452 réponses à ce sujet

[LorDC]

Bad_sheep wrote...
In my opinion, any AI is a threat to organic life as they can be manipulated into doing awful stuff (see heretics)

Putting aside that organics easily does awful stuff without any manipulation, the whole human history shows us that humans can be manipulated as easily as geth. They are not better or worse than us in this regard.

Bad_sheep wrote...
yet people still tend to refuse the irradication of geth under the pretense that they haven't done anything wrong and it is morally wrong to dispose of them.

They've done wrong stuff. Quarian exile was their mistake. But everybody makes mistakes. Or should we eradicate salarians for uplifting krogans?

Bad_sheep wrote...
But why should it be wrong?
The geth are machines and should be treated as such, treating with the same standard as living beings is incorrect, even Legion says it if you chose a renegade dialog during his loyalty mission (don't remember what dialog though).

They are sentient and self-conscious machines and that's big difference. I don't want to go into philosophical discussion about nature of intelligence but treating geth as usual machines is wrong(the whole Geth-Quarian history shows this). About Legion's words: I believe he wanted to say "your morals not necessary applies to us" not "treat us like toasters".

Bad_sheep wrote...
Point being that organics have priority over any created intelligence.

Why? As Shand likes to say everyone is entitled to what he can grab and hold on to. Geth conquered their freedom. They proved their right to "live".

Bad_sheep wrote...
So what should be done? I think ressources should be spent at rewiring the geth so their AI becomes a VI and if that doesn't work, then we should outright destroy them before they can cause any harm.
Anyone else share my opinion? Do some people disagree? If so why?
Look forward to reading your posts.

That would be waste of resources especially when Reapers are about to come. I don't want to say that geth should live and eradicating them will be genocidal crime. I just don't see enough reasons to start war with them.

PS Your post is basically racist. It could be distilled into "Geth are not organic and thus should be destroyed".

[Bad_sheep]

Could have been a priority problem. I imagine the geth were programed not to harm organics and not to get harmed, maybe just not in that order. There is nothing naive in my argument =/

[Pacifien]

Bad_sheep wrote...
Could have been a priority problem. I imagine the geth were programed not to harm organics and not to get harmed, maybe just not in that order. There is nothing naive in my argument =/

Well, not everyone probably considers the Three Laws of Robotics... Especially if they never thought their computer would be more than a VI. Now that bit was pretty naive.

[Sajuro]

Pacifien wrote...

Bad_sheep wrote...
Could have been a priority problem. I imagine the geth were programed not to harm organics and not to get harmed, maybe just not in that order. There is nothing naive in my argument =/

Well, not everyone probably considers the Three Laws of Robotics... Especially if they never thought their computer would be more than a VI. Now that bit was pretty naive.

I'm starting to think that the laws of robotics were never written in the ME universe. Not even the human A.I.s  have been programmed with those in mind.

[Pacifien]

Sajuro wrote...
I'm starting to think that the laws of robotics were never written in the ME universe. Not even the human A.I.s  have been programmed with those in mind.

EDI seems to have worked out okay. There was that system on Luna, again thought to be little more than a VI. Maybe these people need to consider writing the laws of robotics into their VI before the Shepard VI destroys us all.

[Pacifien]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...
Is there any confirmed human-designed AI besides E.D.I. that proves your point? The only other confirmed AIs are the Geth and that AI from ME1 on the presidium which was designed by a little thief who probably does not qualify as an AI expert ...

Both the Hannibal system on Luna and the Geth were designed to be VIs. I think the AI on the Citadel was also not supposed to actually be an AI. So it would seem all these deadly AIs were supposed to be VIs. I think people need to stop and consider where VI ends and AI begins, 'cause accidental AIs just pop up everywhere.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Pacifien wrote...
I'm really trying not to come across as a **** here, but can I just go one discussion on these forums without that damn trope site being brought into the debate? Just once...

Agreed. Seeing that link one more time will cause me to break something.

[SandTrout]

It would be inaccurate to say that I "approve" of the continued existence of the Geth, separate from the Heretics. Rather, I accept their existence. Taking action against them because they are a potential threat is not an appropriate course of action at the present. They pose no immediate threat, less, actually, than certain organic species such as the Batarians, which routinely attack Human space.



Their philosophical 'right to live' is a null point to me, as they are simply alien, so they are either a threat to be extinguished or an ally. We do not yet have the resources to wipe every potential alien threat from the galaxy, as well as the looming threat of the Reapers at our proverbial doorstep. I treat the Geth the same way as any organic alien species not because I consider them equal, but because they are either a liability or an asset.

[Kroesis-]

Shandepared wrote...
Secondly, the geth aren't alive. They're computer programs and a computer program is not alive.

How do you know? On what pretext is that comment based? You're either looking at them from a biological perspective which is obviously flawed or you're only using your limited understanding of AI. They're Intelligent and aware, the only difference is that theirs is a technological existance not a biological existance.

[Qilune]

LorDC responded better than I could about the Geth, but I was gonna say how I think of the Geth as children in regards to their existence. They process at a faster rate than us, but they're still trying to develop themselves and understand concepts of existence, function, cause and effect, by studying organics. They're dangerous of course, no denying that, but who isn't dangerous in the ME galaxy?

The main faction seems to think co-existence is favorable. At least Legion seems to think/say so. The Geth defended themselves against the Quarians because the Quarians were scared of the implications of losing control over their creations and wanted to destroy them, out of fear. (edit) And the Quarians most likely lost because they had grown so dependent on the Geth.

The main faction Geth want to build their own future. I say let them. Shep's given the opportunity to help steer them towards a "peaceful" co-existence. I'd warn them not to be too trusting, just like how the heretics "mapped" the main faction and Legion was surprised/upset about it.

Heretics looked at the Reapers as gods and the pinnacle of organic/synthetic existence. Heretics only made up about 5% of total Geth. Says so in the game. Just throwing that bit of info in here. Let's hope rewriting their programming protects the main faction from being re-written to accept the Reaper-loving heretics "Truth."

(edit) Oh, and don't feel personally attacked for stating your opinion on the matter of the Geth, I like that these topics are open for discussion. =)  I think about the movie I, Robot or the TV show Battlestar Galactica. When a race develops such a total dependence upon intelligent technology to survive, I think its in trouble. Let's hope EDI doesn't turn into VIKI... *shifty eyes*

Modifié par Qilune, 25 juillet 2010 - 06:33 .

[kondel]

Kroesis- wrote...

Shandepared wrote...
Secondly, the geth aren't alive. They're computer programs and a computer program is not alive.

How do you know? On what pretext is that comment based? You're either looking at them from a biological perspective which is obviously flawed or you're only using your limited understanding of AI. They're Intelligent and aware, the only difference is that theirs is a technological existance not a biological existance.

Thumbs up, dude.
It is clearly stated that geth (AIs in general) are sentient; whether or not you believe i'ts possible to create a sentient program is irrelevant. In this game they are.

Modifié par kondel, 25 juillet 2010 - 06:27 .

[Kroesis-]

Shandepared wrote...

Kroesis- wrote...

How do you know?

No brain, no mind.

I see. You are looking at them via a biological perspective. Thus your comment is inherently flawed.

Modifié par Kroesis-, 25 juillet 2010 - 06:34 .

[kondel]

Shandepared wrote...

Kroesis- wrote...

How do you know?

No brain, no mind.

.

Our brain functions in sending a bunch of nerve signals (and a few other things too). Who says there isn't another way in which the functions in the brain can work.
You know, electrical signals. (pretty much nerve signals)

[Kroesis-]

Shandepared wrote...

Kroesis- wrote...

I see. You are looking at them via a biological perspective. Thus your comment is inherently flawed.

I'm comparing them to the only sentient beings know exist and geth share none of their traits. Therefore I see no reason to believe they are actually alive.

You may not believe that they're alive, but that's only because you cannot or are incapable of looking beyond flesh and blood. Their traits may be different but your comparing biological traits to technological traits which are obviously going to be different.

[Bad_sheep]

Honestly, after reading all these comments I can only come to this conclusion.

My OP can be very rationnal or completely rascist/genocidal depending on whether you consider the geth as live being or as mere robots. Thus, none of the comments on this thread can be proven wrong or right unless you can prove that the geth are the same as us.

Therefore, I propose that the topic be shifted towards the following question:

Are AI's to be considered as sentinent beings?

[Kroesis-]

Shandepared wrote...

kondel wrote...

Our brain functions in sending a bunch of nerve signals (and a few other things too). Who says there isn't another way in which the functions in the brain can work.

Until it's proven otherwise I won't assume that consciousness is possible without an organic brain.

Your assumption is not fact. What are the defining characteristics of conciousness?

[Bad_sheep]

I know this might pass as a dumb comment, but I'm dead serious.

Did anyone ever ask the geth on why they don't want to be killed?