452 réponses à ce sujet

[wulf3n]

Shandepared wrote...
17 million is an awfully small population for a space-faring species, wouldn't you agree? There are CITIES on Earth that have more people living in them.

ok fair enough. my maths skills aren't the best give me a break.

[GnusmasTHX]

Nightwriter wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Nope. No matter how you look at it the geth are responsible for the near-extinction of the quarians. It's literally inexplicable how devastating the geth "self-defense" was on the quarian population. Like I said, they needlessly wiped out the quarians, no way around it. You could easily attribute it to their primitive machine-sentience, but it's still inexcusable, considering the alternatives.  They could've left after gaining military dominance. Instead they killed  non-belligerents including women and children and committed mass murder never before heard of.
It's even easier for them to escape if you consider that they could upload themselves to their network and redownload into a new platform. Just build a BSG-esque resurrection ship and get out of there instead of killing billions of innocents.

They were just about as sentient as Hitler, Stalin and Darth Vader. Thank God neither of the first two used WMD's. (Poor Alderaan.)

Look, to everyone who's hung up on the fact that the geth damn near wiped out the quarians: basically, sh*t happens.

Both sides made mistakes. As long as something is alive, and is sentient, sh*t is going to happen. Geth, humans, animals, what have you. We all kill each other, all of us, and the geth are not the first sapient creatures to get so caught up in a war that they lost sight of things. Add to that the fact that they were practically children, and called it the Morning War, and you start to realize they didn't really have sight of things to begin with. They were still just learning what the universe was.

The quarians made a mistake bringing the geth into the world as labor. Sentient life will react to other sentient life, and that is exactly what happened here, as it has countless times throughout history. The results were disastrous. We don't know the specifics of what happened in the war, or what each side did, but it seems to me no different than any other war.

That doesn't at all make them less guilty, and I already said one might attribute it to their primitive machine sentience. 

The geth weren't created sentient. They 'evolved'. The quarian mistake was that they tried to kill them when they realized.

Still, the better man would've stopped short of genocide. It just so happens the geth were dealt the card of victor, and they didn't handle victory well. Billions of casualties must have been avoidable. It wasn't avoided. The geth were in the wrong for that.
Billions of deaths don't just happen. Either someone was trigger happy, they did it deliberately or both.

That said as long as humanity survives the war with the Reapers, I don't care so much about the quarians or geth. I only care enough to hope their conflicts look cool.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 26 juillet 2010 - 07:50 .

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

Shandepared wrote...

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

Nothing about the Geth wanting to exterminate the Quarians. There was no "War of Extermination." It was just war.

A war where you deliberately kill every man, woman, and child you can get your hands on is a war of extermination. Otherwise the geth would have fought merely to crush the quarians' ability to wage war, not their ability to exist.

Nothing in the codec (or Mass Effect universe) stated that the Geth actively hunted for defenseless women and children, or that they murdered unarmed civilians in general, or how the Quarians programmed the Geth in the first place to conduct warfare.

You just make the assumption they did based on your "99%" KIA factor. And even if they did, you absolve the Quarians of all fault, despite the fact that there is no proof that the Geth can evolve such programming on the fly unless the Quarians put it there in the first place.

Nice try though.

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Tasi Nedas wrote...

You know what? arguing this is fine, but it does not call for name calling from some arrogant person who seems to think he or she is better than someone else...

I really am better.

Seriously dude, you're not trying hard enough.

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Nightwriter: Jews are people.

Shand: Hitler disagrees.

Like, do you see how you can take any statement and say that a lunatic disagrees with it? And yet, oddly, the statement is still true... funny how that works, isn't it?

Didn't take you long to Godwin.

Xen is not a lunatic either. Her plans and goals are quite sound and reasonable. If the quarians want their homeworld back and peace with the geth ins't possible then her way is the best way.

If only your personal opinion was universal truth.

And Hitler is handy.

Tasi Nedas wrote...

I see it more like:

Civil rights campaigner: Black people deserve equal rights and freedom from slavery

Some white supremacist: I disagree they should be our slaves.

This analogy is also valid.

[wulf3n]

GnusmasTHX wrote...
Still, the better man would've stopped short of genocide. It just so happens the geth were dealt the card of victor, and they didn't handle victory well. Billions of casualties must have been avoidable. It wasn't avoided. The geth were in the wrong for that.

That would imply the geth were sapient at the time, yet all we know is that the geth were sentient.

[Chronoflect]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Nope. No matter how you look at it the geth are responsible for the near-extinction of the quarians. It's literally inexplicable how devastating the geth "self-defense" was on the quarian population. Like I said, they needlessly wiped out the quarians, no way around it. You could easily attribute it to their primitive machine-sentience, but it's still inexcusable, considering the alternatives.  They could've left after gaining military dominance. Instead they killed  non-belligerents including women and children and committed mass murder never before heard of.
It's even easier for them to escape if you consider that they could upload themselves to their network and redownload into a new platform. Just build a BSG-esque resurrection ship and get out of there instead of killing billions of innocents.

They were just about as sentient as Hitler, Stalin and Darth Vader. Thank God neither of the first two used WMD's. (Poor Alderaan.)

Look, to everyone who's hung up on the fact that the geth damn near wiped out the quarians: basically, sh*t happens.

Both sides made mistakes. As long as something is alive, and is sentient, sh*t is going to happen. Geth, humans, animals, what have you. We all kill each other, all of us, and the geth are not the first sapient creatures to get so caught up in a war that they lost sight of things. Add to that the fact that they were practically children, and called it the Morning War, and you start to realize they didn't really have sight of things to begin with. They were still just learning what the universe was.

The quarians made a mistake bringing the geth into the world as labor. Sentient life will react to other sentient life, and that is exactly what happened here, as it has countless times throughout history. The results were disastrous. We don't know the specifics of what happened in the war, or what each side did, but it seems to me no different than any other war.

That doesn't at all make them less guilty, and I already said one might attribute it to their primitive machine sentience. 

The geth weren't created sentient. They 'evolved'. The quarian mistake was that they tried to kill them when they realized.

Still, the better man would've stopped short of genocide. It just so happens the geth were dealt the card of victor, and they didn't handle victory well. Billions of casualties must have been avoidable. It wasn't avoided. The geth were in the wrong for that.

I believe the geth are still "evolving". 
It took man thousands of years to uplift ourselfs culturally and philosophically (you could even say we still haven't)
The geth weren't even sentient for more than a couple years before they were thrust into a war with an entire species. It is amazing they have worked out philosophy and ethics in a couple centuries. 

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Seriously dude, you're not trying hard enough.

Seriously dude, you need to get a new catch phrase.

I'll get a new catch phrase when you start trying harder to become less predictable.

[Tasi Nedas]

Shandepared wrote...

Tasi Nedas wrote...

You know what? arguing this is fine, but it does not call for name calling from some arrogant person who seems to think he or she is better than someone else...

I really am better.

I'm not entirely sure how to respond to replies like that

[GnusmasTHX]

Chronoflect wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Nope. No matter how you look at it the geth are responsible for the near-extinction of the quarians. It's literally inexplicable how devastating the geth "self-defense" was on the quarian population. Like I said, they needlessly wiped out the quarians, no way around it. You could easily attribute it to their primitive machine-sentience, but it's still inexcusable, considering the alternatives.  They could've left after gaining military dominance. Instead they killed  non-belligerents including women and children and committed mass murder never before heard of.
It's even easier for them to escape if you consider that they could upload themselves to their network and redownload into a new platform. Just build a BSG-esque resurrection ship and get out of there instead of killing billions of innocents.

They were just about as sentient as Hitler, Stalin and Darth Vader. Thank God neither of the first two used WMD's. (Poor Alderaan.)

Look, to everyone who's hung up on the fact that the geth damn near wiped out the quarians: basically, sh*t happens.

Both sides made mistakes. As long as something is alive, and is sentient, sh*t is going to happen. Geth, humans, animals, what have you. We all kill each other, all of us, and the geth are not the first sapient creatures to get so caught up in a war that they lost sight of things. Add to that the fact that they were practically children, and called it the Morning War, and you start to realize they didn't really have sight of things to begin with. They were still just learning what the universe was.

The quarians made a mistake bringing the geth into the world as labor. Sentient life will react to other sentient life, and that is exactly what happened here, as it has countless times throughout history. The results were disastrous. We don't know the specifics of what happened in the war, or what each side did, but it seems to me no different than any other war.

That doesn't at all make them less guilty, and I already said one might attribute it to their primitive machine sentience. 

The geth weren't created sentient. They 'evolved'. The quarian mistake was that they tried to kill them when they realized.

Still, the better man would've stopped short of genocide. It just so happens the geth were dealt the card of victor, and they didn't handle victory well. Billions of casualties must have been avoidable. It wasn't avoided. The geth were in the wrong for that.

I believe the geth are still "evolving". 
It took man thousands of years to uplift ourselfs culturally and philosophically (you could even say we still haven't)
The geth weren't even sentient for more than a couple years before they were thrust into a war with an entire species. It is amazing they have worked out philosophy and ethics in a couple centuries. 

Not really, they have 24/7 access to wikipedia.

Not just wikipedia... a super advanced future version of it.... with like...more pedia.

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

Shandepared wrote...

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

Nothing in the codec (or Mass Effect universe) stated that the Geth actively hunted for defenseless women and children, or that they murdered unarmed civilians in general, or how the Quarians programmed the Geth in the first place to conduct warfare.

Do you think there are quarians still living on the quarian worlds behind the Veil?

What does that have to do with anything? The question is, if it truly was a war of exterminantion, why didn't the Geth hunt down the Quarians as they fled the Veil? Your fanfiction about the Council deploying a fleet and stuff is nice, but something...I dunno...official? Not made up?...would be better.

Modifié par V0luS_R0cKs7aR, 26 juillet 2010 - 07:54 .

[Chronoflect]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Chronoflect wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Nope. No matter how you look at it the geth are responsible for the near-extinction of the quarians. It's literally inexplicable how devastating the geth "self-defense" was on the quarian population. Like I said, they needlessly wiped out the quarians, no way around it. You could easily attribute it to their primitive machine-sentience, but it's still inexcusable, considering the alternatives.  They could've left after gaining military dominance. Instead they killed  non-belligerents including women and children and committed mass murder never before heard of.
It's even easier for them to escape if you consider that they could upload themselves to their network and redownload into a new platform. Just build a BSG-esque resurrection ship and get out of there instead of killing billions of innocents.

They were just about as sentient as Hitler, Stalin and Darth Vader. Thank God neither of the first two used WMD's. (Poor Alderaan.)

Look, to everyone who's hung up on the fact that the geth damn near wiped out the quarians: basically, sh*t happens.

Both sides made mistakes. As long as something is alive, and is sentient, sh*t is going to happen. Geth, humans, animals, what have you. We all kill each other, all of us, and the geth are not the first sapient creatures to get so caught up in a war that they lost sight of things. Add to that the fact that they were practically children, and called it the Morning War, and you start to realize they didn't really have sight of things to begin with. They were still just learning what the universe was.

The quarians made a mistake bringing the geth into the world as labor. Sentient life will react to other sentient life, and that is exactly what happened here, as it has countless times throughout history. The results were disastrous. We don't know the specifics of what happened in the war, or what each side did, but it seems to me no different than any other war.

That doesn't at all make them less guilty, and I already said one might attribute it to their primitive machine sentience. 

The geth weren't created sentient. They 'evolved'. The quarian mistake was that they tried to kill them when they realized.

Still, the better man would've stopped short of genocide. It just so happens the geth were dealt the card of victor, and they didn't handle victory well. Billions of casualties must have been avoidable. It wasn't avoided. The geth were in the wrong for that.

I believe the geth are still "evolving". 
It took man thousands of years to uplift ourselfs culturally and philosophically (you could even say we still haven't)
The geth weren't even sentient for more than a couple years before they were thrust into a war with an entire species. It is amazing they have worked out philosophy and ethics in a couple centuries. 

Not really, they have 24/7 access to wikipedia.

Not just wikipedia... a super advanced future version of it.... with like...more pedia.

There's a difference between reading about philosophy and actually understanding it. Not only understanding, but apparently upholding it.

[Nightwriter]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

That doesn't at all make them less guilty, and I already said one might attribute it to their primitive machine sentience. 

The geth weren't created sentient. They 'evolved'. The quarian mistake was that they tried to kill them when they realized.

Still, the better man would've stopped short of genocide. It just so happens the geth were dealt the card of victor, and they didn't handle victory well. Billions of casualties must have been avoidable. It wasn't avoided. The geth were in the wrong for that.
Billions of deaths don't just happen. Either someone was trigger happy, they did it deliberately or both.

That said as long as humanity survives the war with the Reapers, I don't care so much about the quarians or geth. I only care enough to hope their conflicts look cool.

I never meant it made them any less guilty. I meant it made them no guiltier than we are when we make such mistakes.

Judge the geth by their actions, by all means. My only objection is when someone judges them by a different standard than you would an organic. When people say it's okay for the geth to be wiped out because they killed people in war, but it's not okay for oganics to be wiped because we killed people in war, it bugs me.

You seem to know more about the specifics of the geth/quarian war than I myself found out in the game. The geth appear to have left millions of quarians alive. They preserved the homeworld. They listen to quarian music. How do you know they intentionally killed women and children and civilians? Where does it say that? How do you know those people certainly did die, but as collateral damage for whatever reason? 

Modifié par Nightwriter, 26 juillet 2010 - 07:59 .

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

Shandepared wrote...

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

What does that have to do with anything?

Well if the geth weren't killing every quarian who couldn't escape then surely there should have been survivors inside the Veil and their descendents should be there now.

Mmm, perhaps. Also impossible to prove or disprove.

Also (again) has nothing to do with why didn't the Geth hunt down the surviving Quarians if it was a war of extermination.

[scotchtape622]

While the Geth are definitely Sapient (the ability of an organism or entity to act with judgment), they are arguably not Sentient, depending on your definition. Whether or not the Geth are Sentient is the biggest issue here (well, that and how big of a threat they are), not the fact that they are synthetic instead of being organic.



The issue with this topic is that the true definition on sentient is a debate that has been argued by philosophers for centuries. In my opinion, the Geth are not sentient. To me, being Sapient is being aware and sensory, while having the ability to make logical decisions. However, sentience is a quality that cannot be achieved by a machine, an ability that is emotional, illogical.

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

scotchtape622 wrote...

While the Geth are definitely Sapient (the ability of an organism or entity to act with judgment), they are arguably not Sentient, depending on your definition. Whether or not the Geth are Sentient is the biggest issue here (well, that and how big of a threat they are), not the fact that they are synthetic instead of being organic.

The issue with this topic is that the true definition on sentient is a debate that has been argued by philosophers for centuries. In my opinion, the Geth are not sentient. To me, being Sapient is being aware and sensory, while having the ability to make logical decisions. However, sentience is a quality that cannot be achieved by a machine, an ability that is emotional, illogical.

Um, dude?

"In fantasy fiction and science fiction, sapience describes an essential human property that bestows "personhood" onto a non-human. It indicates that a computer, alien, mythical creature
or other object will be treated as a completely human character, with
similar rights, capabilities and desires as any other human character."

[Inverness Moon]

scotchtape622 wrote...

an ability that is emotional, illogical.

Hold the phone. Attributing sentience to emotions doesn't seem right to me in the least. Why are emotions relevant?

Edit: And yea, I meant to bring up with Volus Rockstar (lol) said, but I got distracted by this awesome sandwich I'm eating.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 26 juillet 2010 - 08:06 .

[scotchtape622]

Um, dude?

"Sapience is often defined as wisdom, or the ability of an organism or entity to act with appropriate judgment."

It doesn't matter what wikipedia has to say about a special definition for fantasy fiction. I'm using the real definition. If you paid attention, you would see that the wikipedia section about fantasy fiction has no source, meaning that it cannot be taken seriously.

EDIT:

Inverness, obviously it depends on your definition. That is the primary debate here, and many people get Sapience and Sentience mixed:

Sapience:
Wisdom, Judgement, Perception

Sentience:
Feeling, Sensations, Experiences, Emotion

That is how I define them, Sapience being the logical part of existance, Sentience being the emotional part.

Modifié par scotchtape622, 26 juillet 2010 - 08:11 .

[Tasi Nedas]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

What does that have to do with anything?

Well if the geth weren't killing every quarian who couldn't escape then surely there should have been survivors inside the Veil and their descendents should be there now.

Mmm, perhaps. Also impossible to prove or disprove.

Also (again) has nothing to do with why didn't the Geth hunt down the surviving Quarians if it was a war of extermination.

Well he has a point...they wiped out all of their planets and chased them VERY far away from them, maybe they didn't think the quarians on the flotilla was worth chasing, not many races could survive in that condition for very long anyway or maybe they thought that they would be back in the near future. There actually is a lot of reasons for why they didn't chase them and destroy them, thinking about it did they even have space craft they could use back then? Everything is pure speculation obviously.

[GnusmasTHX]

Nightwriter wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

That doesn't at all make them less guilty, and I already said one might attribute it to their primitive machine sentience. 

The geth weren't created sentient. They 'evolved'. The quarian mistake was that they tried to kill them when they realized.

Still, the better man would've stopped short of genocide. It just so happens the geth were dealt the card of victor, and they didn't handle victory well. Billions of casualties must have been avoidable. It wasn't avoided. The geth were in the wrong for that.
Billions of deaths don't just happen. Either someone was trigger happy, they did it deliberately or both.

That said as long as humanity survives the war with the Reapers, I don't care so much about the quarians or geth. I only care enough to hope their conflicts look cool.

You seem to know more about the specifics of the geth/quarian war than I myself found out in the game. The geth appear to have left millions of quarians alive. They preserved the homeworld. They listen to quarian music. How do you know they intentionally killed women and children and civilians? Where does it say that? How do you know those people certainly did die, but as collateral damage for whatever reason? 

Common sense. Billions of people isn't just collateral, and billions obviously include women and children. Suppose the quarian population is comparable to our current population of ~6 Billion. The geth left the equivalent of the population of Chile alive. No offense but is saying the geth left 17 million alive supposed to be a consolation? Billions is a big number. 

Unless you're saying that all quarian cities are lined with military bases and strategic assets then it shouldn't have happened.  The easiest way to rack up "billions" of casualties is to nuke all/the most populous areas indiscriminately. So assuming the geth aren't completely stupid, then they did it with genocidal intent. 

There's absolutely no logical reason to rack up that high of a kill count if their objective was simply self preservation... At least by our common conventions of warfare.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 26 juillet 2010 - 08:42 .