452 réponses à ce sujet

[Giggles_Manically]

This is like arguing about if humans are actually aware or just very clever animals.



I am not getting into this one, since philosophy has been arguing in circles for thousands of years.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Pacifien wrote...
I bet everyone feels better if they can easily predict and control their lives, but that's not gonna happen.

Hmm? You mean the geth? Well if not they must be destroyed. To me they are simply an AI that has gone rampant and should be treated as such. Contained and purged. But ideally they could be used to delay the reapers prior to this.

Modifié par ReconTeam, 25 juillet 2010 - 08:55 .

[Kroesis-]

ReconTeam wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
I bet everyone feels better if they can easily predict and control their lives, but that's not gonna happen.

Hmm? You mean the geth? Well if not they must be destroyed. To me the are simply an AI that has gone rampant and should be treated as such. Contained and purged.

Only a small percentage of them have actually gone rampant from what we've seen under the influence of the Reapers. If you are meaning their initial rebellion against the Quarians, then considering that they were just fighting for their survival and have left the Quarians alone after they left, and don't even appear to threaten other Biological species. I wouldn't call them rampant or rogue.

Would you also condemn an entire Biological species, such as Humans, to death if a portion of their population went rampant and started killing people?

Modifié par Kroesis-, 25 juillet 2010 - 09:02 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

I don't know if it was the fault of the quarian programmers, but they built an AI that was too advanced and grew out of control. They had every reason to "shut them down" at that point. Though I can't fault the geth for fighting back if I view them as machines.

Considering the quarian record for incompetence, I have my doubts they could retake their homeworld. After more such failed attempts, the geth may sooner or later attempt to eliminate the quarians completely. Yet I don't think it would be wise for the Systems Alliance to try and clean up what is not their mess. The best case scenario in my opinion, is a project like Overlord proving to be a success.

Modifié par ReconTeam, 25 juillet 2010 - 09:16 .

[Kroesis-]

The Quarians built them to be tools and for defence but they also allowed their programs enough leeway to grow adapt and eventually become sentient.
I can understand their motivations to shut them down as they were becoming something that wasn't designed but it was too late at that point.
I would agree that it was the Quarians fault (those who did the original programming design). Incompetence, perhaps.. naive, definitely.

I also agree that the Quarians wouldn't be able to take back their home world, not without outside assistance, and that that very path may lead the Geth to eventually decide that the Quarians have gotten to the point where they threaten their future.

Now the question is, would we stand back and stay out a Quarian/Geth war? Or do we decide to help the Quarians under the belief that the Geth may target other Biological species next and risk a self fulfilling prophesy? Or do we do something pro-actively and try to make some sort of dialogue between the two races before it comes to that?

Modifié par Kroesis-, 25 juillet 2010 - 09:31 .

[CroGamer002]

GETH RULEZ DAMN IT!

Modifié par Mesina2, 25 juillet 2010 - 09:56 .

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Kroesis- wrote...

Your assumption is not fact.

Neither is yours.

Shand, your arguments against the geth would look like less of a joke if you didn't consistently do this, along with selectively ignoring what people say when it is inconvenient for you.

You're not doing a very good job of playing the devil's advocate here.

[statesman1114]

Pro-geth, all the way. The good ones at least. I believe that they should coexist with the quarians. There'll be problems, but who cares?

[Giggles_Manically]

http://www.cleverbot.com/

Try this site out if you want to see what stage of AI is avaliable right now.

Since Legion is far more advanced than this he either is sentient, or incredibly advanced.

Just watch out this thing is wierd and a little rude. I asked it if it played video games and got this:
Do you play Video games?
The Question is DO YOU play video games?
Yes I do, But i asked you if you played them.
No you didnt.

ME:

[Giggles_Manically]

Look at this:

Try it.
I think you are extremely clever and I'm glad I'm talking to you!
You didnt answer my question.
Which question?
Are you a machine?
Human is a machine too, just a biological one.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 25 juillet 2010 - 11:15 .

[wulf3n]

Bad_sheep wrote...

I know this might pass as a dumb comment, but I'm dead serious.
Did anyone ever ask the geth on why they don't want to be killed?

Not in those words, but Legion does say, that geth believe all things have a right to decide their own destiny/path...i forget the last word.

Like you said before the argument is more, are the geth actually Intelligent, or are they just a Simulation of Intelligence.

It seems a lot of people think of they're brains quite highly, that they are some mystical thing, that gives us Consciousness, Intelligence etc, but it's really not much different from a computer, and once we understand how to interpret the signals/patterns of the brain we'll be able to reprogram people.

[Spartas Husky]

Bad_sheep wrote...

That doesn't make it any better, if some geth joined the reapers with their own free will that just comes to prove how unstable they are. I feel that doing nothing about them is only gonna come back at some point and bite us in the ass.

So... you will wipe out an entire group of people, because a small part of that group are religious zealots??.....

nice...

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Yet because the geth are a different form of life, you judge them by a different standard than you judge yourself or other organics.

For one, Saren did not join the Reapers of his own free will. Secondly, the geth aren't alive. They're computer programs and a computer program is not alive. 

Saren chose to serve Sovereign and the Reapers. He believed this was the best way to save the races of the galaxy. Indoctrination came later.

And you know, the thing about artificial life is it does have the word "life" in there.

They are sentient, they evolve, they think, they do not wish to die, they feel sentiment, they desire freedom, they listen to music, and that is enough for me.

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

Spartas Husky wrote...

Bad_sheep wrote...

That doesn't make it any better, if some geth joined the reapers with their own free will that just comes to prove how unstable they are. I feel that doing nothing about them is only gonna come back at some point and bite us in the ass.

So... you will wipe out an entire group of people, because a small part of that group are religious zealots??.....

nice...

I know eh? Just imagine, IRL, if Bad_sheep was in charge of the War on Terror...he'd probably do his best to wipe out the Islamic people because they're too "unstable." What a laughable argument.  

[Neuzhelin]

Bad_sheep wrote...

While reading in this forum, I got the impression that the majority of commentors approved on the existance of the geth and the idea that we should seek coexistance with them.
However, I can't seem to understand why. In my opinion, any AI is a threat to organic life as they can be manipulated into doing awful stuff (see heretics), yet people still tend to refuse the irradication of geth under the pretense that they haven't done anything wrong and it is morally wrong to dispose of them.
But why should it be wrong?
The geth are machines and should be treated as such, treating with the same standard as living beings is incorrect, even Legion says it if you chose a renegade dialog during his loyalty mission (don't remember what dialog though). Point being that organics have priority over any created intelligence.
So what should be done? I think ressources should be spent at rewiring the geth so their AI becomes a VI and if that doesn't work, then we should outright destroy them before they can cause any harm.
Anyone else share my opinion? Do some people disagree? If so why?
Look forward to reading your posts.

sen·tience play_w2("S0269700") (snshns, -sh-ns)n.
1. The quality or state of being sentient; consciousness.
2. Feeling as distinguished from perception or thought.

I will make it even more clear. Geth are sentient. Enslaving and/or trying to destroy them already went wrong before. Unless you role play renegade and seek total human domination, I see no reason for a new conflict.

Also, I happen to see humans as biological machines (very outdated ones too). Every feeling is a chemical process in us just as every geth decision is an impulse. So yea, I would go for co-existance.

Modifié par Neuzhelin, 26 juillet 2010 - 12:25 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm fairly certain the mass effect universe flat out states that AI and Geth are alive. They are self aware, sentient, capable of making their own decisions, everyone else in the galaxy considers them to be alive. The Codex mentions certain individuals feel that "artificial life" is demeaning to them so they were alternately termed "synthetic". Legion is obviously alive. He doesn't act like a VI.

[Anezay]

wiggles89 wrote...

Edit: That's an interesting word to filter. It starts with a "naht" & ends with a "zee".

They're trying to defeat Goodwin. No one beats Goodwin.

[Pacifien]

Nightwriter wrote...
Saren chose to serve Sovereign and the Reapers. He believed this was the best way to save the races of the galaxy. Indoctrination came later.

In order for Saren to know about Sovereign's plans, Sovereign had to communicate with Saren. Sovereign's mere presence indoctrinates. This means from the moment Saren stepped onto the ship, he could have been under Sovereign's influence. And likely was.

[Nightwriter]

Pacifien wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
Saren chose to serve Sovereign and the Reapers. He believed this was the best way to save the races of the galaxy. Indoctrination came later.

In order for Saren to know about Sovereign's plans, Sovereign had to communicate with Saren. Sovereign's mere presence indoctrinates. This means from the moment Saren stepped onto the ship, he could have been under Sovereign's influence. And likely was.

I don't often say this but... there really is no evidence given to support that.

Mass Effect Wiki simply says this about Saren:

"Through the ancient Reaper, he learned the fate of the many civilizations of
eons past. Instead of using Sovereign as a weapon, as he had intended,
Saren made it his goal to save the races of the galaxy by aiding the Reapers,
proving the worthof organics to the Reapers so that they might be spared.
He believed that servitude was the logical answer, instead of instinctively
fighting to the finish."

Regardless, we do know that Sovereign specifically refrained from indoctrinating Saren because it would have impaired his functionality and therefore his usefulness. His mind was intentionally preserved, until he began to become a problem because of Shepard's persuasiveness. Personally, I think the decision was initially his own.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 26 juillet 2010 - 01:00 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Is it just me or is the whole Quarian vs Geth conflict very similar to the Palestine/Israel conflict today?

[Caesar914]

Bad_sheep wrote...

While reading in this forum, I got the impression that the majority of commentors approved on the existance of the geth and the idea that we should seek coexistance with them.
However, I can't seem to understand why. In my opinion, any AI is a threat to organic life as they can be manipulated into doing awful stuff (see heretics), yet people still tend to refuse the irradication of geth under the pretense that they haven't done anything wrong and it is morally wrong to dispose of them.
But why should it be wrong?
The geth are machines and should be treated as such, treating with the same standard as living beings is incorrect, even Legion says it if you chose a renegade dialog during his loyalty mission (don't remember what dialog though). Point being that organics have priority over any created intelligence.
So what should be done? I think ressources should be spent at rewiring the geth so their AI becomes a VI and if that doesn't work, then we should outright destroy them before they can cause any harm.
Anyone else share my opinion? Do some people disagree? If so why?
Look forward to reading your posts.

Organics are already a threat to each other, a threat to themselves, a threat to everything. Synthetics are no different. It's just a matter of trust vs. paranoia.

[Giggles_Manically]

True but seriously the Quarians should just find a new home, instead of whining around space.



While I think Xen and Gerrel are idiots, and Koris is too soft the Quarians cant win a war, nor would the geth take to kindly to an invasion. This will most likely be a big theme in three.