Okay, only one known brake off. Same thing. Based off the intelligence we have, my statement is logical.

Would you do the same if they were a biological species?

I would never commit genocide against any biological species that would be willing to cooperate, even the Rachni. However, I would condone a strong military action against anyone who attacks civilian ships. My issue with the Geth is that I don't think there is any safe way of controlling them without rewriting them, which is something that most here are against.

[Kroesis-]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Would you do the same if they were a biological species?

I would never commit genocide against any biological species that would be willing to cooperate, even the Rachni. However, I would condone a strong military action against anyone who attacks civilian ships. My issue with the Geth is that I don't think there is any safe way of controlling them without rewriting them, which is something that most here are against.

What if the Geth were willing to cooperate, in some manner? What if they made an agreement that they don't venture into Organic populated space and Organics don't venture into Geth populated space? Why only strong military action against an organic species and not wiping them out? Would you want to control an organic species if theire possibly hostile?

Modifié par Kroesis-, 26 juillet 2010 - 11:43 .

[wulf3n]

scotchtape622 wrote...
What does that have to do with anything? You seem to be using the Straw Man argument a lot. In the long term, the Perseus Veil isn't enough for any faction that wants to continue growth.

1. how do you know the Perseus Veil isn't enough?
2. how do you know the geth want to grow?

scotchtape622 wrote...

Yes it was. One was:

The geth didn't know any better.

The geth were defending themselves.

Two different stances. One involves the ignorance of the geth, not understand the difference between hostile and non hostile quarians, while the other was them attempting to erridicate a hostile enemy.

Your serious? this has to be a joke and your all in on it right? i really can't take you seriously can i.

scotchtape622 wrote...

Where was any prejudice in that statement? From a logical perspective, anything that does not postivly help the Geth, and in fact damages their potential, is a blight. That is fact.

1) it's not logical, as starting a war with every species in the galaxy is MORE damaging to their potential.
2) It's all based upon your assumption about the geth.
3) It contradicts what we know about the geth.

scotchtape622 wrote...

Or whenever any ship has gotten near the Veil.

You mean when people have invaded their territory! 

scotchtape622 wrote...
Once again, I don't think the Geth are sentient, and the Geth are definitely not a species.

But you've said geth sentience is irrelevant as you would still wipe them out

look:

scotchtape622 wrote...
Even if the Geth prove to be sentient in the end, I still do not want a super powerful machine race to exist under their own control.

you know i'm starting to see where shand and smud are coming from.

Modifié par wulf3n, 26 juillet 2010 - 11:47 .

[Inverness Moon]

scotchtape622 wrote...

What does that have to do with anything? You seem to be using the Straw Man argument a lot. In the long term, the Perseus Veil isn't enough for any faction that wants to continue growth.

It means there is a great deal of uncharted space out there that could have resources. And don't pretend to know what is behind the Perseus Veil and how much room for growth there is.

scotchtape622 wrote...

You seriously think that was a change in stance? even though both points
were about the geth not recognizing the difference between hostile and
non hostile quarians, that all they saw were quarians.

Yes it was. One was:

The geth didn't know any better.

The geth were defending themselves.

Two different stances. One involves the ignorance of the geth, not understand the difference between hostile and non hostile quarians, while the other was them attempting to erridicate a hostile enemy.

Those aren't really different at all. If many quarians attacked them the geth might have figured that the quarians had come to consensus about their destruction. The geth were indeed defending themselves, but they most likely did not understand individuality at the time and did not realize that all the quarians might not have been in agreement with each other. This is why there would be no distinction between combatants and non-combatants as long as some of the quarians continued to attack them.

scotchtape622 wrote...

How is your prejudice fact?

Where was any prejudice in that statement? From a logical perspective, anything that does not postivly help the Geth, and in fact damages their potential, is a blight. That is fact.

How do organics damage their potential exactly?

scotchtape622 wrote...

and on this you approve the eradication of an entire sentient species?

Once again, I don't think the Geth are sentient, and the Geth are definitely not a species.

According to BioWare, the geth are both sentient and a species. You're wrong.

scotchtape622 wrote...

Would you do the same if they were a biological species?

I would never commit genocide against any biological species that would be willing to cooperate, even the Rachni. However, I would condone a strong military action against anyone who attacks civilian ships. My issue with the Geth is that I don't think there is any safe way of controlling them without rewriting them, which is something that most here are against.

So if the geth were willing to cooperate, what would you do?

Also, when is the last time a civilian ship was attacked, and how do you know if the true geth or the heretics did it?

And your issue is that you seek to control them because of how they exist. I would guess that means if you found some easy way to control organics (indoctrination?) you would do it if you could?

[scotchtape622]

Definition of subjective:
pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual

Definition of objective:
not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased

Now from how I understand it, there are two reasons why the Geth are not Subjective.

1. The Geth are not individual, they act as one. "We are Geth."
2. Instead of basing their decisions on a specific unit's interpretation, the Geth make their decisions by gathering data and building a consensus, the closest thing to pure objectivity any sapient species can reach.


EDIT:


[quote]What if the Geth were willing to cooperate, in some manner? What if they
made an agreement that they don't venture into Organic populated space
and Organics don't venture into Geth populated space?  [/quote]
A deal like that wouldn't work for me, because that is essentially all that is in place. I wouldn't trust another faction to be left alone, without us gathering intel on them
[quote] Why only strong
military action against an organic species and not wiping them out? [/quote]
I don't want to go into advanced military strategy, but essentially, you can suppress an organic species' miltary capabilities, but if you do police actioin on the Geth, their actions are impossible to predict. They do not communicate in the same way as we do.
[quote]Would you want to control an organic species if theire possibly hostile? [/quote]
We do, it is called laws and government.
[quote]how do you know the Perseus Veil isn't enough? [/quote]
Because the Veil does not have infinite resources
[quote]how do you know the geth want to grow? [/quote]
Because they continually build more Geth.

[quote] it's not logical, as starting a war with every species in the galaxy is
MORE damaging to their potential. [/quote]
Incorrect. After the war is over, the Geth would have no opposition. They would have full control of the Galaxy, and would have essentially infinite potential.
[quote]2) It's all based upon your assumption about the geth.
3) It
contradicts what we know about the geth. [/quote]
Incorrect. My belief, that organics hinder the growth of synthetics, is a fact.
[quote]You mean when people have invaded their territory!  [/quote]
According to wikipedia:
An invasion is a military offensive consisting of all,
or large parts of the armed
forces of one geopolitical entity aggressively entering territory controlled by
another such entity, generally with the objective of either
conquering, liberating or re-establishing control or authority over a
territory

Not random civilian freitors that are just minding their own business.

[quote] But you've said geth sentience is irrelevant as you would still wipe
them out[/quote]
I said that I don't want them to exist under their own control. They should be under the control of the Councel, just like the Humans, Turians, Asari, and every other sentient being (assuming the Geth are sentient)

[quote]It means there is a great deal of uncharted space out there that could
have resources. And don't pretend to know what is behind the Perseus
Veil and how much room for growth there is. [/quote]
Actually, assuming that the Veil is the Perseus Arm from real life, I know exactly how much room there is for growth. And it isn't infinite.

[quote]Those aren't really different at all. If many quarians attacked them the
geth might have figured that the quarians had come to consensus about
their destruction. The geth were indeed defending themselves, but they
most likely did not understand individuality at the time and did not
realize that all the quarians might not have been in agreement with each
other. This is why there would be no distinction between combatants and
non-combatants as long as some of the quarians continued to attack
them. [/quote]
Yes, they are similar but still different. One stated that the Quarians didn't know the difference between military and civilians, while the other stated that the Geth were trying to completly eliminate a threat.

And either way, both theories are based off of evidence-less conjecture.


[quote] How do organics damage their potential exactly?[/quote]
Because we use up terrirtory and resoures.

[quote]According to BioWare, the geth are both sentient and a species. You're
wrong. [/quote]
No, they are wrong, you have to be biological to be a species.

And even if they said they are sentient, we are basing whether or not they are sentient by the information they have given us through the story. The Alliance Military doesn't have Bioware telling them whether it is morally correct to destroy the Geth or not.

[quote] so if the geth were willing to cooperate, what would you do?[/quote]
I'd treat them like any other alien faction.

[quote]Also,
when is the last time a civilian ship was attacked, and how do you know
if the true geth or the heretics did it?[/quote]It had to be the true geth, because the Heretics have not existed very long.

And we don't know how often ships are attacked, all we know is that every ship that goes near their territory is attacked.

[quote]And your issue is that
you seek to control them because of how they exist. I would guess that
means if you found some easy way to control organics (indoctrination?)
you would do it if you could?[/quote]We do control organics, through laws and governments. I just want oversight and regulations on the Geth, assuming a peaceful resolution can be found.

Modifié par scotchtape622, 26 juillet 2010 - 12:10 .

[Inverness Moon]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Definition of subjective:
pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual

Definition of objective:
not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased

Now from how I understand it, there are two reasons why the Geth are not Subjective.

1. The Geth are not individual, they act as one. "We are Geth."
2. Instead of basing their decisions on a specific unit's interpretation, the Geth make their decisions by gathering data and building a consensus, the closest thing to pure objectivity any sapient species can reach.

Derp.

[Kroesis-]

Don't forget who made up those definitions and the definitions of sentience and sapience.

[Revan061]

wiggles89 wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...
I disagree, I would put them under Sapience.

1. To be sentient one must have subjective experiences. To have these subjective experiences I don't think one must be capable of emotion, for I think it's logically possible to haev a subjective personal experience & not have an emotinal sensation (which I'll get to later in the argument). Now, we know that geth reason based on logical equations, but these aren't equations aren't akin to mathematical ones where there is an a priori answer. Rather, their equations are a posteriori.

To this point we know of one division among the geth: the heretics situation. Heretics, based on a logical equation, reach the conclusion that alignment with the Reapers is vogue. True geth, based on a logical equation, think that alignment of the Reapers is passe. In both of these conclusions the geth have developed a desire for how they wish to exist. What is the source for this desire? Their subjective personal experiences, in other words: sentience. Was this desire caused by an emotion or some other squishy feeling? No.

2. The creativity thing, I think it came from my Monday work brain. Or I'm a moran. Take your pick.

Sorry to just pop in, but I think we should keep in mind the fact that Sovereign introduced the anomaly in the Geth equation, and that barring his influence they probably wouldn’t have even joined Saren in the first place.

[scotchtape622]

1. The decision on the heretic station involved individual programs
making different decisions on whether to rewrite or destroy. Therefore,
subjective experiences took place.

2. There are different ways to
interpret data.

I suppose that it depends on how you see it. In the little picture, it may seem like they are sentient, but in the big picture, Legion did not make a descion because he felt like he could not make an objective descion.

[Inverness Moon]

scotchtape622 wrote...

1. The decision on the heretic station involved individual programs
making different decisions on whether to rewrite or destroy. Therefore,
subjective experiences took place.

2. There are different ways to
interpret data.

I suppose that it depends on how you see it. In the little picture, it may seem like they are sentient, but in the big picture, Legion did not make a descion because he felt like he could not make an objective descion.

In the big picture? Legion is a network of 1,183 geth. They could not agree on the same course of action despite all of them apparently having the same data. Obviously either, they did not have enough time, lacked sufficient data with which to make a decision, or there was some X factor involved, so they deferred to the one they believed had more data and therefore better judgement, Shepard.

[wulf3n]

scotchtape622 wrote...
Because the Veil does not have infinite resources 

Based upon the assumption that geth require infinite resources

scotchtape622 wrote...
Because they continually build more Geth. 

You know this how? that would require knowledge of how many geth there are!

scotchtape622 wrote...
Incorrect. After the war is over, the Geth would have no opposition. They would have full control of the Galaxy, and would have essentially infinite potential.

Thats assuming they win the war, why take the risk when you have all the resources you need?

scotchtape622 wrote...
Incorrect. My belief, that organics hinder the growth of synthetics, is a fact.

You can say it much as you want but that doesn't make it fact.

scotchtape622 wrote...
Not random civilian freitors that are just minding their own business.

1) you don't just mind your own business in another species territory
2) what civilian freighters? the only example i know of is Tali's science team, with a military escort?

scotchtape622 wrote...
I said that I don't want them to exist under their own control. They should be under the control of the Councel, just like the Humans, Turians, Asari, and every other sentient being (assuming the Geth are sentient)

So if they don't obey our commands, you would have them exterminated?

scotchtape622 wrote...
Yes, they are similar but still different. One stated that the Quarians didn't know the difference between military and civilians, while the other stated that the Geth were trying to completly eliminate a threat.

No, one argument said the GETH didn't know the difference between military and civilian so attacked all Quarians, the other said they didn't know the difference and so attacked all Quarians.

See what you mistake for a change in stance was actually me describing the same situation in a different way in an attempt to help you understand.

Modifié par wulf3n, 26 juillet 2010 - 12:31 .