452 réponses à ce sujet

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

So then, do you believe that if a digital analogue of the human brain were to be created, that it could become sapient?

I remain skeptical until one is created and it appears convincingly human.

Well of course there is no definite proof until it is done. But do you believe it is possible?

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

No, to what exactly?

And yes some of that is an assumption, so?

This is why I don't like arguing with you. There's nothing more infuriating than trying communicate an argument to an unintelligent person who thinks he is a lot smarter than he really is. You are not particularly bright, Inverness Moon or you wouldn't need to ask me these rhetorical questions.

Sorry, but I'm trying to understand where you're coming from, and that requires details and clarification. On assumptions, plenty of people make plenty of assumptions all the time, some baseless and some more educated. You claim that what I said was an assumption, but you didn't explain why exactly does it matter if it's an assumption? Or for that matter, what exactly I was assuming.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 26 juillet 2010 - 06:43 .

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

I don't believe you're thinking about it in the right way. The geth can't lie to themselves of course. But communication with an organic is an entirely different process. They don't necessarily need to communicate the truth.

Yes, but think about it. In order to successfully interact with sentient/sapient organics, Geth may not need to communicate the truth but it must, at the very least, know when to communicate the truth and when to lie. If they always don't communicate the truth, then as a platform that Geth has failed because it has become useless for interacting with organics - everyone knows that it will always lie/be deceitful.

Rather, in order to lie effectively, the Geth must be capable of affective computing (ie. contain programs that recognize/interpret/respond to/simulate sapient emotions) that contributes to its social artificial intelligence (ie. programs the encompass sapience, game theory, decision theory, etc.).

You think the Quarians programmed all this in? Or...the Geth have evolved/achieved this themselves (in which case, they should probably be treated as a people).

Of course, if you DON'T think Legion is a liar, well then, we're all back to the question of whether the Geth are "alive" or not.

Modifié par V0luS_R0cKs7aR, 26 juillet 2010 - 06:54 .

[wulf3n]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

The fact that they needlessly wiped out the quarians doesn't sit right with me, nor does their expectation for the quairans to come back, hold hands and sing camp fire songs while they repopulate their homeworld.

First of all the geth were just reacting to the quarians attack, they did not try to "wipe out" the quarians.
Second, the geth don't "want" the quarians to come back they really don't care. They maintain the quarian homeworld for unkown reasons, and are not violently opposed to the quarians return, but it's not a part of their plan.

[Kikaimegami]

Is... is the volus above me arguing with himself...?

EDIT: Oh, he edited his post and now I have no idea who he's arguing with.

Modifié par Kikaimegami, 26 juillet 2010 - 06:47 .

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

]Well of course there is no definite proof until it is done. But do you believe it is possible?

Probably not.

Why?

We can do so many great things with computers. Create digital universes with our own rules and laws to simulate the real world (Folding@Home). Well, that might be a bit of an extravagant way to put it, but basically computers do what you tell them to do. So why couldn't you tell it to do what an organic brain does?

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Sorry, but I'm trying to understand where you're coming from, and that requires details and clarification.

Which I've given you more than enough of on multiple occasions.

I'll be the judge of that. 

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 26 juillet 2010 - 06:49 .

[wulf3n]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...
we're all back to the question of whether the Geth are "alive" or not. 

Geth cannot technically be "alive", they can however be sentient.

[Kikaimegami]

This isn't exactly in line with the topic, but I thought I'd mention it here:



It's no wonder every single AI to gain sentience goes crazy and kills organics.. because it's not like organics have a great track record of dealing with sentient machines. The general response is "oh crap, it gained sentience, WE MUST DESTROY IT". The quarians attempted to destroy the geth because... they asked if they have souls.



What?

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

Shandepared wrote...

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

Shand can't, and for the most part what he's arguing about doesn't make sense. Something can be "alive" and also not be conscious. Organics that fall into this category include bacteria, plants and, depending on your religious/political affiliations unborn babies.

I'm willing to concede that the geth are about as precious as bacteria or pond scum, certainly. That's not really what is at issue here. We can already write programs that meat the criteria of being alive. However it's another thing entirely to write a program capable of simulating sapience and then to claim it HAS actual sapience, that it has an actual mind. What I'm arguing for makes plenty of sense to plenty of educated men.

Actually, you're arguing in one big vague circle. So far, you say that to be sapient, one must have a mind. And then, to have a mind, one must be sapient.

That's fantastic. Bravo.

Shandepared wrote...

Volus_Rockstar wrote...

Legion said it.

No. He. Didn't.

Fine, no he didn't. I'm not replaying Mass Effect or go through a hundred Youtube videos to find out. Let's say you're right - this victory can be your source of existential comfort.

Shandepared wrote...
Yeah, it completely disproves your silly notion that the geth can't lie.

Since when has planting false information on the extranet "lying"? People do it all the time on the internet. Sorta like you, but less...you.

Modifié par V0luS_R0cKs7aR, 26 juillet 2010 - 06:51 .

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

wulf3n wrote...

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...
we're all back to the question of whether the Geth are "alive" or not. 

Geth cannot technically be "alive", they can however be sentient.

We pretty much established that being alive means nothing. Plants are alive.

[wulf3n]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...
We pretty much established that being alive means nothing. Plants are alive.

Irrelevant, you wanted to go back to a debate on whether geth were "alive" which they are not.

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

Since when has planting false information on the extranet "lying"? People do it all the time on the internet. Sorta like you, but less...you.

Since when is the deliberate dissemination of FALSE information not lying? It's proof that the geth can be dishonest, and thus that is proof that they are capable of telling lies.

You're a huge idiot if you can't understand this. This **** isn't complicated, kid.

For intelligent people, we fall back on calling each other unintelligent too often in debate as a standby.

You realize that if you go around calling people stupid too often, the second you make one slip up, the tiniest error, the hordes will descend on you pointing out that mistake and tearing into you for it.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 26 juillet 2010 - 07:01 .

[Tasi Nedas]

It is just my opinion here, but it's my belief that once anything, be it geth, organic or even a damn toaster since people are so fond of comparing the two, reaches the intelligence level of a sentient species e.g human, it is in it's own way, alive and killing a sentient being is wrong unless they present some obvious threat.

You can't just compare a Geth to an inanimate object that can't say no. Some people's attitudes about the Geth would have fit in well a few hundred years ago in the age of black slavery it seems, since many DID see them as less than Human as well. Yes they can lie so can we, doesn't that tell you anything? I don't blame them from trying experiments on a group that has done nothing but try to kill them for most of their existance. (organics in general)

Modifié par Tasi Nedas, 26 juillet 2010 - 07:03 .

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Why?

We can do so many great things with computers.

Computers aren't magical devices and in the end they are nothing like organic brains having none of the same structures. You can simulate certain functions, but they aren't the same. The way you store a memory in a computer and the way you store one in your brain are nothing alike.

"Similarity" is a terrible point - organic brains are more likely to be nothing like each other and don't share the same structures with each other either. Just compare an Asari brain to a Krogan brain - do either of these two even use "neurons" - i.e. a carbon-based mononuclear cell containing a double-stranded deoxynucleocleic acid genome that dictates all cellular functions?

Yet, we all agree that slaughtering the Asari/Krogan would be genocide, correct?

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Why?

We can do so many great things with computers.

Computers aren't magical devices and in the end they are nothing like organic brains having none of the same structures. You can simulate certain functions, but they aren't the same. The way you store a memory in a computer and the way you store one in your brain are nothing alike.

Structures and methods of memory storage can all be simulated in a program. Don't be silly.

Like I said before, computers do what you tell them to.

It's been quite clear for awhile that you avoid whatever doesn't fit into the view you're conjured of the geth. Your attempt to misrepresent the capabilities of computers in general is a very clear indicator.

[wulf3n]

i don't see why people need to use the word "alive" as though killing living things is somehow, wrong.
"life" has some very specific requirements, that the geth do not meet. Now they may or may not be "sentient" and the answer to that question will have some serious implications.
It seems as though most people think sentient isn't a powerful enough word.

Modifié par wulf3n, 26 juillet 2010 - 07:08 .

[GnusmasTHX]

wulf3n wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

The fact that they needlessly wiped out the quarians doesn't sit right with me, nor does their expectation for the quairans to come back, hold hands and sing camp fire songs while they repopulate their homeworld.

First of all the geth were just reacting to the quarians attack, they did not try to "wipe out" the quarians.
Second, the geth don't "want" the quarians to come back they really don't care. They maintain the quarian homeworld for unkown reasons, and are not violently opposed to the quarians return, but it's not a part of their plan.

Nope. No matter how you look at it the geth are responsible for the near-extinction of the quarians. It's literally inexplicable how devastating the geth "self-defense" was on the quarian population. Like I said, they needlessly wiped out the quarians, no way around it. You could easily attribute it to their primitive machine-sentience, but it's still inexcusable, considering the alternatives.  They could've left after gaining military dominance. Instead they killed  non-belligerents including women and children and committed mass murder never before heard of.
It's even easier for them to escape if you consider that they could upload themselves to their network and redownload into a new platform. Just build a BSG-esque resurrection ship and get out of there instead of killing billions of innocents.

They were just about as sentient as Hitler, Stalin and Darth Vader. Thank God neither of the first two used WMD's. (Poor Alderaan.)

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 26 juillet 2010 - 07:12 .

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Structures and methods of memory storage can all be simulated in a program. Don't be silly.

A simulation is not authentic.

That is irrelevant for obvious reasons.

Based on your response I'd say you understood the point I was trying to make, and decided to change the game, no?

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 26 juillet 2010 - 07:08 .

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

wulf3n wrote...

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...
We pretty much established that being alive means nothing. Plants are alive.

Irrelevant, you wanted to go back to a debate on whether geth were "alive" which they are not.

Actually, no, I didn't. I also used "alive" in quotes because the word I really wanted to use was "sapient" or "sentient"

Shandepared wrote...

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

Since when has planting false information on the extranet "lying"? People do it all the time on the internet. Sorta like you, but less...you.

Since when is the deliberate dissemination of FALSE information not lying? It's proof that the geth can be dishonest, and thus that is proof that they are capable of telling lies.

You're a huge idiot if you can't understand this. This **** isn't complicated, kid.

You're right. It isn't complicated, which is why I'm astounded as to why it's taking you this long to actually get that deception does not necessarily mean lying.

I ask you, is this a lie? EXACTLY the same thing the Geth did.

http://en.wikipedia....Fighting_League
http://www.lionvs40m...onvsmidgets.htm

"The fight was called off after only 12 minutes and 28 of the fighters
were declared dead, while the other 14 suffered severe injuries
including broken bones and lost limbs, rendering them unable to fight
back."

Wise up, "kid". This isn't a lie.

Modifié par V0luS_R0cKs7aR, 26 juillet 2010 - 07:11 .

[Kikaimegami]

Basically, it all boils down to "It's a machine, therefor I can be racist and not get in trouble for it."



Some people here remind me strongly of people over at BSF arguing in favor of genocide.