452 réponses à ce sujet

[wulf3n]

GnusmasTHX wrote...
Nope. No matter how you look at it the geth are responsible for the near-extinction of the quarians. It's literally inexplicable how devastating the geth "self-defense" was on the quarian population. Like I said, they needlessly wiped out the quarians, no way around it. You could easily attribute it to their primitive machine-sentience, but it's still inexcusable, considering the alternatives.  They could've left after gaining military dominance. Instead they killed  non-belligerents including women and children and committed mass murder never before heard of.
It's even easier for them to escape if you consider that they could upload themselves to their network and redownload into a new platform. Just build a BSG-esque resurrection ship and get out of there instead of killing billions of innocents.

They were just about as sentient as Hitler, Stalin and Darth Vader. Thank God neither used WMD's.

 wow, i really can't tell if this is a joke or if your serious.

[wulf3n]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...
Actually, no, I didn't. I also used "alive" in quotes because the word I really wanted to use was "sapient" or "sentient"

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...
we're all back to the question of whether the Geth are "alive" or not. 

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

Shandepared wrote...

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

You're right. It isn't complicated...

It's apparently way too complicated for you though. If you can decieve you can lie.

Actually, no. I can decieve by not telling the whole truth, and be deceitful my whole life, while incapable of telling a lie. Fact.

Astounding.

[GnusmasTHX]

wulf3n wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...
Nope. No matter how you look at it the geth are responsible for the near-extinction of the quarians. It's literally inexplicable how devastating the geth "self-defense" was on the quarian population. Like I said, they needlessly wiped out the quarians, no way around it. You could easily attribute it to their primitive machine-sentience, but it's still inexcusable, considering the alternatives.  They could've left after gaining military dominance. Instead they killed  non-belligerents including women and children and committed mass murder never before heard of.
It's even easier for them to escape if you consider that they could upload themselves to their network and redownload into a new platform. Just build a BSG-esque resurrection ship and get out of there instead of killing billions of innocents.

They were just about as sentient as Hitler, Stalin and Darth Vader. Thank God neither used WMD's.

 wow, i really can't tell if this is a joke or if your serious.

Try explaining over a billion murders in self-defense. Unless you're telling me from new born to senior, all quarians were machine-gun-toting-terminators.

The geth  killed indiscriminately and in excess.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 26 juillet 2010 - 07:15 .

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

wulf3n wrote...

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...
Actually, no, I didn't. I also used "alive" in quotes because the word I really wanted to use was "sapient" or "sentient"

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...
we're all back to the question of whether the Geth are "alive" or not. 

I bolded and underlined the important part for you just in case you miss it again.

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
That is irrelevant for obvious reasons.

Based on your response I'd say you understood the point I was trying to make, and decided to change the game, no?

No, the crux of the matter is this: is a simulated brain consciouss like a real brain is?

That's what we've been talking about this whole time. The fact that you think I've suddenly changed the topic proves to me just how lost you are in this conversation.

I was discussing the capability of a computer to be programmed to behave as an organic brain does. Authenticity is irrelevant if they can both do the same thing.

If you're asking questions like "is a simulated brain conscious like a real brain is" then you clearly don't understand what your brain basically is. Your use of the term "real brain" could be quite telling.

GnusmasTHX wrote...
Try explaining over a billion murders in self-defense. Unless you're telling me from new born to senior, all quarians were machine-gun-toting-terminators.
The geth  killed indiscriminately and in excess.

That is quite easily to explain. The geth are not individuals, they do not think like us. Did they understand quarian individuality at the time or the Morning War?

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 26 juillet 2010 - 07:20 .

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

For intelligent people, we fall back on calling each other unintelligent too often in debate as a standby.

"We"? You aren't in that group.

Well I meant as humans. I try not to call people unintelligent. There's no need for it. And it always makes me feel like a monkey in a tall tree guffawing stupidly down at another monkey on a lower branch.

Anyway, I fail to see how whether or not artificial life could ever be possible in real life has anything to do with the fictional geth and whether or not they deserve to be treated like sapients. They are sapient, and they are sentient, in this fiction. 

[Tasi Nedas]

wulf3n wrote...

i don't see why people need to use the word "alive" as though killing living things is somehow, wrong.
"life" has some very specific requirements, that the geth do not meet. Now they may or may not be "sentient" and the answer to that question will have some serious implications.
It seems as though most people think sentient isn't a powerful enough word.

You do have a good point, they are not alive in a biological sense no, they are however sentient no way around that, this means they are concious, just as you are.

Seperate from that argument imagine instead the Quarians genetically engineered a new species, living but dumb, then the quarians over generations of these creatures made adjustments to their genetic code to make them smarter and more capable of achieving tasks up to the point where they arrive at Human or Quarian level intelligence where they can question the way they live and the Quarians reacted the same, would the people in this thread be so hostile to this version of a biological Geth? Would they be more on the side of the Quarians or the theoretical biological Geth? Would you be willing to stay your hand after generations of slavery and labour until the species that created you tried to wipe you out?

[Kikaimegami]

The quarians wouldn't be around if the geth really had wanted to wipe them out, you realize.



Both sides of that conflict overreacted in excess.. it's everyone's fault. Like Paragon Shepard says: You all need to stop fighting this war or we'll all end up paying for it. It's a conflict that'll never be solved because 100% of the time, the quarians have attacked when they thought they would be victorious, but in a true battle, the geth would wipe the floor with them.

[Kikaimegami]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

They are sapient, and they are sentient, in this fiction. 

Admiral Xen disagrees.

This is your argument? Really?

*throws her keyboard* I'm so out of here.

[wulf3n]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

wulf3n wrote...

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...
Actually, no, I didn't. I also used "alive" in quotes because the word I really wanted to use was "sapient" or "sentient"

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...
we're all back to the question of whether the Geth are "alive" or not. 

I bolded and underlined the important part for you just in case you miss it again.

First you claimed you didn't say that.
If you wanted to use the word sapient or sentient why didn't you? at least the would make sense as geth are not alive nor are they "alive"

[wulf3n]

Shandepared wrote...
if the quarians hadn't fled beyond their reach. 

what reach? the geth have shown they go where ever they want, if they have a reason.

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

Shandepared wrote...

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

Actually, no. I can decieve by not telling the whole truth, and be deceitful my whole life, while incapable of telling a lie.

You are capable of telling a lie. So is a geth. There is NO statement at ALL EVER in the game that says the geth cannot lie. You need to play the game again because you've got no clue what you're talking about.

Dude, you need to calm down. This is an internet forum.

Also, it is possible for an artificial restriction on telling lies (i.e. such as a computer programmed not to tell lies) to still be deceitful by being dishonest. Therefore, being dishonest does NOT mean that you are capable of telling a lie, especially when we're talking about computer programming here, where artificial restrictions can and are likely to exist.

Ergo, there is nothing ruling out that the Geth can be deceitful while at the same time being incapable of lying.

And here I thought you were rational. Silly me.

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

Shandepared wrote...

Kikaimegami wrote...

The quarians wouldn't be around if the geth really had wanted to wipe them out, you realize.

The geth did their best to stop as many quarians as they could from escaping. The geth would have wiped them out to the last man, woman, and child if the quarians hadn't fled beyond their reach.

You need to play Mass Effect again, because that statement in any form has never appeared in the game.

And you accuse me of not knowing what's going on...

[GnusmasTHX]

Kikaimegami wrote...

The quarians wouldn't be around if the geth really had wanted to wipe them out, you realize.

Both sides of that conflict overreacted in excess.. it's everyone's fault. Like Paragon Shepard says: You all need to stop fighting this war or we'll all end up paying for it. It's a conflict that'll never be solved because 100% of the time, the quarians have attacked when they thought they would be victorious, but in a true battle, the geth would wipe the floor with them.

The point is that the geth must have reached military victory before they hit the billion-casualty mark. Yet they still hit the mark and then some. It's murder plain and simple. The geth were either completely uneducated in warfare (though unlikely because they could've Googled it) or they deliberately took genocidal action.

Of course the quarians would've done the same, and depending on your view on the geth it could be equally wrong, but they never had the chance to make this mistake.

But it's still a mistake. A big glaring fat one. A black mark on geth history if they were at all sentimental.

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

They are sapient, and they are sentient, in this fiction. 

Admiral Xen disagrees.

Nightwriter: Jews are people.

Shand: Hitler disagrees.

Like, do you see how you can take any statement and say that a lunatic disagrees with it? And yet, oddly, the statement is still true... funny how that works, isn't it?