452 réponses à ce sujet

[scotchtape622]

I don't understand what you are trying to say I'm assuming that the X factor you mean is sentience, but you could say:

they did not have enough time so they deferred to the one they believed had more data and therefore better judgement, Shepard.

or

they lacked sufficient data with which to make a decision so they deferred to the one they believed had more data and therefore better judgement, Shepard.

EDIT:

I try to make my decsions objectivly too. I also like Legion, I thought the concept of a Geth party member was totally awesome. However, I think the key factor in my previous statement was that Legion was unable to make a subjective decsion, he had no objective consencious, so he decided to let Sheppard choose.

Modifié par scotchtape622, 26 juillet 2010 - 12:28 .

[Kroesis-]

[quote]scotchtape622 wrote...

[quote] Why only strong
military action against an organic species and not wiping them out? [/quote]
I don't want to go into advanced military strategy, but essentially, you can suppress an organic species' miltary capabilities, but if you do police actioin on the Geth, their actions are impossible to predict. They do not communicate in the same way as we do.

[quote]Would you want to control an organic species if theire possibly hostile? [/quote]
We do, it is called laws and government.[/quote]
A hostile species won't recognise your laws and/or government.

[quote]

[quote]how do you know the Perseus Veil isn't enough? [/quote]
Because the Veil does not have infinite resources[/quote]
The Geth do not require infinite resources

[quote]
[quote]how do you know the geth want to grow? [/quote]
Because they continually build more Geth.[/quote]
Where have you seen this? Besides, the Geth may want to grow, so do Organic based lifeforms

[quote][quote] it's not logical, as starting a war with every species in the galaxy is
MORE damaging to their potential. [/quote]
Incorrect. After the war is over, the Geth would have no opposition. They would have full control of the Galaxy, and would have essentially infinite potential.
[quote]2) It's all based upon your assumption about the geth.
3) It
contradicts what we know about the geth. [/quote]
Incorrect. My belief, that organics hinder the growth of synthetics, is a fact.[/quote]

Please cite your 'facts'

[quote]

[quote]You mean when people have invaded their territory!  [/quote]
According to wikipedia:
An invasion is a military offensive consisting of all,
or large parts of the armed
forces of one geopolitical entity aggressively entering territory controlled by
another such entity, generally with the objective of either
conquering, liberating or re-establishing control or authority over a
territory

Not random civilian freitors that are just minding their own business.
[/quote]
This article is about military invasions. For other uses, see Invasion (disambiguation).
 
If you're going to cite something, do so with the appropriate citation.

[quote][quote] But you've said geth sentience is irrelevant as you would still wipe
them out[/quote]
I said that I don't want them to exist under their own control. They should be under the control of the Councel, just like the Humans, Turians, Asari, and every other sentient being (assuming the Geth are sentient)[/quote]

Not every sentient being is under the the control of the council

[quote][quote]It means there is a great deal of uncharted space out there that could
have resources. And don't pretend to know what is behind the Perseus
Veil and how much room for growth there is. [/quote]
Actually, assuming that the Veil is the Perseus Arm from real life, I know exactly how much room there is for growth. And it isn't infinite.[/quote]

Do you also know how much resources are there and to what extent the Geth want to expand to (considering that their aim for the future is one mega structure housing all geth)?

[quote]


[quote]How do organics damage their potential exactly?[/quote]
Because we use up terrirtory and resoures.[/quote]

We do, but do the Geth want our territory and resources? How much do they have at the moment, how long will it last and what are their aims for the future?

[quote][quote]According to BioWare, the geth are both sentient and a species. You're
wrong. [/quote]
No, they are wrong, you have to be biological to be a species.[/quote]
Perhaps you are correct now, apparently not in that day and age. With new knowledge and time comes revision of definitions.

[quote]And even if they said they are sentient, we are basing whether or not they are sentient by the information they have given us through the story. The Alliance Military doesn't have Bioware telling them whether it is morally correct to destroy the Geth or not.[/quote]

Unless I'm mistaken, the Alliance military isn't planning to wipe them out


[quote][quote]Also,
when is the last time a civilian ship was attacked, and how do you know
if the true geth or the heretics did it?[/quote]It had to be the true geth, because the Heretics have not existed very long.[/quote]

Oh? How long since the split?

[quote]And your issue is that
you seek to control them because of how they exist. I would guess that
means if you found some easy way to control organics (indoctrination?)
you would do it if you could?[/quote]We do control organics, through laws and governments. I just want oversight and regulations on the Geth, assuming a peaceful resolution can be found.
[/quote]

Again, not all organics are controlled by the council and hostile species would not recognise the laws and government.

[Inverness Moon]

scotchtape622 wrote...

I try to make my decsions objectivly too. I also like Legion, I thought the concept of a Geth party member was totally awesome. However, I think the key factor in my previous statement was that Legion was unable to make a subjective decsion, he had no objective consencious, so he decided to let Sheppard choose.

I think it is more like the geth have been doing the whole consensus thing for 300 years and it has worked pretty well for them. I don't think Legion is going to suddenly move beyond that while Shepard is around for him to defer to.

If Legion was on a time limit, the geth within him could have easily decided to follow whatever course of action the majority of them wanted in an it's-better-than-nothing approach. It's not the same kind of consensus, but it is something.

[Inverness Moon]

wiggles89 wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

I try to make my decsions objectivly too. I also like Legion, I thought the concept of a Geth party member was totally awesome. However, I think the key factor in my previous statement was that Legion was unable to make a subjective decsion, he had no objective consencious, so he decided to let Sheppard choose.

The way interpreted it was that the programs, because of their subjectivity, were unable to achieve the consensus they desired. Because of that, they deferred to Shepard because he/she wouldn't have that hindrance.

Hm, I think that is a better explanation than mine.

[scotchtape622]

[quote]A hostile species won't recognise your laws and/or government. [/quote]You say species, but most species are individual. Each member of that species can make their own choices.

Also, they will recognise your laws while under military force.

[quote] The Geth do not require infinite resources[/quote]
In the vast long term, yes they do. So does humanity.

[quote]
Where have you seen this? Besides, the Geth may want to grow, so do
Organic based lifeforms
[/quote]
Its been stated that more Geth have been built. It is also the logical conclusion that the Geth models today are not the same as the Geth models from the Morning War.

And that fact the Organic based lifeforms continue to grow is even more evidence for my argument.

[quote]Please cite your 'facts'
[/quote]

Simple logic, organics use resources. The more resources we use, the less resources the Geth can use.

[quote] This article is about military invasions. For other uses, see Invasion (disambiguation).
 
If
you're going to cite something, do so with the appropriate citation.
[/quote]Well, their point was that they were invading. It is easy to assume that if a faction takes military action against a percieved invasion, that it would be wise to use a military context.

[quote] Not every sentient being is under the the control of the council[/quote]Yes, and they are criminals and bad for the galaxy (for example, the Batarians use slaves)

[quote]Do you also know how much resources are there and to what extent the
Geth want to expand to (considering that their aim for the future is one
mega structure housing all geth)? [/quote]I don't, but such a structure would need to be maintained, and the Geth would still have to use Mobile platforms.

Adding on to that, assuming that the Geth want to survive as long as they can, that would include a future over millions of years, even to the point to when they have to leave this Galaxy. They are advanced enough to consider this future, a future where it would be difficult to coexist with organics.

[quote] We do, but do the Geth want our territory and resources? How much do
they have at the moment, how long will it last and what are their aims
for the future?
[/quote]Even if their only aim is to continue their existance, the Veil would eventually run out of resources, even if it is because of the instable suns.

[quote] Perhaps you are correct now, apparently not in that day and age. With
new knowledge and time comes revision of definitions.
[/quote]The Geth are in a completly different group than "species." One of the key parts of the definition of a species is being organic.

[quote] Unless I'm mistaken, the Alliance military isn't planning to wipe them
out[/quote]That isn't the point. The Alliance doesn't have Bioware giving them the Codex, or even what Sheppard knows. From their perspective, the only reason not to attack the Geth is time and money.

[quote]Oh? How long since the split? [/quote]After 2162, when Sovereign became active.

[quote] Again, not all organics are controlled by the council and hostile
species would not recognise the laws and government.[/quote]
Again, then they are criminals and should be treated as a threat.

[quote]The way interpreted it was that the programs, because of their
subjectivity, were unable to achieve the consensus they desired. Because
of that, they deferred to Shepard because he/she wouldn't have that
hindrance.[/quote]Well then I suppose it is how you see the Geth. I see each "Geth" as all the programs that are contributing to the network that it is in (even if there are multiple models). If that is the case, then the subjectivity of each program does not matter, because the "Geth" act on the objective consensous from those sub programs.

Modifié par scotchtape622, 26 juillet 2010 - 01:04 .

[snfonseka]

The mistake was creating the Geth AI, in the first place.
But currently if they don't have hostile intentions why should we start unnecessary war? As long as they mind their own business, we should not try anything hostile either. Because according to the ME story humans / other races have enough other problems (including Reapers).

Modifié par snfonseka, 26 juillet 2010 - 01:07 .

[scotchtape622]

My main issue is that they don't let us see what they are doing. If they did, I'd be perfectly happy letting them exist.

[Kroesis-]

[quote]scotchtape622 wrote...


[quote]Oh? How long since the split? [/quote]After 2162, when Sovereign became active.

[/quote]

Again assumption. 2162 was when Nazara was found, not when it became active. Nazara stayed within the galaxy to check on the progress of evolution. It could have cause the Geth faction split a long time before then.

[quote]scotchtape622 wrote...


[quote]Not every sentient being is under the the control of the council[/quote]Yes, and they are criminals and bad for the galaxy (for example, the Batarians use slaves)[/quote]

Really, all species not under the control of the council are criminals? That's a sweeping statement right there. So Humans were criminals up until the point we had an embassy? You do realise that there are probably species out there that we have not come across yet?

[quote][quote]Do you also know how much resources are there and to what extent the
Geth want to expand to (considering that their aim for the future is one
mega structure housing all geth)? [/quote]
I don't, but such a structure would need to be maintained, and the Geth would still have to use Mobile platforms.

Adding on to that, assuming that the Geth want to survive as long as they can, that would include a future over millions of years, even to the point to when they have to leave this Galaxy. They are advanced enough to consider this future, a future where it would be difficult to coexist with organics.
[/quote]

Maintenance would be very little as Geth are programs not physical beings and Mobile platfors would not be continually built. I have already told you what they want for their future. Not expansion but unison.

[quote][quote] We do, but do the Geth want our territory and resources? How much do
they have at the moment, how long will it last and what are their aims
for the future?
[/quote]Even if their only aim is to continue their existance, the Veil would eventually run out of resources, even if it is because of the instable suns.[/quote]

A dyson sphere only require one powersource at any one time and it can move, possibly transit the dark space between galaxies.

[quote][quote] Perhaps you are correct now, apparently not in that day and age. With
new knowledge and time comes revision of definitions.
[/quote]The Geth are in a completly different group than "species." One of the key parts of the definition of a species is being organic. [/quote]

Yes a different group as we term it now, in the future it's apparently different according to the universe presented to us.


[quote][quote] Again, not all organics are controlled by the council and hostile
species would not recognise the laws and government.[/quote]
Again, then they are criminals and should be treated as a threat.[/quote]

Sweeping statement is sweeping

[Edit - I hate quote splitting and re-tagging!]

Modifié par Kroesis-, 26 juillet 2010 - 01:40 .

[Kroesis-]

scotchtape622 wrote...

My main issue is that they don't let us see what they are doing. If they did, I'd be perfectly happy letting them exist.

Ok, seems like a departure from what you were saying before, but I'll accept it. Not that you need anyones acceptance or approval though. I was personally just trying to get the measure of the man, so to speak, to see how your convictions held up when confronted by opposing view points.

Modifié par Kroesis-, 26 juillet 2010 - 01:46 .

[wulf3n]

scotchtape622 wrote...
My main issue is that they don't let us see what they are doing. If they did, I'd be perfectly happy letting them exist.

So now you want to exterminate them because you don't know what they are doing?
before it was because they had free will?

[scotchtape622]

Again assumption. 2162 was when Nazara was found, not when it became
active. Nazara stayed within the galaxy to check on the progress of
evolution. It could have cause the Geth faction split a long time before
then.

My bad then, I was under the impression that he didn't become active until then.

Really, all species not under the control of the council are criminals?
That's a sweeping statement right there. So Humans were criminals up
until the point we had an embassy? You do realise that there are
probably species out there that we have not come across yet?

Actually, the humans tried to activate Relay 314 illegally, making them criminals.

And I suppose I wasn't elaborate enough. All space faring governments that know of the Councel but refuse to fall under their rule are criminal states.

Who falls under that? The Batarians, the Terminus, and the Geth. (at least of those that we know of)

(stuff about resources and energy)

While in many ways you are right, you are also making the assumptions that the Geth won't change their mind, that Legion is telling the truth, and that the Geth won't use Mobile Platforms once their master server is built.

Ok, seems like a departure from what you were saying before, but I'll
accept it. Not that you need anyones acceptance or approval though. I
was personally just trying to get the measure of the man, so to speak,
to see how your convictions held up when confronted by opposing view
points.

My main issue was always that I can't trust the Geth. If they showed that they can be trusted, not just with Legion, and not just while fighting the Reapers, then they could easilly live in harmony with the rest of the galaxy. However, if they continue to be isolationist, I see no other logical action other than military action.

[Kroesis-]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Really, all species not under the control of the council are criminals?
That's a sweeping statement right there. So Humans were criminals up
until the point we had an embassy? You do realise that there are
probably species out there that we have not come across yet?

Actually, the humans tried to activate Relay 314 illegally, making them criminals.

And I suppose I wasn't elaborate enough. All space faring governments that know of the Councel but refuse to fall under their rule are criminal states.

Who falls under that? The Batarians, the Terminus, and the Geth. (at least of those that we know of)

Only in the eyes of the Citadel races, Humans were unaware that they were doing something against a law set out by an at that point, unknown governing system. Also you cannot summary call all individuals of a race criminals just because they do not recognise your system of law. That's akin to calling the United Kingdom a criminal state if they'd not joined the European council and refused to recognise it. The Council is not universal, they make laws and rules for their associated races, not all-sweeping galatic law. Don't forget the Rachni too. Also do the Krogan have a representative in the council or an embassy, I can't recall (been a while since I played ME1).

(stuff about resources and energy)

While in many ways you are right, you are also making the assumptions that the Geth won't change their mind, that Legion is telling the truth, and that the Geth won't use Mobile Platforms once their master server is built.

Quite right, I am making assumptions based on the status quo, only because I have no evidence to the contrary.

Modifié par Kroesis-, 26 juillet 2010 - 03:36 .

[Kroesis-]

[Bah, double post.]

Modifié par Kroesis-, 26 juillet 2010 - 03:15 .

[scotchtape622]

Only in the eyes of the Citadel races, Humans were unaware that they were doing something against a law set out by an at that point, unknown governing system. Also you cannot summary call all individuals of a race criminals just because they do not recognise your system of law. That's akin to calling the United Kingdom a criminal state if they'd not joined the European council and refused to recognise it. The Council is not universal, they make laws and rules for their associated races, not all-sweeping galatic law. Don't forget the Rachni too. Also do the Krogan have a representative in the council or an embassy, I can't recall (been a while since I played ME1).

See, I didn't call all members of that race criminals, I called the government a criminal government. The only official space faring governments that do not recognize Citadel law are the Geth and Batarians, along with various Terminus system "governments." The Batarian government supports slavery and criminals, while the Geth destroy any ship that comes near their territory.



Also, the Krogan do not have a Citadel representative, because there is not one "Krogan government," instead they are divided into tribes.

[Mr.Caine]

Shandepared wrote...

They do nothing of the sort. That's just you projecting your own emotions onto Legion. Keep in mind that to communicate with you effectively Legion needs to carefully choose its wording in ways that you would understand. Legion speaks for your benefit, otherwise it would communicate purely in its natural form in which such language would not be used and I doubt you'd be able to mistake his statements for emotion.

I don't know if you noticed but It seems Bioware is heading in the direction of giving the Geth... feelings and emotions. It seems ME2 could have there way of showing us (the audience) a taste of whats to come in ME3 in terms of the Geth. Given with Legion, Xen, I'm pretty sure a Paragon-Renegade decision is going to be made on behalf of the Geth (a critical one).

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Only in the eyes of the Citadel races, Humans were unaware that they were doing something against a law set out by an at that point, unknown governing system. Also you cannot summary call all individuals of a race criminals just because they do not recognise your system of law. That's akin to calling the United Kingdom a criminal state if they'd not joined the European council and refused to recognise it. The Council is not universal, they make laws and rules for their associated races, not all-sweeping galatic law. Don't forget the Rachni too. Also do the Krogan have a representative in the council or an embassy, I can't recall (been a while since I played ME1).

See, I didn't call all members of that race criminals, I called the government a criminal government. The only official space faring governments that do not recognize Citadel law are the Geth and Batarians, along with various Terminus system "governments." The Batarian government supports slavery and criminals, while the Geth destroy any ship that comes near their territory.

Also, the Krogan do not have a Citadel representative, because there is not one "Krogan government," instead they are divided into tribes.

You don't understand how politics and international/interstellar politics work, do you? Yes, ideally having one unified code of governance (such as Citadel Law or for a more realistic example United Nations Law) would be great, but in practice it doesn't work out that way.

To denounce an entire government as "criminal" just because they don't obey some unified law is absurd. If that were the case the entire Western world should be in hostilities with Saudi Arabia by now. 

And the problem with Batarians isn't because they can legally have slaves. It's the fact that they kidnap people, those from other races, in pirate raids and subject them to slavery. If the Batarians stuck to their own damn territory and enslaved other Batarians then no Council race has a right to criticize their culture/government/watever.

Perhaps most importantly, the fact that the Geth do not obey Citadel laws have absolutely nothing to do with whether they are sentient/sapient. 

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

scotchtape622 wrote...
Actually, the humans tried to activate Relay 314 illegally, making them criminals.

And I suppose I wasn't elaborate enough. All space faring governments that know of the Councel but refuse to fall under their rule are criminal states.
 

This is absolutely bovine fecal matter. "Join our club or you're a criminal government"? Good grief, are you serious?

scotchtape622 wrote...My main issue was always that I can't trust the Geth. If they showed that they can be trusted, not just with Legion, and not just while fighting the Reapers, then they could easilly live in harmony with the rest of the galaxy. However, if they continue to be isolationist, I see no other logical action other than military action.

We can't trust Iran or North Korea either. They're also isolationist. Pretty sure if you sent an airplane into their airspace that they'd do their best to shoot it down. Therefore, the only logical action that Obama can take is invade them and wipe them off the map.

Explain, how is that logical? Why does another people/nation need to show that they can be trusted? Should you even be allowed to use the word logical?

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

Shandepared wrote...

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

Explain, how is that logical? Why does another people/nation need to show that they can be trusted? Should you even be allowed to use the word logical?

They need to if they want to have good relations with their neighbors and don't want to invite hostilities and/or sanctions.

I think you need to stop throwing around the word 'logical'.

If I don't want to have "good relations" with my neighbor, I don't have to. That is not being criminal, that's me not wanting to be your friend. And I'm pretty sure you get that a lot. 

Fail Shand. 

[scotchtape622]

Volus, I can't take your points seriously if you are constantly throwing around insults. Just a tip.

[Kroesis-]

Well, bar any insults that may have been said, Volus makes several good and valid points.