307 réponses à ce sujet

[tommcc]

Maverick827 wrote...

DLC has absolutely nothing to do with the toolset in Dragon Age.

The only impressive unique content coming out of the modding community are a few armor sets and weapon models (maybe seven or eight total, at the most).

Most Dragon Age modders waste their time on nudity mods, not new adventures and quests with voice acting.

Exactly. While its easy to put the blame on EA (evil publishers want more money etc. etc.), I honestly think any decision regarding the toolset will be made by Bioware. It will merely come down to whether or not they think spending precious development time on releasing a new toolset to the public is ultimately worth it - that is, if they get a solid return on their investment of time. DLC rarely ever competes with player-created content (heck, even NWN sold a boatload of DLC, despite having such a massive modding community), so Maverick hit the nail on the head by shooting down this argument.

[Maverick827]

I would love to retain the functionality of user-bug fixes, however, Perhaps a watered down toolset might be a good median if BioWare is, indeed, thinking of cutting it out.

That said, I don't see what major work needs to be done with the toolset and, thus, why it would be in a position to be scrapped. Is DA2 not being made with the same engine and toolset?

[Arttis]

If they do release the toolset...they should make it more user friendly.That is one of the problems with the current toolset supposedly.You can do a little too much.It takes a ton of effort just to do some simple things.Making a massive adventure would take quite a long time and a lot of effort.I will try my hand at the current toolset soon enough.

[tommcc]

Maverick827 wrote...

I would love to retain the functionality of user-bug fixes, however, Perhaps a watered down toolset might be a good median if BioWare is, indeed, thinking of cutting it out.
That said, I don't see what major work needs to be done with the toolset and, thus, why it would be in a position to be scrapped. Is DA2 not being made with the same engine and toolset?

The change's they'd have to make would admittedly be few in number; hence why a toolset for DAO was released in the first place. The changes they'd have to implement to make it more user-friendly and successful, however, would be considerable.

Still, even if they released a relatively unchanged toolset, that's still developer's time spent, regardless of how minor. Most other studios defend their decision to not release a toolset by claiming that the time spent on releasing one could be better spent making new areas, monsters, quests and the like. An argument I find silly (especially since a toolset would ultimately mean all of these things and more), but its a common one nontheless.

[Peranor]

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

Let me just add my voice to this request.

What made DAO superb and infintely re-playable was the tool set and all the incredible work that modders do. Don't like the vanilla armor? Mod it. Don't like the grannie panties? Well, guess what, someone made alternatives. Don't like the way that some of the companions look? Well, lookie here, some bright person offers me fifty different options!

It is unreasonable to expect the artistic vision of the game creators to scratch where every player itches - but with modding tools, everyone can morph the game the way that fits them.

In this case, I am not terribly impressed with some of the current screenshots - especially the darkspawn armor. But I am not as upset as others simply because I assume a tool set will be issued and within a few days, someone will create something that fits MY vision of how they should look.

ME is an example of a good game with limited replayability for me - no tool set, difficult and cumbersome to mod and hence, after playing a couple of times, it sits on a shelf.

DAO on the other hand, I have played literally hundreds (thousands? I need a life) of hours simply because someone is always creating something new and interesting that I want to see in game.

So, for what it is worth, I want to strongly encourage the Dev's to release a toolset. If they don't. well, I will still buy their game but I WILL think mean thoughts! :-)

I have given this post my endorsement. My thoughts exactly! Even the last part
Even if the main character has a VO I don't see why they can't release a toolset.

[KalDurenik]

If they are going to release the toolset they need to... Umh... Not give is the watered down crap version?



There are lots of problems and its horribly slow. And it should also contain ALL the things directly out of the package. Shadows / The ability to change size on things etc etc. Oh and there is no way Bioware is using the exact same toolset as they released simply because lots of things are simply not working or wrong. For example... Multiselect moving well force the objects to go back to a X.0 even if you had it on a 0.X location before.

[Arttis]

So just fix the problems of th old toolset as well as the new toolset.

[tommcc]

KalDurenik, of the things you could criticize the current toolset for, I didn't really think being "watered down" could be one of them. If anything, it hasn't been watered down enough; simple tasks are more complex than they really have to be. A good example being fact that most people end up reusing in-game levels, as opposed to creating their own.



I would trade some advanced features for extra usability, but that's just me.

[KalDurenik]

Well tbh the old toolset was a horrible fail and most likely Bioware know it also. And they will just let the oldtoolset die.

[Arttis]

If they let the old toolset die I am going to be a little mad....I am just gonna start trying to use it!

[KalDurenik]

tommcc wrote...

KalDurenik, of the things you could criticize the current toolset for, I didn't really think being "watered down" could be one of them. If anything, it hasn't been watered down enough; simple tasks are more complex than they really have to be. A good example being fact that most people end up reusing in-game levels, as opposed to creating their own.

I would trade some advanced features for extra usability, but that's just me.

Hmm what i meant is that Bioware clearly use another toolset with either more features or the correct "addons" for it. Like shadows (as a example). Its also not made for the average user.

Short list:
*Compiling a map takes HOURS the maps i was working on took about 12 hours to compile where i could do nothing on the computer because it would lag and crash the editor.
*The editor itself was very unstable
*No shadows and we had to use another free groups? WTF
*Multiselecting is a damn nightmare
*The object connecting and object list look like a 6 year old threw something together.
*The script editing is way to complex for a game like this.
*Conversation system is hardcoded into the game?.... The user should be allowed to create their own "conversation windows" That would reduce the cinematics people would have to do.
*No "this is the scale of the world"... The first time i made a map the scale was so wrong that it made me cry. There need to be a easy way to place a dumy or something.
*Please generate a pathing... Urgh there are better ways to do that. Instead we have to sit and wait while the engine calculate things that it should allready know -.-
*No phasing technology...?...?...?
There are more problems and it would take me another year to write them... But if bioware is using this toolset then it would explain why it take them so much time to create things.

[Maverick827]

It seems to me like your issues with the editor stem from a slow PC and a lack of computer programming knowledge.

Also, this game is module based. Module = phasing.

[Collider]

It seems there will be no toolset in order to force players (out of entirely malicious intent, I would posit) to play a watered down Mass Effect clone, out of spite.

[KalDurenik]

Maverick827 wrote...

It seems to me like your issues with the editor stem from a slow PC and a lack of computer programming knowledge.
Also, this game is module based. Module = phasing.

Nope and nope. And nope. Trust me... The thing i was working on before i threw it out the window... Urk. There is no phasing tech in this editor. Even one from Bioware told me that because i could not solve a problem.

[Peranor]

The toolset is very demanding. I have a Core2Duo and 4gb of RAM. And i have problem just editing my save files. If i try to edit a save file where im too far in the game the toolset craches now and then. I can just imagine what kind of hardware you need if you want to create your own maps and adventures.

[Arttis]

would a comp with 8gb ram and a 1g graphics do well?

[KalDurenik]

anorling wrote...

The toolset is very demanding. I have a Core2Duo and 4gb of RAM. And i have problem just editing my save files. If i try to edit a save file where im too far in the game the toolset craches now and then. I can just imagine what kind of hardware you need if you want to create your own maps and adventures.

Its because (if i remember correct) Bioware have another computer to compile their maps. Sadly the every day user dont. So we are stuck with horrible loading times and slow compiling. Like i said before it could be made alot better. That is why i think Bioware will stop supporting Dragon Age 1 Toolset.

[mjboldy]

I would hope that there is a toolset for DA2. It really extended the playability of DAO and while I never made any mods (one of these days I'll get it figured out), I definitely enjoyed the mods that people made. Especially the ones that fixed the glitches in DAO that Bioware still haven't really fixed (predominately involving Alistair and the end game results).

[dragon_83]

I don't care about the toolset anymore. After the release of DAO, I hoped that we will see a lot of new adventure moduls for the game. Just look at Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2, there are tons of great modules for that. For DAO, there are only a few worthwile, and even those fall short of the NWN adventures. But we see lots of nude mods, new character faces, redecorated armors, new weapons. But it's not the modders' fault. The DAO engine is much more complex than the Aurora engine was, so it is harder to create full maps, characters, stories for it. The toolset is also more difficult to handle, compared to the Aurora toolset. And I assume the DA2 toolset will be even more complex. So, as I said earlier, I don't care about it.

[Maverick827]

KalDurenik wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

It seems to me like your issues with the editor stem from a slow PC and a lack of computer programming knowledge.
Also, this game is module based. Module = phasing.

Nope and nope. And nope. Trust me... The thing i was working on before i threw it out the window... Urk. There is no phasing tech in this editor. Even one from Bioware told me that because i could not solve a problem.

"Nope?"  So you have extensive computer programing experience?  Yet you feel that event handlers and one of the easiest syntaxes in the business is "too difficult?"

Phasing can be easily synthesized by creating two versions of the same module and altering the "phased" module as you see fit.  An example of this would be Ostagar in the single player campaign and then later in RtO.

[KalDurenik]

O.o



Like i said horrible way of doing it. And doing what you suggest then i would have to work on the map for another 90 years. Alot of the things are made in a dumb way or simply it feel like the devs was thinking "What is the best way to make it ANNOYING to use this program?" That is why it failed... Ok one of the 100's of reasons

[Maverick827]

It's actually likely a more efficient method. You would have only one check, when the player loads the module, to see which version to load.

In World of Warcraft phasing, every object needs an "isVisible" check whenever the player gets within draw distance, and many scenery pieces can never be static, but rather dynamic.

Now, obviously a module setup wouldn't work for World of Warcraft, but when it dies work (e.g. Dragon Age) it's probably a net gain.

[KalDurenik]

Maverick827 wrote...

It's actually likely a more efficient method. You would have only one check, when the player loads the module, to see which version to load.
In World of Warcraft phasing, every object needs an "isVisible" check whenever the player gets within draw distance, and many scenery pieces can never be static, but rather dynamic.
Now, obviously a module setup wouldn't work for World of Warcraft, but when it dies work (e.g. Dragon Age) it's probably a net gain.

One great example (hey maybe they have fixed it now)... I had lots of things in a area I decided hey i need to move them 2.3 tiles to the right. Now the obvious thing is to simply just select all things in that area and move them right?
Sure it worked fine... Untill i zoomed in and noticed that all objects had reset themself to their "base" cordinates.. Woopie doo i was thinking as i had to replace all the objects in that zone for 2 hours.

But hey maybe im just horrible with the world editor. Maybe there are better and faster ways to do things but they are simply hidden in the editor. But for some reason i doubt it...

And i did try what you said... Untill i noticed i had to bug fix a thing on one of the maps... Then i had to do it again on 4 others... Then i gave up. (Hey its only a day or two for compiling them?)

Overall DA2 tool set need to work out of the box (download in this case)... I remember when they released it and there was a book long of issues with it (and some of them have not still been solved) its because we get a watered down version of it. -.-

Either make the toolset for the community or dont release it at all.

[JasonNH]

For my part, I don't have to look much further than the first thread in the Toolset General forum to set my expectations on this. I believe that Bioware had all the best intentions of creating a robust modding community with a well supported toolset initially, but the reality is that the priorities lie elsewhere and toolsets now appear to be a distant thought in the minds of those who make the final decisions.

Six months ago, we were given some hope that bug fixes and additional features would be coming. We were excited at the suggestion of more frequent communication from the devs about what we might expect and what they were working on. Ironically, it was pretty much the last word we received! We did get some helpful single player assets and individual contributions in specific threads, but nothing along the lines that were discussed in that thread, which is now over six months old.

Given the amount of buzz that was generated with DA:O through the builders conference and pre-launch of the game, followed by a very lackluster support of the toolset and means for hosting content, I'm not going to believe any of the marketing hype concerning a toolset for DA2 even if they do confirm it.

Modifié par JasonNH, 26 juillet 2010 - 01:35 .