452 réponses à ce sujet

[Terraneaux]

Shandepared wrote...

They do nothing of the sort. That's just you projecting your own emotions onto Legion. Keep in mind that to communicate with you effectively Legion needs to carefully choose its wording in ways that you would understand. Legion speaks for your benefit, otherwise it would communicate purely in its natural form in which such language would not be used and I doubt you'd be able to mistake his statements for emotion.

By Occam's Razor, you're full of ****.  

[scotchtape622]

Fine Kroesis, I'll look at them 

You don't understand how politics and international/interstellar
politics work, do you? Yes, ideally having one unified code of
governance (such as Citadel Law or for a more realistic example United
Nations Law) would be great, but in practice it doesn't work out that
way.

To denounce an entire government as "criminal" just because
they don't obey some unified law is absurd. If that were the case the
entire Western world should be in hostilities with Saudi Arabia by now. 

And
the problem with Batarians isn't because they can legally have slaves.
It's the fact that they kidnap people, those from other races, in pirate
raids and subject them to slavery. If the Batarians stuck to their own
damn territory and enslaved other Batarians then no Council race has a
right to criticize their culture/government/watever.

First off, I do have a much better understanding of politics than you might think.

Secondly, it is not absurd to denounce a goverment as criminal. We do it today:

http://en.wikipedia....rs_of_Terrorism

Thirdly, saying that the Council can't critize the slave culture of the batarians is essentially the same as saying that the West cannot critize the oppression of women in the Middle East. In both cases, the oppressed are losing basic rights that should be given to all sentient beings.

Perhaps most importantly, the
fact that the Geth do not obey Citadel laws have absolutely nothing to
do with whether they are sentient/sapient. 

I never argued that...

This is absolutely bovine fecal matter. "Join our club or you're a
criminal government"? Good grief, are you serious?

I didn't say that it is a good thing, clearly you don't understand politics as much as you claim you do.

We can't trust Iran or North Korea either. They're also isolationist.
Pretty sure if you sent an airplane into their airspace that they'd do
their best to shoot it down. Therefore, the only logical action that
Obama can take is invade them and wipe them off the map.

There are a few big issues with your argument:

1. Iran doesn't kill any military or civilian that gets into/gets near their borders.
2. Iran still communicates with the outside world.
3. We have CIA Core Collectors all over Iran, so we have an idea of what they are doing.
4. Iran is located right near one of our biggest allies, Israel, and is looking for any excuse to go to war.

If Iran was in a position like the Geth are, you better believe the only logical action would be war.

Explain, how is that logical? Why does another people/nation need
to show that they can be trusted? Should you even be allowed to use the
word logical?

Do you understand what you are saying? It is logical to be untrustworthy?

In order for nations to coexist peacefully, a level of trust must be built, or you get World War I.

If I don't want to have "good relations" with my neighbor, I don't have
to. That is not being criminal, that's me not wanting to be your friend.
And I'm pretty sure you get that a lot.

If I was your neighbor, and my cat went into your yard, and you shot it, you bet I'd be angry. The same with Citadel civilians.

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

scotchtape622 wrote...
First off, I do have a much better understanding of politics than you might think.

Great, then you should have no trouble keeping up.

scotchtape622 wrote...
Secondly, it is not absurd to denounce a goverment as criminal. We do it today:

http://en.wikipedia....rs_of_Terrorism

Of course we do. However, when dealing with "criminal" and "isolationist" nations the only logical course of action is not military; otherwise, we would be invading North Korea. Agreed?

You, on the other hand, claimed that because the Geth are both isolationist and criminal (for not obeying Citadel law in Terminus space, which is itself ridiculous because the Council has no jurisdiction there), we should use military force and wipe them out if they don't prove themselves to us.

Again, how is that logical?

scotchtape622 wrote...
Thirdly, saying that the Council can't critize the slave culture of the batarians is essentially the same as saying that the West cannot critize the oppression of women in the Middle East. In both cases, the oppressed are losing basic rights that should be given to all sentient beings.

Yeah, and we turn a blind eye as women in Saudi Arabia get raped and then get jailed/lashed for reporting it to the cops. And Saudi Arabia still remain our closest Allies in the Middle East.

I thought you said you were familiar with politics?

scotchtape622 wrote...

This is absolutely bovine fecal matter. "Join our club or you're a
criminal government"? Good grief, are you serious?

I didn't say that it is a good thing, clearly you don't understand politics as much as you claim you do.

This doesn't happen in politics. Being part of the "club" doesn't mean a state is not criminal (Iran and North Korea are members of the United Nations) and not being part of the "club" does not make a nation a criminal state (Taiwan).

Again, "join our club or you're a criminal state" is ridiculous.

scotchtape622 wrote...

We can't trust Iran or North Korea either. They're also isolationist.
Pretty sure if you sent an airplane into their airspace that they'd do
their best to shoot it down. Therefore, the only logical action that
Obama can take is invade them and wipe them off the map.

There are a few big issues with your argument:

1. Iran doesn't kill any military or civilian that gets into/gets near their borders.
2. Iran still communicates with the outside world.
3. We have CIA Core Collectors all over Iran, so we have an idea of what they are doing.
4. Iran is located right near one of our biggest allies, Israel, and is looking for any excuse to go to war.

If Iran was in a position like the Geth are, you better believe the only logical action would be war.

First of all, um, no, that's not logical at all.

Secondly, the political situation with the Geth is more similar to North Korea (which you conveniently left out for Iran).

Thirdly, CIA Core Collectors? WTF are you talking about?

Fourth, you bet your ass that if we sent an airplane into or close to Iranian airspace that it will get intercepted and shot down (just like the Geth). And if Western civilians can even get CLOSE to the Iranian border (look at a map, Iran is not exactly easy to get to on foot) that they'll get killed or kidnapped and then beheaded on Internet TV.

scotchtape622 wrote...

In order for nations to coexist peacefully, a level of trust must be built, or you get World War I.

Absolutely false.

scotchtape622 wrote...
If I was your neighbor, and my cat went into your yard, and you shot it, you bet I'd be angry. The same with Citadel civilians.

Actually, no. First of all, the Geth are in the Terminus systems, where the Council has no jurisdiction. Nobody obeys Citadel Law in the Terminus, why should the Geth.

Secondly, if your cat tried to kill me before, I'd shoot it without hesitation if it was in my backyard. Just like how the Quarians tried to exterminate the Geth before - the Quarians didnt leave the Geth with a great impression on organics, just like I don't have a good impression of your cat after it tried to eat me.

Thirdly, fine, I shot your cat. Is your only logical option to take military action and murder me? Fine, the Geth destroyed a few spaceships - let's exterminate them.

I thought you were good with politics?

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

[double post]

1. Iran doesn't kill any military or civilian that gets into/gets near
their borders.
2. Iran still communicates with the outside world.

The only communication with the outside world Iran has is when other nations are trying to convince it to stop its nuclear weapons/power programs. Otherwise, it might as well be a hole.

BTW, this is the map of Iran. Tell me how to get to it on foot to prove that the Iranians won't shoot kill you as you approach the border. Now tell me that Iran won't shoot your airplane down if you approached their airspace.

Like it or not, if the Geth should, logically, be wiped out, then Iran should be too. And North Korea. Your argument would apply to all three states.

Modifié par V0luS_R0cKs7aR, 26 juillet 2010 - 08:01 .

[Kikaimegami]

Terraneaux wrote...

By Occam's Razor, you're full of ****.  

This is far funnier than it has any right to be.

[Talnoy2690]

Bad_sheep wrote...

The geth are machines and should be treated as such, treating with the same standard as living beings is incorrect. Point being that organics have priority over any created intelligence. Look forward to reading your posts.

Thing is; you forget to take into account when intelligence ceases to be created and is self creating.

If an artificially created being can self-actualize and start building on itself, it becomes a sentient being. It's no longer a machine; just because it's made of wires and metal means nothing. Humans are just machines made up of different stuff than the geth are - where we have blood and muscles, they have hydraulics and servos. It's two sides of the same coin.

So, I think treating an entire culture as a machine, when it's clearly not, is morally wrong.

[scotchtape622]

Oh gosh...

[quote]Of course we do. However, when dealing with "criminal" and
"isolationist" nations the only logical course of action is not
military; otherwise, we would be invading North Korea. Agreed? [/quote]
The only logical course of action is not military? What is that supposed to mean? Of course there are situations when military intervention would be logical.

Adding to that, just because our government doen't invade NK, doesn't mean that they are taking a logical course of action.

Thirdly, NK is not one of the most powerful military forces in the world, unlike the Geth.

[quote] You, on the other hand, claimed that because the Geth are both
isolationist and criminal (for not
obeying Citadel law in Terminus space, which is itself ridiculous
because the Council has no jurisdiction there), we should use military
force and wipe them out if they don't prove themselves to us. [/quote]The Council has "jurisidiction" everywhere, just like the UN has "jurisdiction" everywhere. It is the same with the Geneva convention, someone can be tried for war crimes, even if they didn't agree to the laws set up there.

[quote]Yeah, and we turn a blind eye as women in Saudi Arabia get raped and
then get jailed/lashed for reporting it to the cops. And Saudi Arabia
still remain our closest Allies in the Middle East.
[/quote]Who is "we"? I certainly don't accept that.

Also, if you are so familiar with politics, you would know that Israel is our closest ally in the ME.

[quote]This doesn't happen in politics. Being part of the "club" doesn't mean a
state is not criminal (Iran and North Korea are members of the United
Nations) and not being part of the "club" does not make a nation a
criminal state (Taiwan).

Again, "join our club or you're a
criminal state" is ridiculous. [/quote]Certainly you are right, in the real world. However, the only major factions that are not part of the Citidel are: Batarians, Collectors, Geth, and the Migrant Fleet.

Only one of those four are not criminal states, and the one that isn't was a member of the council until they got kicked out.

[quote] the political situation with the Geth is more similar to North Korea
(which you conveniently left out for Iran).[/quote]North Korea, while working on its nuclear program, cooperated with the UN and allowed inspectors to oversee the shut down of its nuclear facilities. The Geth do not allow organics even near its space.

[quote]Thirdly, CIA Core Collectors? WTF are you talking about? [/quote]The CIA has operations going on in Iran and North Korea. We have, even if barely, an idea of what is happening in both nations. This is different with the Geth, because for all we know they are building the Death Star.

[quote] Fourth, you bet your ass that if we sent an airplane into or close to
Iranian airspace that it will get intercepted and shot down (just like
the Geth). And if Western civilians can even get CLOSE to the Iranian
border (look at a map, Iran is not exactly easy to get to on foot) that
they'll get killed or kidnapped and then beheaded on Internet TV.
[/quote]Sounds like a lot of hypothetical conjecture here. In the case of the Geth, it actually has happened.

[quote]Absolutely false.
[/quote]Thank you for your clear, concise, and logical argument, filled with reasoning and evidence.

[quote]Actually, no. First of all, the Geth are in the Terminus systems, where
the Council has no jurisdiction. Nobody obeys Citadel Law in the
Terminus, why should the Geth.
[/quote]"I was just doing what the other kids were doing!"

The actions of criminals do not justify the actions of the Geth.

[quote]Secondly, if your cat tried to kill me before, I'd shoot it without
hesitation if it was in my backyard. Just like how the Quarians tried to
exterminate the Geth before - the Quarians didnt leave the Geth with a
great impression on organics, just like I don't have a good impression
of your cat after it tried to eat me. [/quote]No, it would be more like a dog (the Quarians) tried to kill you before, and you tried to kill my cat (civilians) for no logical reason.

[quote] Thirdly, fine, I shot your cat. Is your only logical option to take
military action and murder me? Fine, the Geth destroyed a few spaceships
- let's exterminate them. [/quote]No, I call the police and you answer for your crimes. The Police enter your home, do a search, find out what you are doing, and why you did it. You then go to prison. (or jail, depending on the state or country)

[quote] [/quote]

[Kroesis-]

scotchtape622 wrote...
The Council has "jurisidiction" everywhere, just like the UN has "jurisdiction" everywhere. It is the same with the Geneva convention, someone can be tried for war crimes, even if they didn't agree to the laws set up there.

It was my understanding that you can be tried if your country had previously entered the agreement. Those people tried, who's country haven't agreed to the terms may be tried without their presence and arrested if they put foot on UN member soil.

Modifié par Kroesis-, 26 juillet 2010 - 08:35 .

[scotchtape622]

That's how it is, and I would say the Morning War would fall under "war crimes."



The Geth occupied Quarian space, an area that was under the rule of the Citadel, therefore, the Geth are under the Citadel's "jurisdiction." At least, that is what a lawyer would say

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

[quote]scotchtape622 wrote...
Adding to that, just because our government doen't invade NK, doesn't mean that they are taking a logical course of action.[/quote]

I think it's logical not to waste the lives of thousands of soldiers just because North Korea is being North Korea. Dear god, I hope you're not in the government. 


[quote]scotchtape622 wrote...
Thirdly, NK is not one of the most powerful military forces in the world, unlike the Geth.[/quote]

So because they are powerful, we have even more reason to attack them? Are you being serious?


[quote]scotchtape622 wrote...
The Council has "jurisidiction" everywhere, just like the UN has "jurisdiction" everywhere. It is the same with the Geneva convention, someone can be tried for war crimes, even if they didn't agree to the laws set up there.[/quote]

Play the game again. The Council has no jurisdiction in the Terminus systems. 

Here, I google'd it for you: http://masseffect.wi...erminus_Systems

"The Terminus Systems are...beyond the space administered by the Citadel Council...These systems are populated by a loose affiliation of minor species, united only in their refusal to acknowledge the political authority of the Council or adhere to Citadel Conventions."

So again, if NOBODY in the Terminus obeys Council Law, why should the Geth?

[quote]scotchtape622 wrote...
[quote]Yeah, and we turn a blind eye as women in Saudi Arabia get raped and
then get jailed/lashed for reporting it to the cops. And Saudi Arabia
still remain our closest Allies in the Middle East.
[/quote]Who is "we"? I certainly don't accept that.[/quote]

That's great that YOU don't, but YOU are not a country. The United States is. The United Kingdom is. The Canadians. We are all allied with Saudi Arabia. 

Politics buddy.

[quote]scotchtape622 wrote...
Also, if you are so familiar with politics, you would know that Israel is our closest ally in the ME.[/quote]

No, they aren't and also, completely irrelevant to the discussion. The fact is, the U.S. enjoys very close ties with Saudi Arabia despite them oppressing women. 

[quote]scotchtape622 wrote...
[quote] the political situation with the Geth is more similar to North Korea
(which you conveniently left out for Iran).[/quote]North Korea, while working on its nuclear program, cooperated with the UN and allowed inspectors to oversee the shut down of its nuclear facilities. The Geth do not allow organics even near its space.[/quote]

The Geth also do not lob ballistic missiles over the Sea of Japan. The Geth also do not randomly sink South Korean Navy ships in international waters. You can't win this.

[quote]scotchtape622 wrote...
[quote]Thirdly, CIA Core Collectors? WTF are you talking about? [/quote]The CIA has operations going on in Iran and North Korea. We have, even if barely, an idea of what is happening in both nations. This is different with the Geth, because for all we know they are building the Death Star.[/quote]

The CIA has operations everywhere. That's their job, as an Intelligence Agency. Their presence (or lack of presence) should not be a legitimate reason for attacking another country.

Attacking the Geth because we can't spy on them is again lunacy. 

[quote]scotchtape622 wrote...

The actions of criminals do not justify the actions of the Geth.[/quote]

What actions? The Geth have not DONE anything. They kept to their side of the Veil for 300 years.

You're being retarded about this - you're basically saying that the Geth should come out of the Veil, start OPENLY obeying Citadel Law in the Terminus (when NOBODY else is) to PROVE their trustworthiness to the Council?

Are you for real? Like, you're an actual person that exists?

[quote]scotchtape622 wrote...
No, I call the police and you answer for your crimes. The Police enter your home, do a search, find out what you are doing, and why you did it. You then go to prison. (or jail, depending on the state or country)[/quote]

WTF? Who goes to jail for shooting a cat in their own backyard?!?

Modifié par V0luS_R0cKs7aR, 26 juillet 2010 - 08:51 .

[Kroesis-]

scotchtape622 wrote...

That's how it is, and I would say the Morning War would fall under "war crimes."

The Geth occupied Quarian space, an area that was under the rule of the Citadel, therefore, the Geth are under the Citadel's "jurisdiction." At least, that is what a lawyer would say

No, because in real world terms the Geth as a species or 'faction' didn't sign up to any treaty or law. It's not an area, it's the governing body which has to sign up.

[scotchtape622]

Alright, Volus's troll level's have reached ridiculous levels now...

No, because in real world terms the Geth as a species or 'faction' didn't sign up to any treaty or law. It's not an area, it's the governing body which has to sign up.

Well, theoretically, the Geth and Quarians were all "citizens" of Quarian space, making the Geth just as legally responsible as the Quarians.



I'm not saying that it makes much sense, but it is likely that the Citadel has plenty of legal loopholes that would allow for such logic.

[Kroesis-]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Alright, Volus's troll level's have reached ridiculous levels now...

No, because in real world terms the Geth as a species or 'faction' didn't sign up to any treaty or law. It's not an area, it's the governing body which has to sign up.

Well, theoretically, the Geth and Quarians were all "citizens" of Quarian space, making the Geth just as legally responsible as the Quarians.

I'm not saying that it makes much sense, but it is likely that the Citadel has plenty of legal loopholes that would allow for such logic.

I can't comment on Citadel legal loopholes, but I guess it's possible.

[ShamieGTX]

Bad_sheep wrote...

While reading in this forum, I got the impression that the majority of commentors approved on the existance of the geth and the idea that we should seek coexistance with them.
However, I can't seem to understand why. In my opinion, any AI is a threat to organic life as they can be manipulated into doing awful stuff (see heretics), yet people still tend to refuse the irradication of geth under the pretense that they haven't done anything wrong and it is morally wrong to dispose of them.
But why should it be wrong?
The geth are machines and should be treated as such, treating with the same standard as living beings is incorrect, even Legion says it if you chose a renegade dialog during his loyalty mission (don't remember what dialog though). Point being that organics have priority over any created intelligence.
So what should be done? I think ressources should be spent at rewiring the geth so their AI becomes a VI and if that doesn't work, then we should outright destroy them before they can cause any harm.
Anyone else share my opinion? Do some people disagree? If so why?
Look forward to reading your posts.

Legion explained the Geths Choosed to follow Sovereign 

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Alright, Volus's troll level's have reached ridiculous levels now...

Heh, figures you'd play the troll card to save some dignity. Also, you will now be known as the person who thinks that people get arrested and put in prison for shooting a cat in their own backyard.

[Sparda Stonerule]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

Alright, Volus's troll level's have reached ridiculous levels now...

Heh, figures you'd play the troll card to save some dignity. Also, you will now be known as the person who thinks that people get arrested and put in prison for shooting a cat in their own backyard.

Wait wait, whoa. Are you seriously suggesting it should be alright for someone to shoot a cat in their own backyard? You know killing animals for pleasure is one of the signs of a serial killer. Remind me to stay away from you.

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

Of course not - I'm not gonna ask you to torture yourself and go read the lovely discussion I had with scotchtape, but basically on planet Earth in the real world, people would probably get fined for shooting a neighbors cat/dog that was trespassing into their backyard on first offense. And if said dog had a history of trying to eat (or exterminate, since in this analogy the dog is really a Quarian) said shooter, then the shooter probably won't be fined at all, and would've received a pat on the back by the local police officer.



It was his analogy, gone wrong.

[Sparda Stonerule]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

Of course not - I'm not gonna ask you to torture yourself and go read the lovely discussion I had with scotchtape, but basically on planet Earth in the real world, people would probably get fined for shooting a neighbors cat/dog that was trespassing into their backyard on first offense. And if said dog had a history of trying to eat (or exterminate, since in this analogy the dog is really a Quarian) said shooter, then the shooter probably won't be fined at all, and would've received a pat on the back by the local police officer.

It was his analogy, gone wrong.

I know I was merely being snarky due to text walls, don't worry about it I did actually read it.

[wulf3n]

scotchtape622 wrote...
That's how it is, and I would say the Morning War would fall under "war crimes."

The Geth occupied Quarian space, an area that was under the rule of the Citadel, therefore, the Geth are under the Citadel's "jurisdiction." At least, that is what a lawyer would say

Not necessarily. To be guilty of a "crime" you need to be proven to have to things 
1) Actus Reus - A guilty Act.
2)Mens Rea - A guilty mind.

Theres no question about whether or not the Geth actions were wrong. But we still don't know if they were at a level of intelligence to comprehend the difference between hostile and non-hostile targets.

[scotchtape622]

Yes, but if you were to compare the Geth to a murdering sociopath, they have a guilty act, without a guilty mind, but I would rather have the killer in a prison or asylum instead of allowing him to roam the streets.

[UpDownLeftRight]

Shandepared wrote...
Secondly, the geth aren't alive. They're computer programs and a computer program is not alive.

Geth are computer programs.(Multiple programs)
You are a sum of many programs. Pain, love, hate, hunger. A beating heart. Senescence. Reparation of damaged tissue. All are programmed responses. You don't even have free will.
Oh, and don't claim that you truly have a free will. You won't come off as exceptionally educated.

Shandepared wrote...
Until it's proven otherwise I won't assume that consciousness is possible without an organic brain.

Neither has it been proven that something organic is a necessity for a simulation of a counsciousness. Human knowledge is limited to Earth. Nothing is known either way outside of Earth. Assuming something either way is inept.

Shandepared wrote...
If you're refusing to associate with the rest of
the global (or galactic) community then you're going to be considered a
rogue regime, even criminal. The majority decides what is and isn't law,
most especially when they can enforce it.

It's not a galactic community. Council space is almost one percent of the galaxy.
That doesn't mean that it's "law". It just means: They want to do this. The word "law" is just a bad excuse to justify it.

And those who truly can enforce their will have done so every 50.000 years.

Modifié par UpDownLeftRight, 27 juillet 2010 - 12:39 .

[UpDownLeftRight]

Shandepared wrote...
You're forgetting about the hardware.

A brain. So? You're still nothing more than a machine. Since you don't even have free will it is hard to define you as "Free" and "Alive". You're as much a slave as the Geth were 300 years ago.

Modifié par UpDownLeftRight, 27 juillet 2010 - 12:49 .

[wulf3n]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Yes, but if you were to compare the Geth to a murdering sociopath, they have a guilty act, without a guilty mind, but I would rather have the killer in a prison or asylum instead of allowing him to roam the streets.

I agree, but the geth aren't really roaming the streets, they keep to themselves in the perseus veil, and in 300 years they only came out once, and even that was a only a small faction of geth.