307 réponses à ce sujet

[Drasanil]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Drasanil wrote...

DA2 feels half arsed and created a lot of resentment, no doubt modder creations would be used to 'prove' how bad it was/is.

Did I say that? No.

Maybe your definition of spite is different than mine, but it sure looks like you did. 

I said people would use created mods to make the game look bad, I never said people would make mods with that purpose, right there in plain english as you so nicely quoted and bolded for me.

Perhaps you were just  unclear in what you said. When you said that DA2 generated a lot of resentment and that the modders would make content that would "prove how bad it was/is", do you mean that the haters would use good mods as evidence that the base game sucks?

Pretty much.

Oblivion was famous for having hideously ugly characters out of the box. Many of the mods in Oblivion are all about making player characters prettier. If what you say is correct, then wouldn't Bethesda be afraid of haters "proving how bad it was/is"?

I remember the Bethsoft forums, it actually did happen and Oblivion still has a reputation as being largely unplayable with out modded content, it just also has a reputation for being pretty good with it. The difference is Bethesda basically uses it's well known player modding base a marketing tool and that's why they release toolsets.

Bioware normally markets 'entire' games, to have their current show piece be out done by community modders would reflect very poorly and serve to only draw sharper contrast to the real and percieved faults with DA2.

Oh wait. They didn't care, because it kept people interested in and playing their game, and maintained their DLC-buying audience.

Read above different strategies and approaches to it. You can't assume what is true for one company is universally true for all others.

Thinking that Bioware is holding back a toolset because they are afraid of the response of haters is silly. 

Bad press is bad press, especially if there is 'proof' to back it up, if you have mods showcasing the widely percieved faults (ie by fixing them) in your game even further you're going to want to avoid releasing modding tools that make it easier for it to happen. Why else wouldn't they? The only other reason would be milk money out of their DLC sales. 

[mordarwarlock]

Vordimier wrote...


Fans made a wedding mod for Alistair and the PC character in DA:O; imagine what people could do for DA2.

exactly, heck, some fans have already moded Companion equipment, level up weapons, new haircuts and eyes, a bunch of new weapons and the sort, now imagine what they could do with the power of a toolset....

Exept they allowed that with DA:O and nothing happened.

except it was back when Bioware had integrity and they weren't bought by EA yet

[hoorayforicecream]

Drasanil wrote...

Bad press is bad press, especially if there is 'proof' to back it up, if you have mods showcasing the widely percieved faults (ie by fixing them) in your game even further you're going to want to avoid releasing modding tools that make it easier for it to happen. Why else wouldn't they? The only other reason would be milk money out of their DLC sales. 

Bad press from who? Forum haters? Stop the presses, people on forums hate something. I've never seen that before. Oh wait, yes I have. For practically every other game in existence. 

First, I've already addressed why it's not that they wish to milk money out of DLC sales. A toolset facilitates DLC sales by keeping the game installed on peoples' machines. It facilitates more DLC sales, not less. People playing the game are much more likely to buy DLC than not playing.

There are other potential reasons for this besides the ones you offer, because the teams don't exist in a vacuum. Here are a few that are entirely plausible. Totally conjecture, but plausible.

#1. Bioware's working on two other fairly high profile projects right now that are due out in less than a year. One of them is a MMORPG (projects notorious for requiring gigantic teams) in closed beta that's already been delayed once. It's entirely possible that most of the DA2 tools programmers are working on higher priority projects (ME3, TOR, DA3). Once (one or more of) those projects get to a better place, they can transition someone onto the toolset.

#2. They incorporated middleware into DA2 that didn't exist in DAO to save time during the production of DA2, and there are legal ramifications to releasing a toolset with such software built in to the public. They would need programmer time to excise it, and build around it or replace it with something else like their old system. That amount of time may be prohibitive or it may not be, but they can't tell because of insufficient programmer attention since a toolset is a significantly lower priority than one of the other major projects that the programmers are usually working on.

#3. They don't have the QA bandwidth to make sure that the toolset doesn't explode when installed on a 4 year old PC with video card X and CPU Y. Most likely because it's all been pulled into #1.

But whatevs. Haters gonna hate.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 23 juillet 2011 - 01:40 .

[Jabba L4]

[inappropriate comment removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 23 juillet 2011 - 08:24 .

[Remois]

Well the worst thing to say about it, is that some modders could actually take upon themselves to do...

[This is a dramatic pause]

... Level design for the dungeon of the game... (note that I didn't say dungeons)

Hell how I hate to run the same dungeon over and over again... When I heard about reusing levels I thought about prefabs arranged differently... (I was even hopping about random level generation in the way daggerfall did. Horrible but at least challenging levels... It was all made by sticking prefabs together...)

As for the toolset itself I honestly don't care about the reason they don't release it... The fact is that ea usually don't offer these services to users... I'm even surprised they release DLC on pc version and not only on console... A toolset comes with an Increased cost (I think that sumarize a part of what hoorayforicecream said)... As for legal issues with middleware I'm don't know much but I assume licences may interfere with it... All we can hope is an answer... Though I still doubt we'll get one if it's a no...

If they really wanted, they still could release files specifications and then tools would be made (a bit in the way kotor would be) sure modding would be less user friendly but it would be better...
And middlewares would remain untouched...

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

It's harder for companies to sell easily crafted DLC with new items or NPC costumes if their game comes with a toolset. So my guess is no...Bioware will not release toolsets for future games since they are seemingly addicted to DLC sales lately.

[Remois]

As far as I know, Items are already made in the nexus even with grand new models and all... It doesn't stop item dlc to be bought...
I'm not against dlc look at fallout these DLC are allright... Even the origins quest dlc were correct... I don't really understand the hate about it... Especially since you wouldn't have had a toolset if there wasn't... But I buy only quest dlc now... Not because there would be fewer work from developpers but it just doesn't add enough to the game to justify to pay for it... Of course I speak only for me, some will enjoy the gain... Quest DLC though adds to the game even if it's a little... So it deserve to be paid.

I never heard people crying when a game was getting an extention (duke 3d, diablo, diablo 2, starcraft 1 etc...) now if it's called dlc and a little smaller, everybody jump (with less price)...

So it comes down to choosing what you buy...

To come back on the subject I don't really think dlc are the problem on this one...

[0x30A88]

I hope they time we're left waiting is time they use -- among DLC creation -- to improve this unoptimized software. Especially allow adding contra overriding in more cases than in DA:O, where modders would have to thread carefully when trying to extend the main campaign or add a new class.

Why does there exist a icsharpcode.sharpziplib.dll in bin_ship when the scripting is definetly not C#, more akin to C.

Modifié par Gisle Aune, 26 juillet 2011 - 02:11 .

[ARustyFirePlace]

Fallout and Oblivion dlc sold just fine on PC.

[Atakuma]

mordarwarlock wrote...

Exept they allowed that with DA:O and nothing happened.

except it was back when Bioware had integrity and they weren't bought by EA yet

Check your facts, EA bought Bioware well before Origins was released.

[Dandynermite]

[quote]Atakuma wrote...

[quote]mordarwarlock wrote...

[QUOTE]
Exept they allowed that with DA:O and nothing happened.[/QUOTE]

except it was back when Bioware had integrity and they weren't bought by EA yet

[/quote]

Yes, thats why when you load up the game, the Dragon blood forms the EA sign, it is clearly a prophecy of the future

[ARustyFirePlace]

Atakuma wrote...

mordarwarlock wrote...

Exept they allowed that with DA:O and nothing happened.

except it was back when Bioware had integrity and they weren't bought by EA yet

Check your facts, EA bought Bioware well before Origins was released.

they had planned for the toolset long before EA owned them.

[Atakuma]

ARustyFirePlace wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

mordarwarlock wrote...

Exept they allowed that with DA:O and nothing happened.

except it was back when Bioware had integrity and they weren't bought by EA yet

Check your facts, EA bought Bioware well before Origins was released.

they had planned for the toolset long before EA owned them.

So? EA could have easily squashed those plans, but they didn't.

[joriandrake]

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

It's harder for companies to sell easily crafted DLC with new items or NPC costumes if their game comes with a toolset. So my guess is no...Bioware will not release toolsets for future games since they are seemingly addicted to DLC sales lately.

this, sadly this


nearly noone would buy those if you can get or make mods with better looking/stronger equipment for free


Still, I do wish there would be a toolset, someone could make an actually good RPG campaign for DA2 then

[Elirian]

Didn't read the thread sorry, just reactivated my old EA account to say I would have bought this game right now if it had a content creation toolset included. Don't know how representative I am, but there it is.

No toolset, no sale. Good luck to you guys getting one in future.

[MonkeyLungs]

You guys are still talking about toolset?

There can be no more toolsets!

[Kaihel]

It's harder for companies to sell easily crafted DLC with new items or NPC costumes if their game comes with a toolset.

That is not true.

DLCs bring content that makes the game progress canon-wise in comparesent to mods and campaigns released by the community, as a poster said above; Oblivion and Fallout sold their DLCs just fine, or in my pov sold fantastically fine despiting them having a creation kit in each of their games. DLCs and community created content makes the game's universe expand tenfolds compared to solely DLCs, and people love that and will infact pay to take part in that kind of progressing and expanding world, look how Valve sell their games for example and also release toolsets and kits for their community to take part in creating their own maps, contents and mods for people to enjoy, completely free of charge, and in result see how far they've gotten in becomming one of the leading and famed companies in the world.

It dosen't surprise me though that money hungry companies like EA (with all due respect) cannot grasp that fact and change in today's gaming world. That's why companies like Bethesda and Valve surpass them by far in their ways of thinking progressivly and actually take into consideration what their customers want and how they're capable of polishing and expand their games, thus bringing more people into their fold. Do some research and you'll find numerous companies doing the same.

Modifié par Kaihel, 31 juillet 2011 - 02:39 .

[Sebanet]

Still waiting toolset to bought the game!

[Remois]

Sebanet >> And I think you'll wait a looooooong time. I feel stupid for thinking there was still a chance after Stanley Woo answer... I don't think it's even discussed or in planning...
It's the same as mass effect: no toolset, never was, never will... They don't owe you one and ea is not known to favor game modding or even pc gaming for that matter.

[Stradar87]

And this is why games die out so fast not allowing the fan base to exspand the game even further........Makeing the fan base pay for DLC that exspands a little bit kills the experince for me. Granted DLC is to make money....Money makes the world go round yes??? Well I for one hate the fact Bioware has not kept up with there wounderful ways and giveing us a grand Toolset to this decent game. Im just soo sad not to see what the community could do with this game ((( in my opinon bioware are just hurting them selves we are the ones who keep them makeing the games.

[Remois]

Games living to much is bad, too! From a marketing point of view you could decide to wait that a game become cheaper while you're still playing mods from another game...
Granted you have a certain amount of time reserved to game, playing mods will make you think... Does it worth it I let go of xxx game for a while to buy xxx... Since DA is a sequel (well not really but you understood), it's not totally true. But making a non modable game permit to keep the need to play up and buy games you would have otherwise ignored...

Mass effect request for a toolset was ignored and still we bought me2 and da2 so no harm done, don't you think?

What harmed da2 the most I think is the dungeons... The story, the "overly simplified rpg element", the lack of toolset... This didn't do any problem... In fact, even the console only dlc policy for deadspace 2 didn't hurt them... So be real, they really don't care...

Even if they came and say clearly that they won't release a toolset, it woluldn't hurt them...
Of course a lot will say i'll never by any ea/bioware (biowEAre?) game again, they know that won't hold for most...
It will just give more work for moderators...

[Stradar87]

Remois wrote...

Games living to much is bad, too! From a marketing point of view you could decide to wait that a game become cheaper while you're still playing mods from another game...
Granted you have a certain amount of time reserved to game, playing mods will make you think... Does it worth it I let go of xxx game for a while to buy xxx... Since DA is a sequel (well not really but you understood), it's not totally true. But making a non modable game permit to keep the need to play up and buy games you would have otherwise ignored...

Mass effect request for a toolset was ignored and still we bought me2 and da2 so no harm done, don't you think?

What harmed da2 the most I think is the dungeons... The story, the "overly simplified rpg element", the lack of toolset... This didn't do any problem... In fact, even the console only dlc policy for deadspace 2 didn't hurt them... So be real, they really don't care...

Even if they came and say clearly that they won't release a toolset, it woluldn't hurt them...
Of course a lot will say i'll never by any ea/bioware (biowEAre?) game again, they know that won't hold for most...
It will just give more work for moderators...

This is true but if we really wanted to hurt a gameing company becuase they simply dont care about us and are needs we could. We have that power becuase the consumer has that power to buy or not buy the game. I for one will say I buy full games and expansion packs well we will probly never see one again but thats all I ever bought and will continue to buy .

DLC is just a ripp off if you ask me and I put my foot down when it comes to small amounts of content that probly should of been in the full release in the first place but thats just my 2 cents. I will continue to buy Bioware Full games but not there DLC forget that. And if everyone followed this trend like me they would be forced to forget DLC and give us are Xpacks back!! and maybe..........maybe a toolset. I have seen major amounts of people sway Devs to change there ways before like in mmos and so forth so its possible.

Modifié par Stradar87, 24 août 2011 - 09:38 .

[Remois]

As consumer we have the power to hurt, the real problem is to rally enough people, words and promises are easy, but when it comes to the temptation of buying the game, a lot won't resist.... This has been tried before...

As for DLC, I won't go as far as saying about a rip off... Of course item dlc are overpriced for what they add to the game in my opinion... But I don't regret my money on the legacy dlc... Sure the reward is not that good but the quest itself was correct (It's hard to imagine I would regret my money on the game and not the dlc)
I like quest dlc... If you look at the fallout 3/nv dlc, they really add something for exemple...
Maybe it comes from the fact that games are overpriced in France but the dlc price are correct IMHO and I play on PC. I can't even imagine how console gamer can fork over 60 € (about 87 $ ) in a game...
If xpack would come back, you guessed it, it woudn't worth my money as taxes and shop would fatten the price...
It's a bit egoistic from me, but dlc are easier on my budget... And i can choose what is in my "expansion"...
Well I'm against mindless buying of all dlc that comes out, but buying good ones may drive them to better quality and more content in dlc... Well it's just my opinion though, I guess we can agree to disagree on this one...

As for the toolset, I'd really love to have one... I'm not a good modder, but i like to tinker a bit from time to time... Also I love the work of those who are good at it (look what they've done to kotor 1/2, fallout 2/3/NV the list is long ). So yeah I'd really love to... But EA is not known for their consumer friendliness...
In MMO, it's a bit different as dev are constantly working on it, the gain is not calculated the same way... But profit wise adapting modding tools is just going to increase the burn_rate... From an income point of view, it's bad: the project cost more and may take from incoming projects

That usually happens when the marketting departement become stronger than devs... Income must come fast and must be renewed with each projects... Long term income on a same product is not easily planned, oblivion is, but obviously a lot of other games failed to it... And the way it looks da1 won't have the same life line...

[nijnij]

I still wish there was a toolset. On the other hand, don't think I could even get the DA:O toolset to work so it would have to be slightly more user-friendly. Actually, rather than adding stuff, I'd love a mod that gets rid of junk, repetitive sidequests etc. I'm a completionist and I don't like having hundreds of things left to do in my game when I don't feel they're fun things . Which makes me a minimalist-completionist I guess :\\.

Modifié par nijnij, 07 septembre 2011 - 11:08 .

[Alex Macloud]

tools rather not be, EA and lack of pirates, and now people will be doing a full-fledged free DLC ...... it is not necessary, but the opinion of players for many game manufacturers simply ignore.